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You guys are not doing enough to comply with Kyoto

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by Master Rahl, May 11, 2005.

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  1. Master Rahl

    Master Rahl
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    OK guys, I'm sorry to say, you're not doing enough to comply with Kyoto!!

    GOAL: European Union is committed to an 8% reduction in emissions (1990 levels).

    The way this works is that some EU countries have advantages due to nuclear power (UK, France) and hydroelectricity (Scandinavia). Other countries are not so fortunate. While the bigger countries (UK, France, Germany) may meet some of Kyoto's goals (lets assume they do), the smaller countries will completely wipe it out.

    - 12 EU nations are on target to breach the target
    - 9 of the 12 are doing a great job at NOT complying with Kyoto, having INCREASED emissions by 20 to 77%!!

    So what happens if the EU as a collective does not meat the targets in 2012? Article 4 of the Kyoto protocol covers that by saying that the responsibility then falls to each member nation to reduce their emissions by 8%. See the goal here was to have the UK, France, and Germany reduce their emissions to balance against the increased emissions of the other countries. But the big three didn't cut enough, and the others increased their emissions too much.

    The Emissions Trading Scheme is, of course, the basket with all the EU eggs in it. With this scheme, countries can trade quotas with each other. The problem here is that if the 2012 goal is not met, THIS SCHEME BECOMES INAPPLICABLE. And Europe is on course to breach their goals spectacularly.

    What happens then, if emissions quotas can't be traded? Well, each country will be punished and be forced to make deep, deep cuts. I'd like to see what that is going to do to the booming European economy.


    Italy has recently withdrawn from Kyoto (post 2012 only though).

    In Spain, reported on May 5, "Given the circumstances, the Environment Minister, Cristina Narbona, had no alternative and recognized yesterday that the conditions where Spain stands in order to fulfill the mandates derived from Kyoto 'could not be worse'. However she promised that the Spanish government will continue working with the aim of reducing the cost of that bill." Expensive, eh? HAHA.


    So verdict? You need to do more. My question now to those that support Kyoto: would you support additional taxes on gas (petrol), natural gas, coal, and other dirty stuff to discourage people from using it? Say another 10p of tax per liter of petrol? And what about additional fees to those factories that pollute so much (which will be passed on to the consumer, of course, so people will just buy less)?
     
  2. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    Rather than moaning about Europe not entirely keeping up with the Kyoto Treaty surely it would be better to persuade the worlds heaviest polluter to actually sign up for it? :confused:

    No doubt you're aware of this and are just trying to spark controversy though...
     
  3. mjn

    mjn
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    Exactly!!

    Pot.....kettle......
     
  4. alexs2

    alexs2
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    Surely this is a wind-up from our old friend Mr Rahl,who drives a somewhat gas-hungry car,and lives not a million miles away from one the world's best known exporters of pollutants....not to mention one that has troubles signing up to the protocol in the first place.

    "So verdict? You need to do more. My question now to those that support Kyoto: would you support additional taxes on gas (petrol), natural gas, coal, and other dirty stuff to discourage people from using it? Say another 10p of tax per liter of petrol? "

    How about asking those that havent signed up to tax your fuel a bit more,given that we have some of the highest fuel taxation levels in the world right here,and the U.S.could surely go some way towards implementing that itself.

    One could put one's own house in order prior to advising others about theirs.
     
  5. mrtbag

    mrtbag
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    :mad: That really wants me to start a thread for our American counterparts. It will be titled:

    You guys are not doing enough for world peace.

    Or

    You guys are not doing enough to stop people getting killed by 'Friendly' fire

    Or even better

    You guys are not doing enough to comply with the Geneva Convention.
     
  6. GrahamC

    GrahamC
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    Stuff Kyoto and when they fine us say stuff that to. Close the boarders cut off all links with th.......... There always be an England.....(repeat to fade).... :rotfl:
     
  7. alexs2

    alexs2
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    I think it also falls under the heading of "trolling" ..... guaranteed to get a few replies,and annoy a few people,plus divert attention from one of the biggest parts of the global warming/pollution issue.
     
  8. Bristol Pete

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    Watch what you are saying mate, or the old U S of A will try and invade Bath and bomb the **** out of you on Rahls orders....:rotfl:

    Rahl, what you talking about man. These countries are not even in Europe... :confused: Watch more TV man and educate yourself like the rest of America. :lesson:
     
  9. eviljohn2

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    :laugh:
    If I can postpone it for a while I move away to an undisclosed location in less than 2 months. :)

    Spain is in Europe. :confused:
     
  10. richjthorpe

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    Like to see the US even try to cut polution by 8%.
     
  11. Dr Diversity

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    Or you guys are not doing enough to keep your waistlines under a metre - and that is just the females!
     
  12. alexs2

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    Given the size of the US and it's oil consumption etc,if it reduced it's own outputs by even 4%,the overall reduction in global terms would be significant...as I said before,Mr Rahl should look closer to home before having a bash at Europe.
     
  13. chard

    chard
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    surely the point is that the USA stayed out of Kyoto because it was an unworkable treaty.....in the failings of countries to meet its demands they have been proven correct.
     
  14. alexs2

    alexs2
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    I must say that I felt the real point of this is that whilst the US may have stayed out on account of the treaty being unworkable,it certainly hasn't put itself out to reduce the scale of the problem,and the original post seemed engineered to annoy rather than serve any useful purpose,given that the US seems to have little if any will to do anything(even in the form of a treaty or words)about it.

    I still feel that Mr Rahl would do better to look to rather larger local polluters than to Europe.
     
  15. Master Rahl

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    I don't think guys understand: I'm against Kyoto. However, I'm anxious to see the responses to those that do support Kyoto, without using the word American. This is about YOU critisizing the United States for not complying, but it seems you yourself are not complying either.
     
  16. Nobber22

    Nobber22
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    So the UK is actually on target? Er...Rahl, you do realise this is a UK Chat Room? :hiya:

    Go bother an Italian or Spanish Bulletin Board! :thumbsdow
     
  17. Master Rahl

    Master Rahl
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    Thank you chard.

    No. This is not about the United States. If you want to discuss that, go elsewhere. I am anxious to hear your solution to the problem Europe is facing: not meeting Kyoto's guidelines. Everyone is bashing the United States for not signing up, but what use is signing up if you're ignoring it anyways?
     
  18. mrtbag

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    With the distinct difference being, we're trying, you're not. I agree that there should be something better that Kyoto. But having something is better than having nothing.
     
  19. Master Rahl

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    Actually, this is about the European Union not meeting the goals. You guys, as in Europeans, are not meeting the goals. And now I'm rather anxious to know how you will solve this problem. Last time I checked the UK is in the European Union, which means you have to deal with the problem, especially since your PM will address the G8 later this year (as the President) and noted that climate change and Africa will be his points of discussion. Added to that, he will be president of the EU for the second half of this year.... so yeah. I'm wondering how you guys would approach this problem as Europeans.

    Try not to mention the world "America" further on since I am not really interested in comparing or even talking about America, but rather how YOU would solve the problem at hand.
     
  20. mjn

    mjn
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    Stop confusing us with Europe you fool!
     
  21. Squiffy

    Squiffy
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    It is not being ignored.

    There is certainly the intent to comply, and I would say that reasonable endeavours are being made - for the most part anyway - across Europe.

    The question I would have to ask though is what the situation would be without Europe being signed up? I think it is fair to say that situation would be significantly worse, and Kyoto is a welcome step in the right direction.

    If is entirely valid to compare what is happening in the signatory countries with what is happening in the USA. It is still the case that the 5% of the world population that is the USA consumes about 25% of its energy. IMHO the countries that are signed up deserve the credit for at least attempting to go forward with Kyoto compared to the selfish attitude of the USA.
     
  22. eviljohn2

    eviljohn2
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    Nothing to do with me!

    Lalalalalalala. I can't hear you. :)
     
  23. Jenn

    Jenn
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    So... If the UK are meeting them, what more are britons expected to do ?

    Should they go an declare war on European countries because they don't like the way they don't meet their target and force them to do so ?
     
  24. Bristol Pete

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    Is he not one of them Jedi types found in that new film out, called Epsidode 3 or something????
     
  25. Miyazaki

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    the best thing to do would be to crash jumbo jets into major american power stations. Much better than kyoto!
     
  26. mrtbag

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    Ask the people in charge. Write to our environment minister. But don't come on here and ask us.

    American, American, American.
     
  27. alexs2

    alexs2
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    I'd have to agree with Squiffy and eviljohn2,and also add that if the US paid some notice to this,it may make the task easier all round,by getting the biggest energy user in the world behind some of the changes that need to be made.

    It is of course entirely relevant to include the contribution of other areas to the discussion,and to expect to exclude them simply on the grounds that "I am not really interested in comparing or even talking about America," is simply seeking to limit the scope of the discussion to exclude a large part of the problem.

    Surely this is a global problem,and one that won't be settled on an AV Forum,but requires a degree of political will not just here in Europe,but elsewhere also.
     
  28. Master Rahl

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    I know some people believe it is a global "problem" but I'm less interested in the global problem and more interested in what your suggestions would be to your Prime Minister as he assumes presidency of the European Union later this year (and acting Presidency of the G8 this year).

    Would you support higher taxes if it would guarantee making the European Union's commitments? What about stricter regulations and laws on pollution? Or would you leave it as it is miss Kyoto completely? Perhaps withdraw from the treaty some Europeans (Italy) did? Do you consider Italy's withdrawl as unacceptable as the United States' refusal to sign the treaty?

    You could up your goals to compensate for the increased output in other European countries. That would help the EU reach its goals.
     
  29. Master Rahl

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    You know, you're ignoring a LOT of stuff by making such a broad generalization. I'd like to see you consume your level of energy that you're consuming right now if you lived in a country where it can hit -30 for a few weeks with 10 feet of snow while living in a country that just moving food around costs more because of the sheer size and distances.
     
  30. Nobber22

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    No. What I would support is the UK Government focussing specifically on some of the major causes of CO2 emmisions - HGV's and other polluting industries, instead of bashing motorists in clean Euro4 compliant vehicles! :mad: Tax & fine specific polluters, not the whole country.

    Yes. Italy deserves plenty of stick for this. Then again I understand their politicians are expecting a major economy meltdown in the next few years & will do anything to stop one. Still no excuse tho'. :thumbsdow
     
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