Young people not so proud of being English

It tends to be those on the left or those that vote for them that are against any form of patriotism, nationalism, pride or whatever else you want to call it. Who do you tend to vote for?
Exactly. Nothing new about football hooliganism.

I'm not against patriotism? My point all along has been that the English flag and the displaying of it has been given a bad reputation as a direct result of groups like football hooligans and Britain First etc. You can't blame those that see it negatively and ignore those that are abusing it with their supposed 'patriotism'.
 
It tends to be those on the left or those that vote for them that are against any form of patriotism, nationalism, pride or whatever else you want to call it. Who do you tend to vote for?

I can't speak for 'the left', only for myself as slightly left of centre - however, I am reasonably sure that I am not alone in feeling how I do, that is as follows:

That being proud can be good, bad or a mixture of both. It can be tinged with joy, sadness or a mixture of both.
It can lead to acts of courage, blind stupidity or a mixture of both.
The history of our country, wars, legal and social systems are rife with examples of things to be both proud of and things to be ashamed of.
We can be proud of the selfless sacrifices and actions of individuals, while ashamed by the need, actions or decisions by others that lead them to having to.

Pride without being tempered by humility and reflection can and often does lead to acts of shame.

There are people who only see the pride and people who only see the shame - both can and often do lead to polarised and skewed perspectives that are the cause of social injustice, prejudice, hostility and violence within our societies and our interactions with others.

Any individual human being can feel proud of aspects of their countries history, of other individuals or heroes and of the progress that society has made, but that does not mean they should feel that because they are a descendant of that history/society, that it makes them superior to an individual from another country, society, group or belief system. Nor should someone who feels ashamed of their countries history believe themselves or individuals from their own group/nation are worse than any others.
 
There are people who only see the pride and people who only see the shame -
.

Exactly, you surely shouldn't have one without the other. Personally, pride, and shame, is a personal thing relating to your own achievements and those you have had direct involvement in. I feel no need to rewrite it's definition. Feeling shame or pride for the actions of others, that I have zero involvement in, is just bizarre.
 
With regards to a new anthem for England it would probably be more appropriate to make no mention of god or the monarchy imho..
Welsh national anthem - "Land of my Fathers." Not inclusive is it? What about any migrants now living in Wales? Also seems a little warlike.

Scottish National Anthem - Flower of Scotland
Also talks of war and not inclusive.

"But we can still rise now,
And be the nation again,
That stood against him,
Proud Edward's Army,
And sent him homeward,
Tae think again."

We could use this:



Shouldn't offend anyone.
I think what annoys people is that to celebrate England or being English is seen to be jingoistic but it is ok to celebrate everything else (you only have to look at the stupid hats dished out in pubs on St Patricks Day to see that)
Ken Livingstone as London mayor used to throw money at celebrating St Patrick's day in London but wouldn't celebrate St George's day. In the nation's capital!
 
I'm not against patriotism? My point all along has been that the English flag and the displaying of it has been given a bad reputation as a direct result of groups like football hooligans and Britain First etc. You can't blame those that see it negatively and ignore those that are abusing it with their supposed 'patriotism'.
So isn't the idea about "taking it back?" If you were a Muslim and terrorists were saying being a Muslim was what they were doing, would you do nothing? Accept being a Muslim was shown as being a negative image?
There's nothing new about being English either?
There is something new about the resurgence of displaying England. Hence the posts above regarding Scottish devolution, England flags rather than Union Flags etc.

Again, go back in time to '66 and it would have been Union Flags at the World Cup. For this one it will be England flags.
 
Feeling shame or pride for the actions of others, that I have zero involvement in, is just bizarre.
Agree, sort of. I've always been against those singing "two world wars and one world cup," as I wasn't involved in any of it.

Same as on the football threads I wonder at those who boast about "their" team winning something and being better than anothers. Their team won it, not them.
 
You are born in a country which your forefathers developed and it has a distinct culture. You are proud to be part of that. It's not specific to England. The same goes for all countries. Its citizens are proud to represent their country.
 
Welsh national anthem - "Land of my Fathers." Not inclusive is it? What about any migrants now living in Wales? Also seems a little warlike.

Scottish National Anthem - Flower of Scotland
Also talks of war and not inclusive.

Ken Livingstone as London mayor used to throw money at celebrating St Patrick's day in London but wouldn't celebrate St George's day. In the nation's capital!

From looking around the world and within the UK, the two biggest factors that seem to generate passion for celebrating things like national saints days or other similar celebrations are:

1) being an ex-pat community.
2) being a historically conquered and/or suppressed culture.

St Patrick's day is a bigger thing pretty much every else than in Ireland especially in the US, the same goes for Cinco de Mayo which is not a big thing in Mexico yet is massive in the US.
The English suppressed the Welsh language and culture, so it is hardly surprising that in modern times there is a greater interest in celebrating and not loosing it.

For the English themselves, the influence of the language and culture is on the majority of the world is unmistakable, which has often led to complacency and simple lack of interest in feeling the need to have special days to highlight and celebrate that language and culture.

We sort of just take it all for granted because a large chunk of the worlds communications, literature, art, film, business and politics is done in our language and based upon our culture. Hence for most people, St George's Day hasn't been a particularly big thing.
 
Hence for most people, St George's Day hasn't been a particularly big thing.

Not to mention that the idea of some Greek bloke slaying an imaginary creature with a pointy stick is a ridiculous thing to be celebrating in this green and pleasant land.
Without free movement of conquerors, we wouldn't have a patron saint
 
Not defending him at all but do you really think that is usual....the legal profession would be crying over the lost revenue...
Would have looked better if they had arrested him for contempt of court as well....

The correct legal procedures were followed. Robinson knew precisely what he was doing and the attention he'd gain.

Point still stands that they have added ammo to the far rights cause

The Far Right are merely taking advantage of people's ignorance of contempt of court laws (which are designed to prevent trials from collapsing due to juries being unduly influenced etc) and as I said Robinson knows precisely what he's doing. No doubt once he's out of Prison he'll try the same thing again. I just hope he doesn't collapse a trial with his actions.


Not to mention that the idea of some Greek bloke slaying an imaginary creature with a pointy stick is a ridiculous thing to be celebrating in this green and pleasant land.
Without free movement of conquerors, we wouldn't have a patron saint

Guess we'd better stop hoping for a return of King Arthur to return to slay the dragon that is the EU....
 
Guess we'd better stop hoping for a return of King Arthur to return to slay the dragon that is the EU....

It would explain Rees Smug's antiquated views. King Arthur reborn!
 
From looking around the world and within the UK, the two biggest factors that seem to generate passion for celebrating things like national saints days or other similar celebrations are:

1) being an ex-pat community.
2) being a historically conquered and/or suppressed culture.
If we are talking about patriotism for generating passion rather than specifically St Days, well the most patriotic nation I can think of is the US and then the rest of your argument falls flat.
 
From looking around the world and within the UK, the two biggest factors that seem to generate passion for celebrating things like national saints days or other similar celebrations are:

1) being an ex-pat community.
2) being a historically conquered and/or suppressed culture.
That is very true. I've been an expat all my life and have celebrated Burns night in Libya and elsewhere, St Patricks day in Australia where the beer turns green for the day, and every other national day. Can't say I have ever celebrated St Georges day because IMHO it verging on being a bit fake. (bit like Morris dancing- but let's leave that one..;).)

Other foreigners have pointed out that we in England don't have an independence day! Now the list of countries that I have been in where I have joined in celebrating their independence is too long to list!
 
Not to mention that the idea of some Greek bloke slaying an imaginary creature with a pointy stick is a ridiculous thing to be celebrating in this green and pleasant land.
Without free movement of conquerors, we wouldn't have a patron saint

I note Wiki has him as Greek. As I understand it St George was a Roman soldier who was tortured to death in the Holy Land around 300AD for refusing to renounce his faith.

Richard The Lionheart felt he should be a good model for his troops. So as with anything else, we can blame the French.

Apart from this much of the rest of his life remains shrouded in mystery and his nationality is uncertain although he was possibly Turkish or Palestinian.

He certainly wasn't English but then St Patrick isn't Irish and St Andrew isn't a Scot.
 
This was where I get the Turkish/Palestine connection from:

BBC - Religions - Christianity: Saint George

  • Born in Cappadocia, an area which is now in Turkey
  • Lived in 3rd century AD
  • His parents were Christian
  • Later lived in Palestine
  • Became a Roman soldier
  • Protested against Rome's persecution of Christians
  • Imprisoned and tortured, but stayed true to his faith
  • Beheaded at Lydda in Palestine
  • 23rd April was named as Saint George's day in 1222
Just noticed that link is flawed, it says this:

Henry V
In 1415 Archbishop Chicele promoted the feast of Saint George to principal status after Henry V's speech at the Battle of Agincourt invoking Saint George as England's patron saint.

The line they mean was from Henry V fighting at Harfleur and earlier in the play:

Follow your spirit, and upon this charge
Cry 'God for Harry, England, and Saint George!'
 
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If we are talking about patriotism for generating passion rather than specifically St Days, well the most patriotic nation I can think of is the US and then the rest of your argument falls flat.

Not really, since:

a) the US is a country founded upon and filled with immigrants.
b) it's a relatively new country that has no long term history or culture except for that of the indigenous population which was pretty much destroyed.

Ergo, give them another couple of thousand years and I doubt they'll be making such a big hoo-har about Independance from the British or what ever else for that matter.
 
Everything about Saint George is dubious, so the information below should be taken as mythical rather than real.
  • Born in Cappadocia, an area which is now in Turkey
  • Lived in 3rd century AD
  • His parents were Christian
  • Later lived in Palestine
  • Became a Roman soldier
  • Protested against Rome's persecution of Christians
  • Imprisoned and tortured, but stayed true to his faith
  • Beheaded at Lydda in Palestine
  • 23rd April was named as Saint George's day in 1222

I noticed you missed out the a rather critical piece of information so I've popped it back in for you :)
 
The correct legal procedures were followed. Robinson knew precisely what he was doing and the attention he'd gain.
That could well be the case...Think he has achieved plenty of attention ,wouldn't you agree
The Far Right are merely taking advantage of people's ignorance of contempt of court laws (which are designed to prevent trials from collapsing due to juries being unduly influenced etc
Well seeing you want to quote me i will respond :hiya:
The reporting restrictions were put in place to stop juries being unduly influenced,contempt of court is the offence he committed by being there in defiance of the court order ,which is the offence of contempt...
Others filmed outside of the court during the trial as well...
If you would like to research contempt of court laws feel free as they were designed for no such thing...If they were designed with that in mind every jury trial would have a reporting restriction wouldn't it..
It would appear a lot more than just the right wing are ignorant of contempt of court laws...

Do wish people could understand the difference between lawful and legal :rolleyes:
 
More like King Canute (or Cnut, for accuracy's sake)

Canute was making a point about not being able to hold back the tide.

23rd June.

I'd put it as the day King Charles I got his head lopped off, that marks the moment in English History where the Monarchy's power went into terminal decline.
 
Not really, since:

a) the US is a country founded upon and filled with immigrants.
b) it's a relatively new country that has no long term history or culture except for that of the indigenous population which was pretty much destroyed.

Ergo, give them another couple of thousand years and I doubt they'll be making such a big hoo-har about Independance from the British or what ever else for that matter.

This was your line with the US inserted. I don't think it works.

"For the US themselves, the influence of their culture on the majority of the world is unmistakable, which has often led to complacency and simple lack of interest in feeling the need to have special days to highlight and celebrate that culture.

They sort of just take it all for granted because a large chunk of the worlds communications, literature, art, film, business and politics is done in their language and based upon their culture."

I removed your reference to language as I'm taking that to be English though even there their version of English is pretty dominant.

Hollywood and their huge TV output is a culture. Try finding any film or TV series on terrestrial TV, Netflix, Sky, Amazon, that isn't US or literature or regarding music that isn't also dominated by US culture or find a High Street that doesn't have a McDonalds.

And they celebrate Thanksgiving and Independence. In fact when I was in the US they seemed surprised we didn't also celebrate it.
 

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