Yamaha V6A/TSR-700, Apple TV, delay in recognizing ATMOS

tannebil

Novice Member
I upgraded to a TSR-700 in May and, while everything is working fine in my setup, it always takes the Yamaha at least 45 seconds and sometimes several minutes to recognize in is getting an ATMOS stream from my Apple TV4K (Gen 1). During that time, the Audio Input on the Yamaha shows "DD" in the Options OSD. Once it figures it out, everything works fine and the sound is great (5.1.2).

It happens with all the apps I use that are streaming ATMOS video (TV.app, Netflix, Disney+, HBO Max) or audio (Music.app) and only with ATMOS (regular DD 5.1 starts instantly). The delay seems shorter on Music.app but I won't swear to it. It happens on the first show after powering up as well as the 2nd and subsequent shows.

I checked the Yamaha settings and made sure the Program Setting is Straight. I replaced the HDMI cable with a 1.5' 2.1 rated cable.

Is this just the nature of ATMOS, something particular to the Yamaha, something particular to the ATV, or something wonky in my settings or equipment? I don't have any other ATMOS input devices to test. (In theory, my TiVo Bolt+ should support ATMOS but I've never seen it output by any of the apps we use on it)

Suggestions as to things to look at?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Atmos isn't output in conjunction with DD via an Apple TV and the Apple TV uses Dolby MAT to output the Atmos metadata in conjunction with multichannel PCM. THe multi channel PCM results from the ATV decoding the DD+ encoded element of the audio package that included the Atmos metadata itself and the ATV cannot bitstream Atmos without doing this.

You shouldn't be getting Atmos in conjunction with either DD or DD+ via an Apple TV.

The ATV should be configured for Atmos as indicated here:


I've not got a TiVo Bolt and I've no idea as to what Atmos content you'd actually have access to if using one/ THe correct settings for it to be able to output Atmos are given here:


Unlike the ATV, the Bolt should bitstream DD+ while conveyinying the Atmos metadata to your AV receiver. THe metadata is packaged with the DD+ encoded audio. I'd not expect your Bolt to have access to or be able to output Atmos that is packaged with TrueHD. Streaming services and broadcasters do not use HD audio so not being able to access or handle TRueHD isn't an issue. Note that neither can the ATV handle HD quality TrueHD.
 
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S3rv3d

Well-known Member
I upgraded to a TSR-700 in May and, while everything is working fine in my setup, it always takes the Yamaha at least 45 seconds and sometimes several minutes to recognize in is getting an ATMOS stream from my Apple TV4K (Gen 1). During that time, the Audio Input on the Yamaha shows "DD" in the Options OSD. Once it figures it out, everything works fine and the sound is great (5.1.2).

It happens with all the apps I use that are streaming ATMOS video (TV.app, Netflix, Disney+, HBO Max) or audio (Music.app) and only with ATMOS (regular DD 5.1 starts instantly). The delay seems shorter on Music.app but I won't swear to it. It happens on the first show after powering up as well as the 2nd and subsequent shows.

I checked the Yamaha settings and made sure the Program Setting is Straight. I replaced the HDMI cable with a 1.5' 2.1 rated cable.

Is this just the nature of ATMOS, something particular to the Yamaha, something particular to the ATV, or something wonky in my settings or equipment? I don't have any other ATMOS input devices to test. (In theory, my TiVo Bolt+ should support ATMOS but I've never seen it output by any of the apps we use on it)

Suggestions as to things to look at?

Have you updated to the recent v1.34 firmware? I had this issue prior to this update so I left Atmos turned off on the ATV. 1.34 seems to have fixed it though
 

tannebil

Novice Member
Sorry, I misspoke. The Audio Signal Information Format shows a mark of two half-circles (ears?) followed by DTHD with the other fields blank. Eventually it changes to Atmos/PCM.

Does DTHD actually refer to DTS-HD? Is that the codec/format it’s expecting and it takes some random amount of time to figure out it’s actually getting Dolby MAT instead? Does the Surround Decoder setting have something to do with it? Mine says Neo:6 Cinema but there are Auto and Dsur options. I tried them but it didn’t seem to matter.

Is there a setting on the Yamaha to tell it to expect this format instead of starting with DTHD and the switching after it detects? Am I at least starting to show a glimmer of understanding?
 

tannebil

Novice Member
I updated to 1.34 earlier today. It didn’t change anything. Are you not seeing this delay? That would be reassuring as it most likely means I just screwed up a setting somewhere
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
DTHD indicates Dolby TrueHD. As said though, the ATV has no ability to handle TrueHD and neither will any streaming service use it.
 

tannebil

Novice Member
I updated to 1.34 earlier today. It didn’t change anything. Are you not seeing this delay? That would be reassuring as it most likely means I screwed up a setting somewhere
DTHD indicates Dolby TrueHD. As said though, the ATV has no ability to handle TrueHD and neither will any streaming service use it.
The AVR tries to use DTHD and then tries Atmos/PCM when DTHD fails. What I’d like to do is have the AVR skip trying to use DTHD since I don’t have any device that uses it.

It may be impossible to configure on the AVR but my Internet searches have not found anybody complaining about this delay and the people on the Internet are very good about complaining 😂 so I’m hoping that it’s a Yamaha setting rather than limitation.

I’d try using eARC but my 2017 LG only supports HDMI-ARC and optical so my understanding is that it won’t pass Atmos. Seems like a great upgrade opportunity from 65” to a 77” or 83”’ OLED but my wife is skeptical about that idea.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The DTHD is a false reading. The ATV cannot handle TrueHD and none of the streaming services use it. The signal coming from the ATV will be multichannel PCM includive of the Atmos metadata. THe ATV is decoding the DD+ audio element of the audio package prior to output and this is what gives you the PCM part of the signal.

All you need do is set the receiver to its STRAIGHT mode or leave it set to its DOLBY SURROUND upmixing mode. You'd get Atmos in either instance if and when the incoming signal includes Atmos metadata.

You can convey Atmos via ARC, but only if conveyed in association with DD+. As said, the ATV uses Dolby MAT to enable it to output Atmos in association with multichannel PCM. You cannot convey multichannel PCM via ARC and you'd need eARC to convey more than just 2 channels of PCM data. eARC is only needed if wanting to convey HD audio formats or multichannel PCM.
 
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tannebil

Novice Member
The DTHD is a false reading. The ATV cannot handle TrueHD and none of the streaming services use it. The signal coming from the ATV will be multichannel PCM includive of the Atmos metadata. THe ATV is decoding the DD+ audio element of the audio package prior to output and this is what gives you the PCM part of the signal.

All you need do is set the receiver to its STRAIGHT mode or leave it set to its DOLBY SURROUND upmixing mode. You'd get Atmos in either instance if and when the incoming signal includes Atmos metadata.

You can convey Atmos via ARC, but only if conveyed in association with DD+. As said, the ATV uses Dolby MAT to enable it to output Atmos in association with multichannel PCM. You cannot convey multichannel PCM via ARC and you'd need eARC to convey more than just 2 channels of PCM data. eARC is only needed if wanting to convey HD audio formats or multichannel PCM.
 

tannebil

Novice Member
Think I'm all sorted out. It appears that when an audio signal starts, the AVR goes through a recognition process that can be watched on the front panel. The messages it would show when I started an ATV Amos show were "Decoder Off","PCM/Neo 6 Music", Decoder Off, DTHD, PCM/Atmos with a long delay on DTHD. Armed with a better understanding of surround sound thanks to dante01's responses, I went through my configuration looking for issues.

I fixed a few unrelated configuration errors I'd made in "Speakers" and "Virtual Speaker" but the winner was "Surround Decoder". For some inexplicable reason that I'm sure made sense to me at time, I'd set it to "Neo:6 Music" when I initially did the setup. I changed it to "Auto" and the sequence of messages became "Decoder Off", PCM/Dsur, Decoder Off, "DTHD/DSur", Atmos/PCM, with the delay on DTHD gone. Changing it to Dsur changed the messages slightly but took a similar amount of time.

Apparently checking an ATV PCM/Atmos stream for "PCM/Neo 6 Music" leaves the receiver in a state where it takes an extended amount of time to recognize that a PCM/Atmos stream is not DTHD. Since it quickly discards DTHD when the default is Auto or Dsur, I'd guess a bug but it might just be an unavoidable technical limitation. I'm not sure about the significance, if any, in seeing "DTHD" in the first paragraph vs "DTHD/Dsur" in the second.

In retrospect, "PCM/Neo 6 Music" was a giant overlooked clue but my receiver is behind a grill so I never really noticed the messages until I got off my butt and switched from watching the OSD to watching the front panel. Also, why should that choice cause the decoder recognition process to encounter an extended delay? Maybe it's just an unanticipated path that just didn't get tested heavily.

Thanks again to dante01 for his patient explanation.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
If surround decoder is set to any mode apart from Dolby Surround or if the AVR is set to its STRAIGHT mode then the receiver doesn't even both looking for the presence of Atmos metadata. THe AVR has to therefore reappraise the audio if you disenggage a mode such as Neo:6. THe delay shouldn't be as long as you are experiencing though and should be almost instantaneous.
 

Dante999

Novice Member
Hi, I have a TSR700 with 5.1.2 configuration (2 front presence speakers) and LG CX television, connected with eARC.



When trying to play Atmos content (from Netflix or Xbox connected to the TV), everything is fine if the Yamaha is set to STRAIGHT or Surround decode à the Yamaha says it is decoding Dolby Atmos



Problem n°1:

as soon as I try to enable a DSP program (Standard/Spectacle/Adventure/etc…) the Yamaha says it is not decoding Atmos anymore, it switches to DD+, even though all the speakers are still emitting sound.



Is this normal? Can anyone explain why?



Problem n°2:

The same does NOT happen with DTS:X. In this case I can apply DSP programs with no difference. Is this normal?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
DSP Programs are not applicable to Atmos soundtracks. The soundtrack would revert to the DD_ or TRueHD audio with which the Atmos metadata was packaged with if you apply DSP Program processing to the signal.

The DSP Programs still use all the speakers, including presence speakers in order to create their intended effects. The fact that the presence speakers are engaged is not always a sign that you are portraying Atmos. Yamaha AV receivers have had the ability to use presence speakers well in advance of Atmos ever being developed.

It happens because Dolby don't allow the kind of processing associated with the DSP programs to be applied to Atmos. Also note that other features such as the YPAO Volume, Adaptive DRC and the Dialogue Lift cannot be engaged and used wuile portraying Atmos either.

You'd have similar issues if attempting to apply Neural:X to the Atmos soundtrack. You'd again only get the Neural:X processing applied to the Dchannel based DD+ or the TRueHD audio with which the Atmos metadata was packaged.


What you are experiencing is normal and not a fault.
 

Dante999

Novice Member
DSP Programs are not applicable to Atmos soundtracks. The soundtrack would revert to the DD_ or TRueHD audio with which the Atmos metadata was packaged with if you apply DSP Program processing to the signal.

The DSP Programs still use all the speakers, including presence speakers in order to create their intended effects. The fact that the presence speakers are engaged is not always a sign that you are portraying Atmos. Yamaha AV receivers have had the ability to use presence speakers well in advance of Atmos ever being developed.

It happens because Dolby don't allow the kind of processing associated with the DSP programs to be applied to Atmos. Also note that other features such as the YPAO Volume, Adaptive DRC and the Dialogue Lift cannot be engaged and used wuile portraying Atmos either.

You'd have similar issues if attempting to apply Neural:X to the Atmos soundtrack. You'd again only get the Neural:X processing applied to the Dchannel based DD+ or the TRueHD audio with which the Atmos metadata was packaged.


What you are experiencing is normal and not a fault.
Thank you very much for the explanation!

Another question, maybe a bit off topic: on my setup I use musiccast20 as surround speakers, they are wireless speakers from Yamaha. In this configuration, the AV receiver does not allow me to run multi point YPAO calibration but single point only. I do not know why this limitation is present but I was wondering if I am missing something and it would be better to use regular wired speakers for surround in order to obtain multi point calibration. Does it worth the difference?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Don't be so dejected by not being able to run a multipoint calibration. Contrary to popular belief, the Yamaha multipoint calibration doesn;t result in more accurate measurements and simply allows an owner to try average out the configurations to try accomodate more than one person listening in different locations around the room.

The most accurate method idf using a Yamaha AVR is a single point calibration relative to just one listening location.
 

stesha83

Novice Member
My RXV583 has done this for some time and it drives me nuts.

When it tried to play an Atmos signal from the ATV 4K, whether via eARC or directly connected, it first says “Decoder off” then “DTHD” for a few seconds before switching to Atmos/PCM. It means that, for example, if I switch from a stereo to Atmos track in Apple Music, I miss the first few seconds of the song. It does this whether it’s set to STRAIGHT or DSP Auto (there is no DSP Dolby Surround, but Auto seems to always default to “DSUR” when not playing Atmos). DSP Auto seems a little quicker, but then it upmixes all stereo tracks into 5.1 which I don’t really want. It also did this with Atmos content from my Nvidia Shield 4K. I figured it was to do with the bandwidth required, but why it ALWAYS defaults to DTHD for 5-15 seconds I have no idea. A thousand thanks await the person who can explain or resolve.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
It is the time it is taking for the AV receiver to establish a new HDMI handshake and then appraise what it is receiving. This will occur whenever the signal eminating from a source changes.

There's no treason as to why it would default to Dolby TrueHD, especially if not actually receiver this. That behaviour is simply a dlitch or foible.
 

stesha83

Novice Member
That makes sense, as it doesn’t happen when I change songs, but it happens if I pause and then unpause a song. I’m guessing it says DTHD as the Atmos metadata is packaged on top of DTHD?

Is there any way to speed up this handshake? It seems equally slow though eARC with the LG CX or directly connected.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The Apple TV has no ability to handle Dolby TrueHD and any Atmos audio you get via it will originate from Atmos metadata packaged with Dolby Digital Plus (DD+). The ATV is also unable to actually bitstream Atmos and relies upon Dolby MAT to enable it to convey Atmos to an AV receiver. The Apple TV is basically decoding the DD+ package and then outputting it as multichannel PCM in conjuncrion with the associated Atmos metadata. The Apple TV has no ability to handle HD lossless audio such as Dolby TrueHD and the streaming services that include Atmos soundtracks do so by delivering it packaged with DD+. No streaming service uses TrueHD.
 

stesha83

Novice Member
That’ll be why it (eventually) says ATMOS/PCM, then. If I switch from Atmos to Atmos it says (ad you’d expect) Atmos/pcm, decoder off, Atmos/pcm. With no missing audio. Maybe a few milliseconds. If I switch from stereo to Atmos or the reverse, it says STRAIGHT (or DSUR), Decoder off, DTHD, Atmos/PCM. Similar to the original poster. It would be great if it dropped the DTHD part of the equation as it adds several seconds to the handshake meaning I lose audio every time I switch. I’ve systematically changed every setting I can think of one by one and nothing helps.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I don't experience this with my RX-A1080 and disn't with my older RX-A1050 either, but neither do I own or use an Apple TV so it may be a handshake issue between the ATV and your receiver?
 

stesha83

Novice Member
Possibly, but my Shield did it too. It could be that the 583 is an older model too. I should probably just buy an HDMI 2.1 receiver which has the bugfix, but I have a baby on the way and my first house about to complete so it’s a tall order at the moment!
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I'd not suggest any need for an HDMI version 2.1 receiver. You don't appear to have anything that would require this? I'd also suggest that the implementation of HDMI onboard such receivers is probably less stable that that associated with the modeld preceeding them and their implementations of HDMI.

Don't be in a rush to buy an HDMI 2.1 equipped AVR, especially if you don't need it.
 
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stesha83

Novice Member
I have an Xbox Series X, a PS5 and a PC with an RTX3070 connected to my CX passing audio back to the RXV583 via eARC. I would prefer to connect these directly to the receiver (along with the ATV) but then I’m limited to 60hz. I originally hoped that removing the TV and eARC from the equation might speed things up a bit, but handshake speed seems about the same when directly connected and it still throws up the DTHD step of the process. I don’t fully trust the eARC implementation of the 583 as it was patched in years after release with a FW update.

Thanks for your replies by the way, I massively appreciate it.
 

adezeAUS

Novice Member
I have an Xbox Series X, a PS5 and a PC with an RTX3070 connected to my CX passing audio back to the RXV583 via eARC. I would prefer to connect these directly to the receiver (along with the ATV) but then I’m limited to 60hz. I originally hoped that removing the TV and eARC from the equation might speed things up a bit, but handshake speed seems about the same when directly connected and it still throws up the DTHD step of the process. I don’t fully trust the eARC implementation of the 583 as it was patched in years after release with a FW update.

Thanks for your replies by the way, I massively appreciate it.
I have noticed this switching between audio formats too.. I'm running xbox and Apple TV through an lg c1 via earc to the rx-v6a.

so I have gone through the combinations of audio input/output on the LG, and whilst there was an firmware update last week, I have been wondering if its a problem with the LG arc/earc or the Yamaha.


I have also tried the LG "digital sound output" settings PCM, Auto, Pass through and it doesn't really make a difference.

Despite the "PCM/Dsur" display, I would be able to get Atmos out of my Apple TV in Apple Music when required. I also use infuse7 and with downloaded dolby trailers and Dolby Atmos/vision assets to test with, and the results are always mixed.

on xbox, I do get Atmos on video apps, since I set it to "bitstream out", as well as the dolby app works as expected. Games that actually support Atmos, such as COD Warzone, always did switch to Atmos. It was all other games that had me wondering (eg Destiny 2)-- is it 5.1, is it LPCM, etc?

On Apple TV with infuse 7:
  • TrueHD 7. 1 files are still interpreted as "PCM", but sound like they're multi-channel atmos
  • Even DTS-X samples sound pretty good, and are "PCM" (infuse/Apple TV must be converting this to LPCM)
  • Apple TV+ does display as Atmos/PCM which is as expected because the Apple TV settings actually states the best output would be "multi-channel LPCM".

When I switch the LG to ARC, it forces a lossy bitstream, with both Apple TV and xbox showing "Atmos/DD+" or "DD/DD+" (or whatever)-- but I'm not sure if the TV then is signalling the xbox/Apple TV to output the lossy signal, or if its its remuxing(?)/ down-mixing the output to the receiver.

However, after some trial and error, I think by switching the LG from arc to EARC and "rebooting" the receiver (I do it from the web setup screen), I HAVE been able to:

  • get the xbox to display Atmos/DD+ in games with EARC. such as Destiny 2.
  • have my Apple TV (eg Apple TV+ shows in Atmos /Vision) output recognised as "Atmos/DD+" instead of "Atmos/PCM"
  • Get the tv apps such as YouTube to output "Dolby/DD+" (as opposed to stereo PCM), which is quite a surprise

also, sometimes a full reboot of the TV seems to work (I haven't figured out exactly what fixes/causes the problem)

According to LG settings help, the DTV output being set to "Auto" means that it will try different formats for the one that works-- I note this because, although I've also tried forcing a particular type, it makes no difference-but may be why the Yamaha cycles through different sound formats on the display

I have tried the various Dolby Vision/Atmos media files which sometimes show Atmos, sometimes not, through infuse 7, but its hard to determine if its the software player that causes these problems.

So I think there's definitely an issue with LG EARC (the CX and C1 firmwares are quite similar-- at least their issues are), which can send the wrong handshake to the attached devices, resulting in a different audio signal format (bitstream or LPCM, or at worst possibly just stereo PCM)
but the Yamaha ALSO may also not be able to handshake correctly, and gets stuck, until its reset via a reboot.

Its confusing because there are two potentially buggy pieces of hardware here, and very little in the way of diagnostic information.


EDIT: I went to check all this after writing this post, but a reboot of the receiver isn't needed. Switching the HDMI input format from bitstream to PCM back to bitstream again (and set for EARC), now seems to output a signal that the receiver correctly displays (DD/DSur, DD/DD+, Atmos/DD+ , etc. worked for me (again)

HDMI Input: bitstream (and switching to PCM and back when needed)
EARC : on
DTV audio: auto
HDMI output: Passthrough
 
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