Zack Snyder's Justice League Movie Review & Comments

Mr Lime

Distinguished Member
According to wiki the JL lost $60 million overall add the $70 they gave him and how do you know it’s not paid off, it was released less than a week ago are you privy to the accounts of WB and HBO max? And WW84 has obviously lost more $100 is greater than $60 last time I looked. You obviously don’t like Snyder and want maybe a more fluffy Marvel take on DC, I much prefer the darker story he brought to the universe and would love for him to continue, but no doubt WB will just try to copy Marvel and it won’t work because they have no overall vision of where to take their franchise unlike Marvel.
Firstly let's not go down the rabbit hole of you attempting to guess what I want to see or don't want to see, "fluffy" or otherwise? OK?

Also, please don't attempt to embroil me anything so childish as some sort of Marvel vs DC nonsense. Taking sides with a comic book company is not something that grown-ups tend to get involved with.

Once again 'WW84' may have lost more money in box office terms, but that must be balanced against it's budget and 'Justice League's budget and losses in order to calculate which was the bigger financial underperformer for Warner. Then you need to factor in other expenditure, such as promotional costs, etc, all of which have to be recouped at the box office. For example, Warner had an international promotions budget of $150 million for 'Justice League'. That's 3/4 (!) of the budget for filming 'WW84'. Anyway I'll leave you grab a calculator and have fun with all of that.

I've already answered your other points elsewhere, but I'll do you the courtesy of answering again.

I don't know which ""wiki" you used, but Warner's break even point for 'Justice League' was $750 million and it missed this target by £93 million - that's significantly more than your "wiki" figure.

And no, I'm not privvy to Warner's accounting, but Warner is privvy to it. If their gamble with the Snyder cut looked like it was paying off, then I'm sure that you wouldn't have been reading this a few days ago...

WB Says No DCEU SnyderVerse Future Plans Despite Justice League Popularity

And, just like I'm not privvy to their accounting, you're not privvy to what Warner's "overall vision" is for the future of their DC properties. Or perhaps I'm mistaken and you do have the skinny on this. If so, then please do share.

Likewise you are in no position to say if DC were to "copy Marvel" (whatever that means), whether that would work or not.

Ziss is vot vee scientists call "Wild, unfounded speculation".

Now you can continue to come back at me repeatedly with an endless stream of "but, but but"s and "what if"s, but that cannot change the fact that Warner have stated emphatically that the Snyderverse ends with the Snydercut. Only Warner can change that decision. I can't. So, lobby Warner on that one, not me.

Now, I've patiently answered every point you've raised as comprehensively as I can, so now I'm going to ask you to answer something for me.

In our original posts that started this exchange, you stated...

"WB are saying it didn't do very well, in fact worse than WW84! I call bull and they just don’t want to look bad.."

...and...

"They don’t want to admit they are wrong in what they did with Snyder, the egos at play are massive, just look at how they are dealing with the Cyborg/Whedon issue. If they gave the green light to a Snyder sequel it would show them up."

So, you're claiming that claiming that Warner have halted any further excursions into Snyderland, simply so as to not have to admit they were "wrong", are trying to save face and are attempting to cover this up with sundry excuses, etc.

So my question to you is, can you provide us with any evidence for these conclusions? Are you indeed "privvy" to the inner decision making in the Warner board room?

If so, please do share.
 
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Mr Lime

Distinguished Member
All this over one film, have you even watched it yet 🙄
LOL! I fear it's gone beyond a discussion of the merits or otherwise the film, as these things often do. Someone seems to think that by constantly arguing the toss with me, reality will suddenly be altered a la Scarlet Witch and 'Justice League' 2' will be on the cards.

And no I haven't seen it yet. Sometime I will I'm sure, but I'm in no rush to invest four hours in a Zack Snyder flick. "Once bitten..." and all that. ;)

And hello to all in Norn Iron! :)
 

Racquel Darrian

Distinguished Member
No, I don't have a figure for how much it's made to date. I'm going off the fact that Warner has said in the last few days that they will not be greenlighting any sequels or continuing in the "Snyderverse".

Studios are in the business to make money, not ars gratia artis. Accordingly their accountants will have analysed the performance to date, factoring in the performance of the theatrical release where the lion's share of the budget, lay (a break even point of $750 million and failed by $93 million), made their projections based on this, along with any future projected revenue streams, and that has informed the decision not to proceed.

I think it's safe to say that if this was a potential money maker for them, they'd be signing everyone up for the sequels as we speak.

As it is, they took a gamble by throwing another $70 million at the Snyder cut and that obviously isn't delivering what they expected, hence their decision at this early stage to put the kibosh on any further adventures in Snyderland.

WB Says No DCEU SnyderVerse Future Plans Despite Justice League Popularity
Just to point out that link is from six days ago.
Since then #restorethesnyderverse broke the record for tweets sending a clear message it's what the fans want.
WB said that the Snyder Cut wasn't going to happen. Look what did happen?
At the end of the day you've got to give the people what they want.
Watch this space.
 

rampant

Well-known Member
watched the snyder cut over the weekend and for me it was a completely changed movie... lots more of it made SENSE ... superman revival was so much better, the overall story flowed better and it just felt a much better film. The ending was far superior than the original. sure there are still flaws, but overall a much better movie.
 

Mr Lime

Distinguished Member
Just to point out that link is from six days ago.
Since then #restorethesnyderverse broke the record for tweets sending a clear message it's what the fans want.
WB said that the Snyder Cut wasn't going to happen. Look what did happen?
At the end of the day you've got to give the people what they want.
Watch this space.
OK. Watching. I'll get back to you.
 

maverick177uk

Distinguished Member
Firstly let's not go down the rabbit hole of you attempting to guess what I want to see or don't want to see, "fluffy" or otherwise? OK?

Also, please don't attempt to embroil me anything so childish as some sort of Marvel vs DC nonsense. Taking sides with a comic book company is not something that grown-ups tend to get involved with.

Once again 'WW84' may have lost more money in box office terms, but that must be balanced against it's budget and 'Justice League's budget and losses in order to calculate which was the bigger financial underperformer for Warner. Then you need to factor in other expenditure, such as promotional costs, etc, all of which have to be recouped at the box office. For example, Warner had an international promotions budget of $150 million for 'Justice League'. That's 3/4 (!) of the budget for filming 'WW84'. Anyway I'll leave you grab a calculator and have fun with all of that.

I've already answered your other points elsewhere, but I'll do you the courtesy of answering again.

I don't know which ""wiki" you used, but Warner's break even point for 'Justice League' was $750 million and it missed this target by £93 million - that's significantly more than your "wiki" figure.

And no, I'm not privvy to Warner's accounting, but Warner is privvy to it. If their gamble with the Snyder cut looked like it was paying off, then I'm sure that you wouldn't have been reading this a few days ago...

WB Says No DCEU SnyderVerse Future Plans Despite Justice League Popularity

And, just like I'm not privvy to their accounting, you're not privvy to what Warner's "overall vision" is for the future of their DC properties. Or perhaps I'm mistaken and you do have the skinny on this. If so, then please do share.

Likewise you are in no position to say if DC were to "copy Marvel" (whatever that means), whether that would work or not.

Ziss is vot vee scientists call "Wild, unfounded speculation".

Now you can continue to come back at me repeatedly with an endless stream of "but, but but"s and "what if"s, but that cannot change the fact that Warner have stated emphatically that the Snyderverse ends with the Snydercut. Only Warner can change that decision. I can't. So, lobby Warner on that one, not me.

Now, I've patiently answered every point you've raised as comprehensively as I can, so now I'm going to ask you to answer something for me.

In our original posts that started this exchange, you stated...

"WB are saying it didn't do very well, in fact worse than WW84! I call bull and they just don’t want to look bad.."

...and...

"They don’t want to admit they are wrong in what they did with Snyder, the egos at play are massive, just look at how they are dealing with the Cyborg/Whedon issue. If they gave the green light to a Snyder sequel it would show them up."

So, you're claiming that claiming that Warner have halted any further excursions into Snyderland, simply so as to not have to admit they were "wrong", are trying to save face and are attempting to cover this up with sundry excuses, etc.

So my question to you is, can you provide us with any evidence for these conclusions? Are you indeed "privvy" to the inner decision making in the Warner board room?

If so, please do share.
You really are quite condescending aren’t you, the whole DC vs Marvel is childish! I’ve never said one against the other I love both franchises. It’s quite plain to everyone who saw the Joss cut the stuff he filmed extra stuff for comedic lighter tone value “flash falling on Wonder Woman” to give the film a lighter tone like the Avengers film who they were playing catch-up with. If that wasn’t the case why didn’t Whedon just use the stuff already shot by Snyder?
You go on about box office takings
Justice League premiered in Los Angeles on November 13, 2017, and was released in the United States on November 17, 2017. The film grossed over $657 million worldwide against a break-even point of $750 million, becoming a box-office bomb and losing Warner Bros. Pictures an estimated $60 million.
That’s from Justice League (film) - Wikipedia
Of course I’m not privy to anything going on at WB but I am old enough to see when management screw up and try to slop shoulders so they don’t look bad, they messed up with this and by all accounts the Ayer cut of suicide squad is far superior which they won’t do. Instead of choosing their own path they are trying to copy and catch-up the Marvel franchise and failing miserably with constant reboots.
also kind of strange you are criticising something you’ve not even watched! To be honest there would be no point as it’s quite clear you don’t like Snyder and his work.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Yeah I found "another" version ;) which I will almost certainly watch again. The initial Wonder Woman and Amazons intro needs much more editing, Snyder's sound track selection is poor and I can pick a few more things that could have been better. But overall this is a great movie and I can't wait to watch it in HDR and hopefully with Dolby Atmos.
When I watched the first Wonder Woman film I really didn't like it. It took a second look for me to appreciate how good the film actually is. The same thing has happened with the initial Wonder Woman segment here. I still think Gal could have done a better job, but I think I will use the technical term here and describe her as looking "seriously badass".

So ...Batman v Superman : Ultimate Edition

Theres an amazing film hidden in here somewhere. The establishment of Batma/Bruce Wayne in this universe is immaculate, and dealing with consequences of MoS is considered and realistic. The initial questioning of Superman’s actions and the Senste hearings is well considered and should have been MoS2. But in the background there is some dense plotting, and not in a good way, because the reason it’s dense is because there are so many contrivances that the story is trying to justify.
I remember saying that I might watch the ultimate edition if the Snyder Cut was good enough. The Snyder Cut is good enough but I'm not sure I want to spend 3 hours watching a film that fixes the first half but still leaves the second half of the film as a jumbled mess. Your review seems to confirm my suspicions. My one positive memory from that film was Wonder Woman's entrance. I'm hoping that by some miracle there is a kind of a Snyder Cut for BvS when they release the IMAX edition.
 
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Mr Lime

Distinguished Member
You really are quite condescending aren’t you, the whole DC vs Marvel is childish! I’ve never said one against the other I love both franchises. It’s quite plain to everyone who saw the Joss cut the stuff he filmed extra stuff for comedic lighter tone value “flash falling on Wonder Woman” to give the film a lighter tone like the Avengers film who they were playing catch-up with. If that wasn’t the case why didn’t Whedon just use the stuff already shot by Snyder?
You go on about box office takings
Justice League premiered in Los Angeles on November 13, 2017, and was released in the United States on November 17, 2017. The film grossed over $657 million worldwide against a break-even point of $750 million, becoming a box-office bomb and losing Warner Bros. Pictures an estimated $60 million.
That’s from Justice League (film) - Wikipedia
Of course I’m not privy to anything going on at WB but I am old enough to see when management screw up and try to slop shoulders so they don’t look bad, they messed up with this and by all accounts the Ayer cut of suicide squad is far superior which they won’t do. Instead of choosing their own path they are trying to copy and catch-up the Marvel franchise and failing miserably with constant reboots.
also kind of strange you are criticising something you’ve not even watched! To be honest there would be no point as it’s quite clear you don’t like Snyder and his work.

So the short answer is, no you don't have any evidence whatsoever to support your initial assertions and it is, yet again, totally unfounded speculation. Glad we sorted that one out.

Someone on Wikipedia clearly needs to brush up on their maths. 750 million minus 657 million = 93 million (the figure I quoted you), not 60 million. I told you to grab a calculator, didn't I?

Have a butcher's at this while you're at it...

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source - Wikipedia.

And what "constant reboots" are these "that DC keep "failing miserably" with? Have I missed a few films or something?

Oh and as regards "...also kind of strange you are criticising something you’ve not even watched!"

Point me to where I have given any opinion on the Snyder cut of the film. Go on... I'll wait.
 
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bash

Well-known Member
Oh, in the name of all that is good and holy please shut up Lime and Co!
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
You really have a quite unique view of film studio executives. Like for example, you seem to think that they'd let little things like embarrassment, or making a wrong decision stand in the way of raking in another half-billion dollars or so.

It's quite simple. The film cost $370 million dollars to make and that's before any marketing and other associated costs are taken into account. and film making/marketing being what it is, the film would have to make several times that amount to be considered a success. It's not gong to make anywhere what it needs to make to justify sequels, even with home media sales, so they're not going to fork out for a sequel.

No exotic conspiracy theory required. ;)
I haven't looked at the rest of your discussion but your second paragraph makes total sense but is not what's actually happening. Your first paragraph is a little naive and ties directly with the first.

Let's deal with the second paragraph first.

It's quite simple. The film cost $370 million dollars to make and that's before any marketing and other associated costs are taken into account. and film making/marketing being what it is, the film would have to make several times that amount to be considered a success. It's not gong to make anywhere what it needs to make to justify sequels, even with home media sales, so they're not going to fork out for a sequel.
Hamada doesn't want sequels because he wants to implement his vision and as studio head that is his right. The Snyderverse is not his vision. The CEO doesn't want it because she has decided that the fans are "toxic" although in reality I'm sure there are other reasons. Financials may have something to do with this but it's pretty obvious that in Hollywood, politics matter and egos matter more. This brings us to your first paragraph.

You really have a quite unique view of film studio executives. Like for example, you seem to think that they'd let little things like embarrassment, or making a wrong decision stand in the way of raking in another half-billion dollars or so.
It's like asking why Lucasfilm would pull the rug out from under the only part of Star Wars that is currently making money and is both a critical and audience success. Politics and ego.

So while your arguments make total sense they ignore the reality of the situation.
 
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Mr Lime

Distinguished Member
Well, let's deal with one of your paragraphs, shall we?

"Hamada doesn't want sequels because he wants to implement his vision and as studio head that is is right. The Snyderverse is not his vision."

Has Hamada actually stated this or is this speculation? Link please if there's been a statement to this effect.

"The CEO doesn't want it because she has decided that the fans are "toxic" although in reality I'm sure there are other reasons."

Again, has the CEO actually said this or is it more speculation on your part (or worse still, fannish speculation?) Again a link would be good if such a statement has been made.

"Financials may have something to do with this but it's pretty obvious that in Hollywood, politics matter and egos matter more."

Indeed, but again nothing concrete here either, just maybes and opinion.

So you see, your comments are no less speculative than my response to Maverick, although I have attempted to base mine on available concrete evidence and on my own experience of people in the industry, in a former life. That was in the part that you removed from my original comment for some reason.

No interest in 'Star Wars' whatsoever, so not a clue what you're talking about.
 

maverick177uk

Distinguished Member
So the short answer is, no you don't have any evidence whatsoever to support your initial assertions and it is, yet again, totally unfounded speculation. Glad we sorted that one out.

Someone on Wikipedia clearly needs to brush up on their maths. 750 million minus 657 million = 93 million (the figure I quoted you), not 60 million. I told you to grab a calculator, didn't I?

Have a butcher's at this while you're at it...

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source - Wikipedia.

And what "constant reboots" are these "that DC keep "failing miserably" with? Have a missed a few films or something?

Oh and as regards "...also kind of strange you are criticising something you’ve not even watched!"

Point me to where I have given any opinion on the Snyder cut of the film. Go on... I'll wait.
and you have zero evidence apart from your “I worked in the industry” well so did I, I was a medic on a film and various tv shows, doesn’t make me an expert, so nothing concrete there. As for reboots well let’s start with Superman Returns, now there’s another Batman, after only just getting Batfleck! No doubt they will want another JL as well otherwise because if Flashpoint follows the story then you’ll have multiple of the characters, leading to more reboots, there’s a reason Abrams is at Warner now doing Superman.
Why are you even in a thread about a film you've not seen have no desire to see, seems you just have an agenda against Snyder.
seems wiki isn’t so far off on box office either
 

gavinhanly

Distinguished Member
I think you'd have better luck trying to convert an anti-vaxxer than you would getting Mr Lime to change his mind on the Snyderverse. Tis a fool's errand.
 

QuestShield

Distinguished Member
I think you'd have better luck trying to convert an anti-vaxxer than you would getting Mr Lime to change his mind on the Snyderverse. Tis a fool's errand.

Truth. He also thinks Henry Cavill resembles a block of wood. When he sees him as Superman what he really sees is "Plankman".
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Well, let's deal with one of your paragraphs, shall we?

"Hamada doesn't want sequels because he wants to implement his vision and as studio head that is is right. The Snyderverse is not his vision."

Has Hamada actually stated this or is this speculation? Link please if there's been a statement to this effect.

"The CEO doesn't want it because she has decided that the fans are "toxic" although in reality I'm sure there are other reasons."

Again, has the CEO actually said this or is it more speculation on your part (or worse still, fannish speculation?) Again a link would be good if such a statement has been made.

"Financials may have something to do with this but it's pretty obvious that in Hollywood, politics matter and egos matter more."

Indeed, but again nothing concrete here either, just maybes and opinion.

So you see, your comments are no less speculative than my response to Maverick, although I have attempted to base mine on available concrete evidence and on my own experience of people in the industry, in a former life. That was in the part that you removed from my original comment for some reason.

No interest in 'Star Wars' whatsoever, so not a clue what you're talking about.
My view of Hamada is logical but more importantly he specifically omits any mention of it in his plans for DC's future in this New York Times article. The article goes on to say that DC executives see Snyder's JL as a narrative "cut-de-sac"

Then Anne Sarnoff, the CEO of WB comments in this Variety article on how they are "done with this" and how they are moving forward with the multiverse vision which is Hamada's DC vision. She also implies that fans of the Snyderverse have a "toxic side" and those fans are "reprehensible". She could have worded it in any other way but deliberately left it vague enough for people to fill in the gaps.

So when the President omits any mention of a future for the Snyderverse and instead only talks about "his" multiverse vision you may argue that that's still not proof. But then the CEO/Chairman specifically states that the Snyderverse is "done" and that she is following the same multiverse vision?

My arguments are based on the words and actions of both the President and CEO of WB. What are yours based on? That's a serious question by the way.

Anyway, unless AT&T forces them to continue with the Snyderverse on the big screen like they did with the Snyder cut then the only option left is HBO Max. After seeing the Snydercut, I personally think this might be the better option.

I'm no Snyder junkie. I think his limitations as a director are sometimes glaring like his cloth ear for dialogue. I didn't see the point of a Snyder cut and while I love Man of Steel, I think the theatrical cut of BvS is a pile of dog doings. But his Justice League with all its faults shows that he has clarity of vision even if his execution is sometimes a little off. I hope they continue with the Snyderverse.
 
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steve sph

Well-known Member
Wow - I had no idea grown men took cartoon character films so seriously - this truly is comedy gold and a welcome distraction from my toaster bursting into flames and cremating my lunchtime crumpets.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Wow - I had no idea grown men took cartoon character films so seriously - this truly is comedy gold and a welcome distraction from my toaster bursting into flames and cremating my lunchtime crumpets.
Judging by this comment I guess your toaster knew exactly what it was doing ;)
 

gavinhanly

Distinguished Member
Then Anne Sarnoff, the CEO of WB comments in this Variety article on how they are "done with this" and how they are moving forward with the multiverse vision which is Hamada's DC vision. She also implies that fans of the Snyderverse have a "toxic side" and those fans are "reprehensible". She could have worded it in any other way but deliberately left it vague enough for people to fill in the gaps.
Sorry - but the exact quote is:

There’s also been a toxic side to the fandom, with reports that critics and some of your executives have received threats for not endorsing the Snyder Cut or for being perceived as standing in the way of its release. What’s your reaction to that behavior?

We’re not tolerating any of that. That behavior is reprehensible no matter what franchise you’re talking about or what business you’re talking about. It’s completely unacceptable. I’m very disappointed in the fans that have chosen to go to that negative place with regard to DC, with regard to some of our executives. It’s just disappointing because we want this to be a safe place to be. We want DC to be a fandom that feels safe and inclusive. We want people to be able to speak up for the things they love, but we don’t want it to be a culture of cancelling things that any small faction isn’t happy with. We are not about that. We are about positivity and celebration.


Question asked by the interviewer and answered. She doesn't mention toxic fans herself but is asked about them (as they obviously exist). So it's not implied at all, more that you've somehow inferred that she's talking about all fans.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Sorry - but the exact quote is:

There’s also been a toxic side to the fandom, with reports that critics and some of your executives have received threats for not endorsing the Snyder Cut or for being perceived as standing in the way of its release. What’s your reaction to that behavior?

We’re not tolerating any of that. That behavior is reprehensible no matter what franchise you’re talking about or what business you’re talking about. It’s completely unacceptable. I’m very disappointed in the fans that have chosen to go to that negative place with regard to DC, with regard to some of our executives. It’s just disappointing because we want this to be a safe place to be. We want DC to be a fandom that feels safe and inclusive. We want people to be able to speak up for the things they love, but we don’t want it to be a culture of cancelling things that any small faction isn’t happy with. We are not about that. We are about positivity and celebration.


Question asked by the interviewer and answered. She doesn't mention toxic fans herself but is asked about them (as they obviously exist). So it's not implied at all, more that you've somehow inferred that she's talking about all fans.
Which is why I said:
She also implies that fans of the Snyderverse have a "toxic side" and those fans are "reprehensible". She could have worded it in any other way but deliberately left it vague enough for people to fill in the gaps.
The only difference is that I recognise the deliberate wordiness talking about a toxic side but then spending a whole paragraph vaguely implying something more general than just a few fans. There's a context here that every single article referring to it understands even if you don't. Worse has been said and done by shippers of Rey and Kylo Ren (called Rey ReyLos) including multiple death threats, yet somehow I don't see that mentioned anywhere. Funny how that works.
 
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