Yamaha TSR 7850 Dolby ATMOS setup

[wasjrx51]

I just added Sonance MAG6R speakers (mounted in the ceiling about 2' in front of listening area) to use as ATMOS speakers. The rest of the speakers are Speakercraft AIM, main L &R speakers in the wall, center and surrounds (which are ceiling mounted with surrounds about 2' behind listening area and center directly above the TV and are about 8 years old and still sound good (to me). This is in a family room with a lot of windows and doors, hence using walls for mounting. The terminals I used for the ATMOS speakers are called front presence. The surround terminals used are called surrounds (the rear surrounds terminals are not connected). From consulting the manual, this seems to me what is called for. The TV and receiver are connected by a new high speed HDMI cable and the TV is used to go online (Netflix, Apple, internet, and cable). The YMAO was used to set up the speakers and the measurements did come out correct, and the adjustments automatically made are from 0 to -1db. Listening to the test sounds, they all sound like they did before adding the ATMOS speakers,

I do not have a ATMOS BD player and can't seem to find a way to play any test ATMOS files (assuming You Tube plays stereo only and any other on line files I found induce a message "action not supported"), so my only chance to play any ATMOS media is by buying a movie online - so I bought Star Wars Last Jedi. The movie says it is in DOLBY ATMOS and HDR, and playing it seems to be in HDR but does not indicate it is ATMOS although I do see 7 speaker boxes lit up on the Yamaha panel. I have tried going through the menus on the Yamaha and have not made any difference except that straight will put it in stereo mode. I see from other posts that Yamaha does indicate Dolby ATMOS when that is what is playing.

To be honest, I think I liked the 5.1 sound better than what I am getting now - everything seems kind of non directional where before I did hear left to right sound and to a small extent front to back as well, and definietely rear background sound. Now everything seems to be coming from in front and above all at once if that makes any sense. Any ideas what I have done incorrectly? Or maybe I messed up because the speakers are not specifically ATMOS? The proverbial guy at Best Buy recommended these speakers as good ones to use for adding ATMOS - but I bought them ;-(

 

[dante01]

I'd not suggest you bother with Atmos if mounting all the speakers on your ceiling. Atmos requires that the speakers be at 2 levels. THe 5.1 element of a setup would or should be at your seated head heaight while only the Atmos effects speakers would be located on the ceiling or high up on the walls. AS it stands, you'd not be able to differentiate between these 2 levels because they are both being portrayed from the same plain.

YouTube doesn't even carry multichannel syrround, let alone Atmos. All content on YouTube in 2 channel stereo regardless of how those uploading content there have labelled it. Do not use YouTube to test sirround setups or Atmos because nothing abailable via YouTube will include such audio.

The AV receiver's own integral media player is limited to 2 channel audio files and has no ability to play multichannel formatted files or audio included with video content. You'd need to use an external player if wanting to play such content.

You fail to say how you are playing the movie you bought? If via an app on your TV then you'd need to configigure both the TV and your AV receiver to utilise HDMI ARC. THis will require that you connect the AV receiver's ARC enabled HDMI output to the one ARC enabled HDMI ARC enabled input on your TV. You'd also need to turn HDMI Control and ARC on onboard the AV receiver via its HDMI configurations. THe TV's own implimentation of HDMI CEC (Control) may be termed differently depending upon the make of TV you have? Whatever it is called, it should be turned on. You'd also need to select ARC as the method of digital aufio output you wish to use from within the TV's audio options. THere should also be another setting with options such as OCM, PASS THROUGH or BITSTREAM etc? SEt this to BOTSTREAM or PASS THROUGH and not PCM.

THe above should allow you to convey the DD+ encoded audio inclusive of the Atmos metadata from your TV to the AV receiver using ARC?

As saidm Atmos needs the 2 tiers I mentioned and you cannot really have an Atmos setup with all your speakers on the ceiling. I'd not even suggest portrayong conventional channel based formats viasuch an arrangement. The effects are too difuse and lose the directionality to were inyended to have.



Here's basically jow you setup should look with correctly placed speakers that would be conducive with the portrayal of Atmos:

 

[wasjrx51]

Thanks for the reply ... I actually do have 2 planes because the main L and R are on the wall about ear level. The front "presence" and surrounds are in the ceiling (9' above, and the surrounds are roughly 15 degrees behind, withthe ATMOS speakers 15 degrees in front of the seating) as is the center channel (directly above the TV). I should note that the Speakercraft speakers all have pointable tweeters and the Soncances can aim both the woofers and tweeters - and I have them all pointed towards the center of the seating. The YMAO measurements confirm the center and concurs with actual measurements, and all speakers were automatically set to between 0 db and -1db.

I am using Arc and it works because I have only a single HDMI cable between the 7850 and TV (2018 Samsung Q6FN). HDMI CEC is turned on as well. I'll have to check whether I have Bitstream or PCM chosen - I believe I tried both, but it is something to check.

After I wrote my original question, I watched Jurassic Park specifically to hear the scene where a herd of dinosaurs are running through a field. Even though it is 5.1, it did sound good and you can tell the herd is running around and past. So as you say, I may never be able to hear the ATMOS effect the way I have the speakers in the ceiling.

 

[dante01]

The surround speakers and the centre speaker also all need to be at your seated head height.

The human auditory system loses its ability to localise audio if being eminated above 30 degrees from the listener's horizontal plain ahead of them. The surrounds and the center channel are supposed be localised relative to where they are depicted in the image I posted.

Your current setup will not portray the Atmos effects in a manner that you'd be able to differentiate that audio from the audio associated with the surround channels. Neither will the surrounds be able to interact with the Atmos audio to correctly locate Atmos objects in a 3D space if nor located where Dolby have suggested the speakers be placed.

 

[wasjrx51]

So went back at it today with fresh eyes and in my haste I was trying to cast the ATMOS files to the TV rather than to the receiver. When casting the files to the receiver, it plays - but indicates 7.1 and not ATMOS. It actually sounds pretty good; slightly better than what I had before (5.1). I read somewhere that "direct" should be used (selected from the receiver) and when I do, it goes to 2 speaker stereo. There is another button called "Pure Direct" which blanks out all indications of what is playing, and it noticeably cut off the sub, but otherwise sounded pretty good. I was also able to select HDR+ on the TV menu where I was only able to select HDR before, so out of all this consternation, maybe I will get a better picture - albeit with 7.1 sound that's is "pretty good".

I think there should be some way of manufacturers to have manual settings available instead of all these "automatic" discoveries - I don't have a complicated system (cable box and Blu-ray as inputs along with Bluetooth) yet I have spent hours trying all these "discoveries" trying to get a desired known result without much success - and now to add insult to injury, every time I want to watch TV, the Blu-ray player insists on turning on HAHA Now I have to get that remedied or the wife will ... well you know wives ;-(

 

[wasjrx51]

The latest ... I went through every thing once again to try to figure out what was going on with the Blu-ray player when I just unplugged it. The inputs reverted back to how they should be and in checking noticed that Netflix was indeed displaying Atmos/DD+! Apparently, the only thing being decoded/displayed as Atmos was Netflix; even casting the Atmos files from my PC only played/decoded/displayed PCM or 7ch Stereo. As I've said, I have a pretty simple setup; a HDMI ARC high speed cable between the TV and receiver, and the receiver outputing the cable and network through one output. When casting from the PC, the receiver switches automatically to play that and I have to change the input back to HDMI to play TV etc. Again, not sure why it can switch one way and not back automatically, but so be it. It looks great, sounds pretty good - I was expecting more, but after the explanation of everything needing to be on the same plane, I understand. If I ever build a real home theater, I will do much better. Thanks for the help.

 

[dante01]

PURE DIRECT bypasses aal Parametrioc room EQ correction, the receiver's bass management and all video processing. THe mode basically turns off anything that is strictly need in order for the AV receiver to be able to portray what it is receiving.

You'd probably be better catered for by the STRAIGHT mode. This mode will bypass any DSP Programs or SURRROUND DECODER moder, but still employs the PEQ room correction and bass management.

If wanting Atmosfrom a Windows PC then you'd have to utilise something ytermed Dolby MAT. That allows a PC to output the channel based element of the audio as multichannel PCM along with the Atmos metadata.

How to Use Dolby Atmos Surround Sound on Windows 10

Windows 10's Creators Update added support for Dolby Atmos positional sound.

www.howtogeek.com

I'd also suggest you run the YPAO calibration using the supplied mic if you've not already done so.

 

[wasjrx51]

I tried Pure Direct several times and it put it in plain old 2 speaker stereo mode. There's not much to do except push the button, so that's how it functioned for me. Straight mode dropped me into 5.1 mode - same deal push the button with no setup that I saw. I don't understand what unit is actually decoding the files when casting to the receiver - are you saying the PC is decoding? It seems odd that it would decode to 7.1 - but that's what it displayed. It did sound amazing, but I suppose that was what it was made for, and I did notice the Atmos files were louder and seemed fuller that the 7.1 files, but maybe that was intentional too? But the Atmos displayed PCM encoding and the 7.1 displayed "7.1 Stereo".

At any rate, I watched Netflix all evening - several movies with HDR and Atmos and I have to say it went very well. I can access different sites, TV (from both the TV and cable box) without doing anything but selecting the icon. If I cast from the PC, the receiver will automatically switch to that (and play only showing PCM), but afterwards, I have to manually select the receiver to access everything else again. I can live with that because I really don't stream all that much anyway, and then only for FLAC files.

I'll try setting up the WIN10 link tomorrow and see what happens. Thanks again for your help and patience.

 

[dante01]

There's no 5.! mode. If the AV receiver gave you 5.1 while in STRAIGHT mode then that was what the source audio was encoded with. It would be the modes within the SUR. DECODER options that would upmix non multichannel sources resulting in you getting pseudo surround from sources that were not originally encoded with multichannel soundtracks.

The manual will list all these modes and describe what they'd do.

STAIGHT results in no upmixing or DSP Programs being applied. PURE DIRECT does likewise, but also results in other processing such as the room EQ filtering, bass management and the video processing all being bypassed and negated. You'd more than likely still want the bass management and room EQ filtering most of the time so STRAIGHT may be a better option to use if not wanting the AV receiver to upmixing the incoming audio?

 

[wasjrx51]

Most of the stuff I watch is not Atmos encoded and is not labeled as such. So tonight, I was going to watch the Godzilla/King Kong movie which is supposed to be encoded for Atmos (and incidentally Dolby Vision - which my equipment cannot handle). So I sit down with the grandkids, and low and behold, the receiver presents the encoding as DD+ and no Atmos. It sounded great, much like all the other stuff I watch, but am perplexed as to why I can't get Atmos again.

I wish I knew what the heck I was trying when the receiver did decode Atmos so I could go back and test. Once I saw it, I just figured it finally started working and I was home free - well not so much HAHA I did buy a high speed HDMI cable to run between the receiver and TV arc ports, so that's not it. From what I understand, Atmos is metadata sent on top of DD+ (or Dolby Vision), and I get DD+ all day every day, so that's not it. I feed the set top box and streaming into the receiver, so it shouldn't be the TV causing the problem (my TV is a 2018 model and is not Atmos capable). I get fantastic HDR and HDR+, so I presume there are no signal issues. So my question is ... is it possible that the Atmos is only piggybacked on the Dolby Vision? It'll PO me, but I would keep hold of my sanity if it is ... there's not much, if anything, that is Atmos and not Dolby Vision. But then the question is how does the receiver decode as DD+ and not the Atmos?

By the way, I have never been able to get Atmos when casting the demo files from the computer - even when I did get the Atmos to decode whatever I was trying. I also never see 7.1 stereo anymore either, although I didn't see that often. It is 100% DD+ or PCM - even regular old NBC and ABC news, HGTV, whatever TV comes in PCM.

 

[dante01]

From what I understand, Atmos is metadata sent on top of DD+ (or Dolby Vision), and I get DD+ all day every day, so that's not it. I feed the set top box and streaming into the receiver, so it shouldn't be the TV causing the problem (my TV is a 2018 model and is not Atmos capable). I get fantastic HDR and HDR+, so I presume there are no signal issues. So my question is ... is it possible that the Atmos is only piggybacked on the Dolby Vision? It'll PO me, but I would keep hold of my sanity if it is ... there's not much, if anything, that is Atmos and not Dolby Vision. But then the question is how does the receiver decode as DD+ and not the Atmos?

By the way, I have never been able to get Atmos when casting the demo files from the computer - even when I did get the Atmos to decode whatever I was trying. I also never see 7.1 stereo anymore either, although I didn't see that often. It is 100% DD+ or PCM - even regular old NBC and ABC news, HGTV, whatever TV comes in PCM.

Atmos is indeed metadata, but packaged with either SD Lossy Dolby Digital Plus (DD+) or HD lossless Dolby TrueHD channel based audio. It can also be conveyed with multichannel PCM if the source utises something called Dolby MAT (
Dolby Metadata-enhanced Audio Transmission), but Dolby MAT will currently only be used with some ga,es consoles, in conjunction with PCs and if using an Apple TV 4K.

Dolby Vision has nothing at all to do with the audio or Atmos. Dolby Vision is a dynamic form of HDR developed by Dolby labs. It's inclusion would have no influence upon when a film or other video can include Atmos.

The audio inclusive of Atmos that you get via streaming services will be DD+ in nature. Services such as Netflix, Disney+ and Apple do include Atmos with many of their shows or the content they host, this is especially the case with the UHD 4K encoded content.Amazon Prime also host content inclusive of Atmos, but do not indicate if it is included or not and do not host as much content inclusive of it as the other services I've mentioned. The other services actually indicate if the content is inclusive of an Atmos soundtrack.

Even if a streaming service ordinarilly includes content that would be encoded with Atmos, not all sources rtn a version of the app that would fascilitate access to that Atmos soundtrack. Some devices simply don't facilitate access to Atmos in association with particular apps and or streaming services.

As mentioned, Widows PCs require yiou use Dolby MAT to output Atmos. You'd need to ensure that you've installed the associated Dolby software onto your PC to do this.

 

[wasjrx51]

I installed Dolby Access on my PC, but I am not sure it is correctly setup. My PC is 55' away from the TV and receiver, and in the Dolby Access setup, setup asks for an HDMI connection - which I can't do, or setup using headphones, which I do not have. The funny thing is that the test files do sound good, even when the one that starts out saying "this is how we have listened" ...

I didn't think Dolby Vision had anything to do with it. I guess it is just circumstantial that Atmos and DV are nearly always available together on the media.

As I mentioned in the last post, Godzilla vs King Kong (HBO Max) was indicated to be Atmos (and Dolby Vision) yet I did not get the indication that it was decoded as Atmos. It decoded as everything else normally does ... as DD+.

To exacerbate things, with my surrounds in the ceiling, I already had a pseudo "overhead" sound stage HAHA which complicates what is heard vs what was decoded as determined by the metadata. After I watched Jurassic Park here, I watched it at my son's house on his Meridian Digital system (which incidently has the dipolar speakers mounted high up on the side walls as prescribed by Meridian) and there's a part where you hear animal noises, and on his system you hear something very similar to my system - my son even comments that I have for about $5000 what cost him over $100k HAHA.

At any rate, maybe a call to Yamaha can determine if I have a problem receiver or if I missed something in the numerous attempts at setup. It is updated to the latest firmware that I could find, so I am simply at a loss. I am going to check the firmware on the Samsung TV (Q6FN). Since I am kind of at square 1, I'm wondering if the TV might be the problem ... not passing the metadata over (via Arc)? I understand that the TV cannot decode Atmos, but maybe it also cannot pass?

 

[dante01]

You'd not be able to convey Atmos from your PC to an AV receiver via anything but HDMI. THe multichannel PCM audio the metadata would be output with if using Dolby MAT cannot be conveyed over optical and has to be conveyed using HDMI or using HDBseT or hybrod JDMI cabling. The latter 2 are options you'd need to consider given the distance involved.

 

[wasjrx51]

Yup, that's what the Dolby MAT says in the setup, which is why I didn't think I had it setup correctly.

I did make sure the TV was at the latest firmware (as is the receiver), so all that is taken care of. Neither Yamaha or Samsung have easily accessible support. Just automated chat that can't even understand my question HAHA So I'm throwing in the towel ... I spent 2 weekends to get another 2 holes in my ceiling HAHA At this point, going through things one last time, I highly suspect the TV is not passing the metadata to the receiver. Neither the receiver nor U-Verse apps like Netflix etc., so I either buy some box or TV that can and I am not of the mindset to do either.

 

[wasjrx51]

So I did what I said I wouldn't do, and bought a Roku Ultra HAHA It was driving me crazy that I could not decode the Atmos ... After an afternoon setting up the Roku, now it seems EVERYTHING is displaying Atmos! I do see some slight lowering of picture quality, but there is no "automatic" setting to pass through - you would have to manually set and reset pass through - so since the difference is slight and not often used, I will leave the Roku to upscale when needed for now. The sound seems "fuller" at first impression; I'll have to experience watching different shows that I am familiar with to see if I can perceive a difference.

So, my questions now are - is it correct that just about everything (at least on Apple, Prime, Netflix, and HBO Max) streams in Atmos? I am getting Atmos even when info says that it is in 5.1 (Jurassic Park on HBO Max for example). Second, many programs are advertised as 5.1 on Netflix as streamed from the TV are now advertised as Atmos streamed on the Roku. I switched all the existing accounts from what I had previously, so presumably nothing was changed - yet programs like The Witcher, for example, say Atmos in the info and decodes and displays as Atmos. I can't see a way that sound could be "upscaled" to Atmos since it is metadata ...

Anyways, maybe a well spent $70 - at least I won't have as big a headache today HAHA

 

[dante01]

No. not everything you can access by the streaming services you list is inclusive of Atmos, especially not via Amazion Prime. Amazon have very little content inclusive of Atmos and cannot even bother labelling it as such when it is available. THe other services host a lot more, but not everythiung will include Atmos. You are more likely to encounter it in relation to new UHD video content and it will be labelled as inclusing Atmos on services other than Amazon.

 

[wasjrx51]

Well, to illustrate, the first two pictures show an older movie from 2008 (Fool's Gold) on Prime with the first picture as played from the TV as I have been, decoding DD+ (it was shown as 5.1 in the info) and then the second picture shows it on Roku playing in Atmos (it was also shown as 5.1 in the info). The next three pictures show Jack Ryan, the first is the bio which are the same on both services, the second shows the service from the TV with audio DD+, and the third shows as served from the Roku with Atmos. Of course it is an exaggeration that every single program is in Atmos, but many, many are!

I was up until about 4AM watching programs and movies, and I can say that it is not only showing Atmos as decoding, the audio is definitely different - and better. Probably because of the placement of surround speakers also in the ceiling, the height seems just slightly more pinpointed and most likely not as good as it could be. One of my favorite audio tests I use is Jurassic Park, especially where that herd comes running around, up and down hills, and finally coming over the log where the people are sheltering - and you can definitely hear the sound in corresponding directions much better - with the side to side much better.

As I said before, this is a better headache HAHA And it even tips the scale to make it worth putting the speakers in. As you have said before, the effect is probably not the best it could be because of placement, but now that it seems to be operational, I can say it is better audio than what I had previously. I can't wait to hear what my son who has the Meridian system says HAHA Actually, the first thing he will ask is if I changed the speaker wire from my pedestrian Monster cable HAHA

 

[dante01]

Fool's Gold as hosted by Amazon isn't encoded with Atmos. I've no idea why anyone would even espect it to include Atmos?


Most titles accessed via Amazon are not inclusive of Atmos and neither do Amazon label those titles inclusive of it as including it.


Disney+, Netflix and Apple TV have far more content including Atmos than Amazon and actually label their content accordingly without you having to play it in order to ascertain whether or not it includes Atmos.

 

[wasjrx51]

I just picked Fool's Gold at random and I am not even familiar with the movie and because of the age (2008), I certainly did not expect it to be encoded with Atmos either, but as shown in the pictures, it is somehow being decoded as Atmos ... and more, the audio does sound different! Same with Jack Ryan, it does not say in the info that it is in Atmos, but it displays Atmos when played from Roku, and also sounds different.

When I say it sounds different, that is to say you hear a much fuller and wider sound; not necessarily sound specifically pinpointed overhead i.e. the boat explosion in Fool's Gold is heard all around you from the Roku, but using Prime from the TV, it is not nearly as immersive.

So I traded a problem of never getting Atmos to decode to a problem where Atmos is getting decoded with almost every program. One thing I have noticed is that the programs with Atmos labeled in the info decodes as DD+ Atmos, where as the others labeled as 5.1 decoded as Atmos PCM. Another thing I experienced was when the kids were watching Family Feud through Roku, low and behold, it decoded as Atmos ... and switching back and forth from Roku to U Verse, it also sounds different HAHA I cannot even guess how/what is happening ... I could understand the video getting upscaled because I believe the Roku box can do that (although I am sure that the receiver or TV could do it much better).

 

[dante01]

Nothing encoded with Atmos via Amazon is labelled as such. Amazon do not indicate whether or not the content they host includes Atmos.

Jack Ryan was originally the only thing on Amazon that include Atmos. Both season 1 and 2 include Atmos.

All content you get via these streaming services will br DD+ and the Atmos metadata will be packaged with DD+ if and when Atmos is available. The only time you'd get Atmos in conjunction with PCM is if the source is using Dolby MAT to output and convey Atmos. Only Windows PCs, games consoles and the Apple TV 4K currently employ Dolby MAT to facilitate this. The Roku doesn't use Dolby MAT and connoy output Atmos in conjunction with multichannel PCM.

The Roku may be another device that uses Dolby MAT if what you have related is the case?

 

[wasjrx51]

I bought the Roku Ultra so I'm guessing that at least this version Roku must be using Dolby MAT then because you can see that the pictures are showing decoded Atmos PCM ... Since Apple is using it, and they are ostensibly not solely in the business of TV streaming, Roku must have stepped up since it is their business focus ...

At any rate, it indicates it is Atmos decoded and there is a marked audio difference.

 

[Barbar88]

Hello everyone, I have similar problem as well that why I don't wanna open another topic. I have avr Yamaha tsr-7850, klipsch reference theater pack 5.1 and r-41m and whatever I tried I can't get dolby atmos. (I used Netflix for content). My TV Sony x85j and support dolby atmos and vision. Could you please help me to fix this situation. Thank you.

 

[wasjrx51]

First of all, I am not familiar with the Sony TV's any more, so I can't help with that part. The first thing I would check would be that your signal is connected via high speed HDMI cables. The next thing to check is to make sure you're using bitstream and not PCM. You don't elaborate any details of your sources or how you have the system connected, but what I did was connect the sources (in my case, the Roku Ultra, the Panasonic 4K UB420, and the cable box) to the Yamaha and distributed from there. At first, I was using the Netflix app from my TV as a source, and although the picture was outstanding, the audio only came through as 5.1, no matter what I tried. Out of desparation, I decided to buy an Apple 4K, but at the store, the Roku Ultra (my 2nd choice) was on sale for $70, so I bought that instead. After hooking up the Roku, I used it's apps (Netflix, HBO Max, etc.) and was able to get Atmos without any issues, either from Atmos encoded or Dolby Vision. Good luck!

 

[Barbar88]

First of all, I am not familiar with the Sony TV's any more, so I can't help with that part. The first thing I would check would be that your signal is connected via high speed HDMI cables. The next thing to check is to make sure you're using bitstream and not PCM. You don't elaborate any details of your sources or how you have the system connected, but what I did was connect the sources (in my case, the Roku Ultra, the Panasonic 4K UB420, and the cable box) to the Yamaha and distributed from there. At first, I was using the Netflix app from my TV as a source, and although the picture was outstanding, the audio only came through as 5.1, no matter what I tried. Out of desparation, I decided to buy an Apple 4K, but at the store, the Roku Ultra (my 2nd choice) was on sale for $70, so I bought that instead. After hooking up the Roku, I used it's apps (Netflix, HBO Max, etc.) and was able to get Atmos without any issues, either from Atmos encoded or Dolby Vision. Good luck!

Thank you for answering, yes im using 2.1 hdmi same as well on ps5. Also I'm not use PCM i changed to auto mode. But I tried maybe 10 different things, I never have been seen dolby atmos. When I connect TV to avr with arc. Always turn hdmi to audio mode, but when I watch videos always people using hdmi on avr viewing screen. But you gave to me great idea, now I'll try netflix on play station 5. Maybe could be work. When you see your avr screen is dolby atmos, its looking hdmi or audio? Kindly let me know please. Thank you.

 

[wasjrx51]

I hope I answer your question ... The audio and video only goes through the HDMI. I do not use the "Audio Only" connections. As I mentioned, I have the 3 sources connected to the inputs of the Yamaha, then the single output from the Yamaha goes to the TV input. I do not have a PS, so I cannot comment on how good it is as a source. I know my problem was the source even though the video was outstanding. I even upgraded my Blu-ray to 4K because of it's better audio capability.