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Yamaha RX-V630rds or Denon AVR-2802

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by Chucky, Jun 20, 2002.

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  1. Chucky

    Chucky
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    Is it fair compare the two?

    I would really like a Denon 2802 but I know a very cheap place to buy the Yamaha RX-V630 from Germany. It is a £170 saving and the yamaha seems to do everything the 2802 does, just less power.

    So what? Having a reasonable living room with reasonable mission floorstanders and rears, should be ok with Yamaha's 75w/channel. Also, not being an audiophile (more into films) I am not sure I would notice the difference between the two.

    Is 2802 really that much better ? is it worth pay that much more for it?

    On this note.. I think buying from Germany is ok int it?
     
  2. LDR

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    I recently bought a 2802 after approx 3 months of serious demoing of nearly every amp currently in production for that price range, From my point of view the 2802 blew the competion away not only for music, but films also, this was brought home to me the other day when playing my new Iron Maiden Rock in Rio DVD with a DTS soundtrack..****ed all over the CD recording of the same nights performance, and watching The Mummy Returns with a few friends around..the first occasion I have EVER had to turn the sound down..just too damn loud !! Along with DPLII I think you will find the 2802 hard to beat for that sort of money, but thats just my opinion, and am sure others will have theirs.
     
  3. Chucky

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    Actually Yamaha RX-V630 also has DPL II, and can also be very loud. the reviews are saying even at 75w per channel, its more than plenty for even the most power hungry listeners.

    The only thing its lacking is a DTS ES Discrete. But - there are very very few, if any DVDs that use DTS ES Discrete (I dont know of any at all). Whats the point of paying for something you cannot use?

    I see the performance of 2802 the only major advantage. Whether the performance is worth £170 extra - thats my dilemma!
     
  4. LDR

    LDR
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    Thats something only you can decide for yourself..give them a listen & make your own mind up for sure before you part with your hard earned !!
     
  5. nunew33

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    Im about to demo the 630 against marantz 5200 tomorrow. In specs alone the Yamaha looks the winner (has more bells and whistles such as more DSPs (which I will never use), a more comprehensive remote, more options for connectivity (switchable digital I/O), Digital in for front aux (handy for when game consoles become DD), etc). But I want it for music hence tomorrows demo. Will let you know what I think if interested
     
  6. Mr.D

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    Thats great I'm in the market for a 630 myself be interested in your observations.
     
  7. Chucky

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    Is it perfectly safe to buy it from Germany, if you save a good £50-70 pounds on even the best deal in UK ?
    Are there any risks in terms of any standards (the power plug is easy to replacel)
     
  8. nunew33

    nunew33
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    Just spent 2 hours demoing Yamaha 630 vs Marantz 5200. Only got as far as demoing stereo (will go back for DVDs and multichannel monday)

    I am not an audiophile but here is my observations.

    Demoed with My mission 773es, my Sony 735 DVD player.

    Music: Mozarts Requiem (classical), Rattle and Hum - U2 (live) and Spare Ass Annie - William Burroughs (vocal).

    Settings on Marantz: stereo source direct. Yamaha: basic stereo (no source direct).

    using coax connection: Expected yam to be rubbish judging by 620 reviews. There is a detectable difference, but I cant say which is best. The marantz seems to have a better stereo seperation giving a wider soundscape, but marginally so. The Marantz seems to give a clearer high-mid range and is low frequency light (speaker settings were set to Large with no LFE speaker). The Yam on the other hand gave a warmer fuller sound (mozarts requiem track 3 has cello and bass which should have impact there on the yam, light on the Marantz), but seems to do at the cost of clarity higher up. The shop said that this was a trade off that you would expect at this price without biwire/amping etc.

    Using analog connection: The Marantz DAC gave a much better sound than the Sony on board DAC with the Yam it was less noticeable.

    As I say I am not an audiophile so excuse crudeness of descriptions.

    On the shallow side of things:
    Appearance: Marantz wipes the floor. Front facia looks and feels better quality. Marantz needs OSD to set up and remote. Seemed fiddly to get right. Yamaha a lot easier to tweak. Yamaha remote a lot easier to follow and more comprehensive. Shop said Yamaha speaker terminals are crap (wouldnt take banana sockets)!

    Hope this is useful
    Will report again monday after listening to DVDs. As yet undecided.
     
  9. Arith

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    I assume the rxv 630 i the same as the ax 630 i have in that it can accept banana plugs. There is no plug to remove you have to get a screwdriver or knife and twist/cut the thin plastic inner off the binding post cap itself. It is definitely designed for this as the inner ring is so thin, but not obvious at all. Theres a standard binding post under for banan plugs.

    Feels a bit weird getting a brand new amp and having to actually cut plastic out, like your mangling it.
     
  10. konghh

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    Just got a RXV-630 yesterday to replace the Yam RXV-596. Yes, the 630 main speaker terminal does accept banana. Initial impression were:

    596's pro: seems more powerful. Treble seems sweeter but may be that has to do with the modification to accept power cord and it's well run in. More slam factor at expense of sound distortion/less natural.

    630's pro: Much better image, more solid and slightly higher in height. Much better tonal balance. Warmer. More neutral. More quiet background. Much better rear surround speaker terminal vs 596's spring clip.
     
  11. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    Konghh could you please tell me the dimensions of the 630 ?
     
  12. z5461313

    z5461313
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    Hi

    I can comment on these - had marantz sr7200 and swapped to Yamaha 630

    Had the marantz - it looks very nice but the problems - loss of audio on the dvd layer change which causes resultant lyp synch thereafter - loss of power on the cd playback - a pop noise on the dvd layer change - Music was very nice though in direct mode

    But with the Marantz you are also loosing surround sound steering ie front to back

    For example - gladiator - the start of the battle there are some horses that gallop into the scene - on the marantz there is no steering of the horses hoofs through the living room - on the Yamaha it appears that the horses are actually stepping though your living room from front to back

    Similarly - Stars Wars - when the Jedis have to duck to avoid the big tank in the jungle - on the marantz the effects are on the front speakers and back speakers with no panning - on the Yamaha you can actually hear the trees crash from front to back

    Also Die Hard 3 - You can hear the helicopters whiz around your living room on the Yamaha - on the Marantz you don't

    Conclusion is:

    The marantz just does not have the movie steering that the Yamaha has - if your a movie buff I think the Yamaha is the one to go for

    But I would think to spend as much as you can on the Yamaha - the 630 is the entry level - the rx320 and the dpz1 would also offer more on the music side - movies goes without saying that these models would be great

    A last point - the 630 movie theater digital spectacle is now very good dsp and I prefer to use it rather than the normal dd/dts enhanced modes - try it and see

    Prologic II music is also my preferred music listening to - try this also
     
  13. LDR

    LDR
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    But the guy wants to know about a denon 2802..not a marantz !!
     
  14. nunew33

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    The USA web site has the manuals for download. This will give you everything you want to know about the Yam and more.

    My apologies to chucky for steering the postings away from the deonon!

    Thanks z5461313, I will be looking at the surround sound steering today and will see if these problems occur on the 5200
     
  15. hermand

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    This may be a stupid question but...

    Can someone explain to me how two different amps can have this effect when decoding the same DD/DTS source. I can easily understand how one may sound better than the other, but given that DD/DTS contains 5.1 discrete channels, how can a scene with one amp fill the room with sound (i.e. make extensive use of all speakers), and the other only seems to give you effects from the front speakers (my interpretation of the above)

    Anyone have any ideas?

    Cheers

    Herman
     
  16. nunew33

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    Ok. Just demoed them again.

    Didnt have the problems of sound dropping when the layer change occured (no droppage or lip synch). Asked the assistant about this and he said, that an amp works with what it is given, sounds like the dvd player is the problem (refers to issues raised by z5461313 and his marantz sr7200).

    The yamaha was good but just not good enough. It simply didnt control the lower frequencies as well as the marantz. This was especially noticable on Spare Ass Annie and the more demanding Parts of Mozarts Requiem. the yam may have the bells and whistles and sonically in stereo its good but not good enough. (Point to note Unbeatable had the yam RXV630Black priced at £335 and even they say its wrong so anyone who wants to try the old "you must sell at price advertised may be able to save themselves £30)

    The marantz may not have all the bells and whistles but I am confident that I have made the correct purchase (Practical Hifi in Preston who matched teh Unbeatable price and discounted on interconnects - now thats what you call service). Got the marantz for £360 (inc 3yr warranty) + apollo soprano silver 3 shelf £100 (should have been £120 but misquoted), plus 20m cabletalk Excel 3 £50 wand QED 75 digital interconnect was £20 got it for £5. So £515 worse of but feeling I didnt do too bad.

    In DD the Marantz seemed to transfer sound adequately but without the titles z5461313 referred to I cant comment. But one would assume that with enough tweaking that the transfer of sound from front to rear is a matter of speaker settings and delay settings and that as the previous contributer said that if discrete signals are being sent to the speakers that there shouldnt be a difference in terms of sound movement simply in sound quality

    Set it up last night. By the time chioldren in bed, apollo table built, wired up to speakers, wired up to kit it was 11:30pm. SO played Shrek and Crouching Dragon Sleeping Tiger till the small hours with Night setting on. And despite quietness of setup the DD seperation was still involving and crystal clear. Discovered that all the bells and whistles that the Marantz manual didnt refer to but the Yamahas did are in fact there (such as extended controls on universal remote, switchable digital I/O, RDS). Only three bells and whistles that you get with Yam are number of DSP modes, digital in at the front and quoted frequency range (20-100000 Hz for SACD). Marantz was a doddle to set up. Even speaker delays are set up by stating room dimensions rather than spending 2 hours with test tones, and I was able to adjust individual speaker levels to ensure balance. I am very happy with my purchase.
     
  17. Markster

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    Saw this recently, Contrary to popular belief, is the Yam630 therefore actually more powerful than the Marantz 5200 ?!?!?!


    ====================
    The Yam power is 110W (1 channel) and 65W
    (all channels) - that means powerful. Music choice rated the 5200 as 40W (all channels).
    ====================
     
  18. MikeK

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    This may be a stupid question but...

    Can someone explain to me how two different amps can have this effect when decoding the same DD/DTS source. I can easily understand how one may sound better than the other, but given that DD/DTS contains 5.1 discrete channels, how can a scene with one amp fill the room with sound (i.e. make extensive use of all speakers), and the other only seems to give you effects from the front speakers (my interpretation of the above)


    Well, it depends how both have been setup for starters, but assuming they are both set up the same (ie normal surround, with no DSP modes engaged), then you'd have to be looking at the decoder chipset - they aren't all the same, and some are better than others (but to be honest I'd be surpised if as large a disrepancy as noted in the example was due to the chipset - you never know though I suppose)

    Personally have no idea whether the Yamaha's chipsets are any better or worse than the Marantz's ones though.



    Saw this recently, Contrary to popular belief, is the Yam630 therefore actually more powerful than the Marantz 5200 ?!?!?!


    ====================
    The Yam power is 110W (1 channel) and 65W
    (all channels) - that means powerful. Music choice rated the 5200 as 40W (all channels).
    ====================


    I wouldn't worry too much about the figures you read for power output - they aren't all measured in the same way, and some companies massage their figures more than others. Some measure into 4 ohms, some 6, and others 8. Some use a 1KHz signal, while others use a full bandwidth signal (but even then they may be quoting the peak figure at a certain frequency), and some use differeing measuring standards/systems.
    In any case, what a lot of people don't realise is that overall you need ten times the power to go twice as loud.
    The best advice I'd give anybodyif concerned about power, is to totally disregard the specs and have a listen. I've heard (as have many others I suspect), some very modestly rated amps sound far more powerful than some of the 120W/ch brigade.
    It's just that in marketing, 100W seems to be the magic figure for some strange reason. I heard a HK receiver about six months ago - it was only rated at about 40W/ch IIRC, but when listening to it, you'd never guess that - it sounded easily as powerful as the run-of-the-mill 100W/ch contenders.

    Some magazines do power tests under lab conditions, and let's just say some of the results don't exactly tally with manufacturers claims. Of course, at the end of the day, a low power output, still doesn't mean an amp will sound bad.

    What is important is the amount of reserves the amplifier has to meet instantaneous transients in music or soundtracks - these can go to many times higher than the rated output (for an instant)
    on a good amplifier, while they sound like a damp sqibb on others.
    The max output spec doesn't tell you this.
     
  19. z5461313

    z5461313
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    Just to clarify

    It is the steering ie front to back that you notice on the Yamaha my marantz did not do it

    Sound does come out of all 5 speakers - obviously

    You can try anything - even the THX logo at the start where the light bulb? explodes - on the Yam there is noticeable panning from front to back. Armageddon - the lightening on the road - this is more prolific on the Yam

    Only my view
     
  20. nunew33

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    In the shop demo room there, for me, was no discernable difference between the Yam and SR5200 with all DSP off just straight DD decoding. Must be stated that I demoed at relatively low volumes (as I live mid terrace) It was in good old stereo at low volumes that the differences came out

    I set up the 5200 at home yesterday and found that I needed to lower the sound on the centre but everything else was ok (after I had entered distances from listening position to speakers.

    I have a couple of DD demo DVDs and the steering sounded fine. I intend to hire a few "reference" films over the weekend to put it through its paces
     
  21. Ian J

    Ian J
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    Power figures quoted in Hifi Choice are very different to other mags and the manufacturer's quoted statistics.

    The only power figures that matter are with all five channels driven at the same time and in those circumstances quoted figures of 125watts drop to 50watts.

    Frequently it is amps with lower quoted power ratings that actually have more usuable power when tested.

    Fortunately or unfortunately, power ratings are given too high a profile in AV as there are much more important things to consider when buying an amp and the power rating has very little effect on what it actually sounds like.
     
  22. joshua_bond

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    How cheap for the Yam 630 we are talking about? I got the DSP-630se (like the RXV 630 but comes in black and has not got a built-in tuner) at QED-uk.com for £304 incl delivery!

    Joshua...
     
  23. Mr.D

    Mr.D
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    343.99 inc delivery from prc direct.
    7-10 day wait though.
     

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