Yamaha RN-803D and Concept 20's poor sound issues

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by McNally, Apr 21, 2018.

  1. McNally

    McNally
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    Hope someone can help here. I bought this setup last week. Put it together on Thursday and I am really not enjoying it. The sound via Spotify is dull and flat and far too bass-y. It sounds far better coming through an Echo or a Bose wireless speaker. I am outputting at Extreme.

    It isn't much better with CD (which was the main purpose of buying the amp though the streaming was an added benefit). I play a lot of good quality Jazz & Classical CD's though went with some pop today for balance. Nothing. Everything sounds lifeless, boomy and frankly is horrible. My wife notices (and I am not being sexist here - she just doesn't care about hifi or at least didn't till she heard this amp) and prefers to stream through the Echo.

    Friend two doors down has a £5k Tag McClaren system and loves his hifi and we went through the wiring together - albeit briefly - and positives & negatives were aligned - just in case I had screwed up. Tried YPAO and it didn't say Out Of Phase.

    Any guidance? I bought the amp through Peter Tyson and called them on Thursday and was promised somebody would get straight back to me. They haven't as yet.

    Thanks in advance.
     
  2. Rambles

    Rambles
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    Hi. Would your nice friend two doors down agree to you taking your speakers to his house and connecting them to his amp so you could have a listen?

    That would help to identify if the issue is with your amp or your speakers.

    If your speakers sound nice connected to his equipment, then maybe you just don't like the sound from the Yamaha RN-803D.

    I auditioned the Yamaha AS-501 at home, and it sounded really bad in my room. I also had a Marantz PM8005 and a Musical Fidelity M3i on audition an the same time, and they both sounded very much nicer.
     
  3. dollag

    dollag
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    What’s your room like? Have any pics?

    Where are the speakers placed?

    There is clearly a problem I’d an amazon echo sounds better than your system.

    I recently sold a friend my kef r500’s and once set up, sounded very bright and lifeless and boomy. His apartment was laminated with a glass wall and speakers were pushed up against the wall.

    Threw down a thick rug, closed the thick curtains and pulled the speakers out approx 1/2 metre. bam, came to life. He was so shocked. I explained that regardless how good he equipment is, the room imo is more important.

    @Rambles has a point that the equipment might just not work in your room but quite frankly, it still should sound better than a echo and nose speaker
     
  4. McNally

    McNally
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    Thanks. Just did it. Different CD player obviously so a bit more brightness but still sounding like a hippo stuck in the mud. No no clarity, no depth and no feeling. Truly muddy. The reviews are, in the main, glowing and none of them come close to this description but do acknowledge warmth. This amp sounds humid.
     
  5. McNally

    McNally
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    Cheers - speakers are either side of the amp which is on a wide AV table - quite a large room but slightly toed in to a listening position - not trying to fill the room. 200mm from wall on specified Q Acoustic stands. Not being driven hard ( I have neighbours and it's a hot day). Weird thing is my cheapo soundbar sounds better via optical from the CD player. No real stereo separation but vibrant clear sound. Same room, crappier speaker, same CD player and same CD.
     
  6. dollag

    dollag
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    I’ve never heard them personally but my dad has the 3020’s and can vouch that they sound very clean and open.

    At a total loss if I’m honest
     
  7. Ugg10

    Ugg10
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    Did you audition before buying and if so was it the ones you heard in the shop that you took home. If brand new, most speakers take a while to loosen up (20-100 hours played at moderate volume). Also, worth trying to put you amp in direct mode (by passing all tone controls) if it has one.

    Daft question, if the speakers are bi-wirable (4 posts on the back), assuming you are running a single wire, do you have the jumpers in place on the speakers. Sounds like you may only be running the woofers. (Page 9 of the manual).

    Also have you removed the foam bungs in the rear ports?

    If you have Spotify there are test tones on there to see if you are getting a full frequency range. The concept 20’s are a two way design, low range quoted as 64hz and I suspect they will cross over from the woofer to the tweeter around 2-2.5khz (may be a little higher), play test tones 50, 100, 1000 (all on woofer, you may not hear anything at 50), 2k (may be either), 5k, 10k, 15k (all on tweeter, you may not be able to hear 15k depending on age and ears).

    Hope this helps.
     
  8. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    MAKE SURE ...ABSOLUTELY BEYOND ANY SHADOW OF A DOUBT... that the speakers are wired properly. That is critical, nothing will suck the life out of the speakers like one being wired backwards.

    Next, make SURE that the TONE and LOUDNESS are set to FLAT, or the neutral positions. (All Knobs pointing straight up.) Try pressing the PURE DIRECT button and compare that to releasing the button. Pure Direct will bypass all the Tone and EQ.

    Next, where are your speakers placed, though I don't foresee any real problems with placement of Concept 20. Still if they are on a table/counter-top/desktop, that is probably less than ideal. If they are shoved back against the wall, that is less than ideal.

    If the speakers are on a resonant surfaces that is less than ideal. By that I mean, if they are on a surface that is vibrating. For example, my Speakers are on a shelf behind my Computer Monitor. When the speakers hit a bass note, I can feel the desktop vibrate. I've done a few things to try and moderate that, and have been partially successful, but not completely so.

    I have a Yamaha Amp and I had (briefly) the Q Acoustic Concept 20 speakers. They sounded excellent - smooth and clear, and I would say exciting. But I had them on stands place well forward of the wall.

    To make any productive comments, we would need more information about the room - Dimension, Equipment Placement, general structure - large glass windows, carpets, curtains, etc..., fireplace, and anything else that might effect the sound or the placement. The devil is in the details.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2018
  9. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    JUMPER BARS are a real possibility. They should be in-place and making contact. You need to physically check the terminals as a quick glance can be deceiving.

    From this photo I can see that the Concept 20 are bi-wireable, and therefore should have a somewhat thick wire-like Jumper connecting the upper (tweeter) and Lower (woofer) Terminals.

    Concept 20 – Q Acoustics’ best compact speakers – audioFi.net

    [​IMG]

    Again, not only should they be there, but they should be making contact. I've found Jumper Bars to be somewhat unreliable, so I swapped them out for short sections of speaker wire with Ring Terminals.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    But for the moment, just make sure that the JUMPERS are they and making contact.

    What you are saying is not consistent with my personal experience with Q Acoustic Speakers, or Yamaha Amp, though admittedly I have an older Yamaha Amp.

    Demo: Rotel RA-1570 + Q Acoustic Concept 20


    ALSO
    - any chance your friend might let you try your amp on his speakers? And as others have suggested, your speakers on his amp?

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  10. Cornish Dave

    Cornish Dave
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    For two years I had a Yamaha RN602 connected to a pair of Concept 20s. Given the price point the sound was very acceptable, they are a foot clear of the wall behind them and latterly were placed on their own dedicated stands. I still use the Concept 20s with my new amp and for me the sound is superb very bright, good stereo separation and decent bass for a smallish speaker. I cannot imagine that the RN 803 would not sound similar to my RN602 if it was performing correctly. I agree with everything people are saying your receiver and speakers should be a good combination. Trying both it and the speakers out in your friends should identify the culprit be it Amp, Speakers or Room!
     
  11. McNally

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    Thanks Dollag, so am I. I'll just take everything apart and start again tomorrow. Frustrating.
     
  12. McNally

    McNally
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    Thank you all, particularly for the comparisons on the Yamaha / Concept 20 match ups. Fresh start tomorrow. Fingers x'd.
     
  13. McNally

    McNally
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    Sorry. I just realised there were posts I missed. I have the feeling I have made a huge error. I took those thin rods out as I thought they were only for bi-wiring. So basically I need them in? Good grief. What an idiot. I'm on the case tomorrow. Truly embarrassed.
     
  14. Ugg10

    Ugg10
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    Yep, if you have one wire going from the amp to the speakers they need to be there. So without them you will be getting no sound from about 3khz if in the bottom set of connectors and nothing much below if in the upper. I suspect it is in the lower and therefore will sound dull, woolly and have no sparkle. Let us know how you get on.

    Remember black to black, red to red, from amp to speaker and also between connectors on the speaker, picture on page 9 of the manual.

    https://www.qacoustics.co.uk/downloads/qacoustics/Q14765-IS r3 - LOW RES.pdf
     
  15. McNally

    McNally
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    Thank you Ugg10. I will. Your description matches my setup. Cables Pos & neg are both connected to the botton speaker connectors.My wife is looking at me like I'm pond life but mightily impressed by the support given on the forum. Might not be till early afternoon as the offspring has a swimming lesson first thing.
    So positive to red (as connected on the amp) on upper speaker connects and negative to black on lower and make sure the cable is touching the jumper.

    I will feedback.

    Cheers

    McN
     
  16. Ugg10

    Ugg10
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    If you put the jumpers in (r-r, b-b I.e vertical as per blue wizards pics) then you can use either connector on the speaker (as they are now connected), you may want to use both of the bottom two as it may look neater. Then amp red to speaker red and same black to black do the same, do the same for each speaker, right amp to right speaker etc.

    Your speaker cable will either have a stripe or ridge down one cable or if you are luck different colours, just be consistent, I tend to use stripe/ridge for red.

    Look st the top pic (conventional) on here And you can’t go wrong The Well-Tempered Computer

    There is always a debate over bare wire vs banana plugs. First, if you are using bare wire then make sure there are no stray strands before switching the amp on. I prefer plugs so would invest in something like these for ease

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fisual-Eas...qid=1524340213&sr=8-3&keywords=Banana+plugs+8
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2018
  17. McNally

    McNally
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    Just managed to set it up and all is well in the universe. The sound is wonderful. Spotify clear as a bell (remarkably so) and Wichita Lineman is sublime, Miles plays as beautifully as I hoped he would and I am happy till the next temptation to upgrade. Really can't thank everyone enough. My first Bi-wired speakers and clearly a steep learning curve. The manual slightly baffled me if I am honest. However, the joys of belonging to a forum that always delivers. Have a lovely rest of the weekend. I know I'm going to now.
     
  18. Ugg10

    Ugg10
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    Good to hear, now enjoy.

    Worth a listen - Wynton Marsalis - Hot house flowers. Cracking recording, one of the first DDD cd’s and so has not lost anything over time.
     
  19. McNally

    McNally
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    Cheers. And just bought this minute on eBay. Thanks for the recommendation. Looking forward to hearing it. I have about 500 Blue Note, Riverside, Prestige etc CD,s but a goal is is to move to listening to more contemporary players. Big fan of pianist John Law and his various combos. One of the nice things about embracing CD when every else seems to be dumping or ripping is the bargains to be had.
     
  20. Cornish Dave

    Cornish Dave
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    You can enjoy your new kit now!! No need to be embarrassed I get easily confused by all this stuff having been a pen pusher all my life.
     
  21. Ugg10

    Ugg10
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    One of the benefits of Spotify - try before you buy. Plus I love the daily mix and weekly discovery, plus the carry on playing similar stuff features. Have found loads of new stuff that way.
     
  22. dollag

    dollag
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    Same here, it’s the main reason for my subscription
     
  23. Paul7777x

    Paul7777x
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    Me too.

    Also it would take a modest forever to replicate my couple of years worth of playlists on another service.
     
  24. gibbsy

    gibbsy
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    I don't know why speaker manufacturers put bi-wiring posts on their small speaker range as there is very very little, if anything, to be gained by bi-wiring. I just think it's a marketing ploy. Glad you're sorted now.
     
  25. Ugg10

    Ugg10
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    Probably to allow bi-amping, which has slightly more effect on the sound. Plus, bi wire plugs suggest an expensive speaker so more likely a marketing tactic.
     
  26. BlueWizard

    BlueWizard
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    Trust me, what happened to you is more common than any of us would like to admit.

    Steve/bluewizard
     
  27. busterbenny2001

    busterbenny2001
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    Guys sorry to bump old thread, what configuration should I use for single wiring to a speaker with 3 sets of terminals please

    No jumpers so will be using pieces of speaker cable

    They are linn av5140

    Just need to know what order they should be linked and which post the wire from my reciever should go to.

    Damn confusing

    Thanks
     
  28. Ugg10

    Ugg10
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    Image below shows that they originally came with a three hole link bar. In the picture it is set up for biamping - low/mid linked plus separate high.

    In answer to your question plug the single cable from the receiver/amp into the lowest (or any really) binding post making sure you have + to + and - to - (or red to + and black to -) then link vertically up the other posts.

    Manual for your speakers here - Page 15/16 show you how to connect them.

    http://docs.linn.co.uk/wiki/images/7/77/Av_speakers_user_manual.pdf

    [​IMG]
     
  29. Ugg10

    Ugg10
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    What did you think of it ?
     
  30. busterbenny2001

    busterbenny2001
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    Thanks so if we call the bottom binding post a, and I connect from amp to that, do I then connect a to b then b to c with small jump wires or a to b and a to c ?

    Sorry if I’m being slow !
     

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