Yamaha Pure Direct still uses no Subwoofer?

Hi,

I did not even know... but from reading around, it seems when in Yamahas 'Pure Direct' mode the there is no bass management, so no subwoofer is used at all, only the 5 speakers?

I did not even until today know is what 'BASS MANAGEMENT' actually is and it is actually done purely on the AMP! I actually thought movies/games etc had 6 channels lol so I see now it is the AMP which decides to send anything below XXhz to the SUB OUT!? I have found that some newer models of AMPS change things and I often read old posts so am I right to assume the Yamaha RX-A1010 does indeed STILL bypass the subwoofer in 'PURE DIRECT' mode!?



I think I am slowly getting this... maybe... or not.. :suicide:

As a result Pure Direct mode is not appropriate for my games as I first thought, so this is the difference between pure direct and the 'THROUGH' setting on the PEQ!? the 'THROUGH' setting still uses the bass management? but bypasses the EQ!? and the EQ!? is what 'ROOM CORRECTION' is?

So if I want the room correction from YPAO I need to use flat/natural!?

Hmmmmmmm not 100% sure about all this :facepalm:

I am still quite fuzzy on allot of this.

I listen to all stereo music in pure direct mode, however, I do have a super audio CD which I CURRENTLY ALSO listen to in pure direct mode, now, does this also just use the 5 speakers? and not use the SUB at all? or does this have a channel for the SUB.

Or do I need to enable bass management (disable pure direct) on the AMP for the SACD to have the low frequencies sent to the SUB?

Sorry I am pretty new to all this, trying to learn, and sometimes old posts, can be out dated with new gear, I have had this happen to me just recently so I must ask.
 
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jimfrench

Novice Member
The sub IS used in Pure Direct if there is LFE signal being sent. If the games are using it then Pure Direct will use it. Stereo music has no LFE so it it not usable there as the signal would involve processing to allow the crossover setting.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Bass management is still employed while in PURE DIRECT. Speaker sizes and the associated crossover setting of the amp are still applicable while the PURE DIRECT mode is engaged. Frequencies at and below the crossover would still be redirected to the sub even while playing stereo sources in PURE DIRECT mode.

Movies and other media with multichannel audio include a special LFE channel that is intended for the subwoofer and not sent to the conventional speakers (unless a sub isn't present, in which case the LFE channel is sent to the front pair). This LFE channel has nothing to do with the bass management aspects of an AV receiver. The bass management aspects of an AV receiver should not be confused with the LFE channel, the only thing they have in common is that they both involve the subwoofer. Bass management is concerned with the redirection of frequencies away from speakers to the the sub while the LFE channel is automatically designated to the sub without any intervention. The LFE channel present in multichannel formats is sent to the sub irrespective of the bass management settings on the amp.

You'll notice that multichannel formats are depicted as 5.1 or 7.1. The .1 signifies the presence of a dedicated LFE channel. Multichannel SACD is typically 5.1, meaning 5 channels designated to conventional speakers (3/2) and another channel (the .1 LFE) designated to the subwoofer via the amp's subwoofer pre out.

Yes, PEQ is the room correction element of YPAO. PURE DIRECT bypasses the PEQ and the THROUGH setting effectively turns it off. Neither PURE DIRECT mode nor the PEQ THROUGH setting have any impact upon the bass management or the LFE channel.
 
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jimfrench

Novice Member
I have found this subject discussed in a variety of forums and the general consensus is that in Pure Direct mode, there is no sub used unless there is a LFE signal present. I have checked my own RX-A2000 and with stereo sources you can see the sub icon disappear as the system moves to Pure Direct, but with 5.1 channel sources, the sub is still showing as the screen goes off. There is no audible sound from the sub either for stereo, but there is in multichannel signals.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I have found this subject discussed in a variety of forums and the general consensus is that in Pure Direct mode, there is no sub used unless there is a LFE signal present. I have checked my own RX-A2000 and with stereo sources you can see the sub icon disappear as the system moves to Pure Direct, but with 5.1 channel sources, the sub is still showing as the screen goes off. There is no audible sound from the sub either for stereo, but there is in multichannel signals.
Try it. You'll find that the sub is utilised in conjunction with audio lacking an LFE channel and while in PURE DIRECT mode. The bass management is to compensate for speakers that have a narrow frequency range. Why would Yamaha disengage something that is a necessity for some of the smaller satalite speakers? Bass management is active while in PURE DIRECT mode irrespective of what has been said elsewhere.

PURE DIRECT bypasses parametric equalisation and turns off circuitry that would otherwise not be utilised. It does not bypass the levels, distances or the bass management settings.
 
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jimfrench

Novice Member
I did, using Alicia Keys song Unbreakable, which is bass heavy. In Pure Direct, there is no sub used. When turned off there is clearly sound from the Sub.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Sorry, I must apologise. The PURE DIRECT mode does indeed bypass the bass management settings. Something I believed wasn't the case because of the need for bass management in conjunction with smaller speakers.

I guess this will not be so much of an issue for the OP given his speakers capabilities, but would be an issue for anyone using diminutive satellite style speakers that are heavily reliant on the bass management.

The OP shouldn't be that concerned by the lack of bass management in PURE DIRECT mode seeing as his Dali Zensor 7 speakers are very capable in terms of their bass handling abilities. SACD 5.1 formatted audio will still utilise the sub as will all formats that include a dedicated LFE channel. The LFE channel, as previously explained, doesn't require bass management and is sent to the sub irrespective of the settings.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
If the OP is still concerned by this then he may want to consider the purchase of a subwoofer that includes hi pass filtering as well as low pass filtering and RCA line level inputs? This would allow him to connect the sub to the conventional speaker terminal used by the two front speakers. The subs own separate hi level filter/crossover would then be used to filter the front L and R audio, but I'd not personally bother given the Zensor 7 speakers' capabilities.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
There is a way around PURE DIRECT bypassing the bass management. Set the speaker configuration EXTRA BASS setting to ON and the subwoofer will be employed in PURE DIRECT mode even when no LFE channel is present. Note that this doesn't redirect the lower frequencies away from the front speakers though and facilitates their output by both the front speakers and the sub simultaneously. On earlier Yamaha models this was the same as setting the LFE / Bass Out speaker configuration to BOTH.
 
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Very informative stuff gentlemen thank you very much for helping me with this, it is appreciated allot.


but I'd not personally bother given the Zensor 7 speakers' capabilities.
I guess this will not be so much of an issue for the OP given his speakers capabilities

The OP shouldn't be that concerned by the lack of bass management in PURE DIRECT mode seeing as his Dali Zensor 7 speakers are very capable in terms of their bass handling abilities.
I fully read this and left my room in such a way as...




Right now I am glad I spent the extra!
 
Received my Dali E12F today, I can say 100% - all speakers are set to small, crossover is at 90hz and EXTRA BASS is OFF.

I can also say 100% that in PURE DIRECT mode, stereo music is using the SUB.

I have no explanation, and I am drawing no conclusions - simply stating this fact.
 

sergiup

Distinguished Member
Okay, whatever is happening sounds odd, or Yamaha have changed the operation mode of Pure Direct; on my RX-V667, Pure Direct will NOT use the sub UNLESS there's an LFE track in the input. I haven't tried doing this with the "Extra Bass" option switched on, I may try tonight.
 
Okay, whatever is happening sounds odd, or Yamaha have changed the operation mode of Pure Direct; on my RX-V667, Pure Direct will NOT use the sub UNLESS there's an LFE track in the input. I haven't tried doing this with the "Extra Bass" option switched on, I may try tonight.
This was also the case for me, until today when I plugged in my E12F so I have no clue what's happening.

EDIT: It's actually really freaky I don't know why it is doing it, I have triple checked though.

EDIT2: I THINK I GOT IT! - I should have beenusig the LFE input? instead of the L or R Line Input ??? - I dunno, I THINK so... really was nto that clear in the manual and as I used to always use the L or R line inputs on my prev two subs (the Jamo SUB 200 & Eltax Atomic A10.2)
 
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sergiup

Distinguished Member
This was also the case for me, until today when I plugged in my E12F so I have no clue what's happening.

EDIT: It's actually really freaky I don't know why it is doing it, I have triple checked though.

EDIT2: I THINK I GOT IT! - I should have beenusig the LFE input? instead of the L or R Line Input ??? - I dunno, I THINK so... really was nto that clear in the manual and as I used to always use the L or R line inputs on my prev two subs (the Jamo SUB 200 & Eltax Atomic A10.2)
:laugh: yes, that'd definitely be it. You're connecting the AVR's pre-outs to the low-level sub inputs, you should actually be using the sub-out from the AVR. You only need to connect to one of the sub's inputs, I don't think it really matters which one but the sub's manual may be more specific.
By not using the sub-out you would be getting whatever bass was there in the L/R channels but none of the dedicated LFE.1 track, that only goes out of the sub out.
 
What the hell, I'm VERY sorry, I don't understand at all.

I have this



TO THIS

 

scottthehat

Distinguished Member
thats correct the way you have it now, did you have it in the line input before, alot of subs dont have a dedicated lfe channel on the sub, but atleast if you want to listen to pure with the sub you can by swpping over.
 
Great stuff many thanks I think I am understanding more now.
 

ashenfie

Well-known Member
So if you had a sub like a BK XLS200/400 which supports hi/low pass filter to be connected at the same would this solve the issue?

Connect Front Left and Right Speaker see below & addition the LFE.

So when bass management is active the sub still provides bass else BASS is supplied by LFE
 

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dante01

Distinguished Member
So if you had a sub like a BK XLS200/400 which supports hi/low pass filter to be connected at the same would this solve the issue?

Connect Front Left and Right Speaker see below & addition the LFE.

So when bass management is active the sub still provides bass else BASS is supplied by LFE
Yes, you can have both the lo and hi level inputs in use simultaneously, but why bother? It would simply have the same results as setting the EXTRA BASS setting to ON. Bass management has nothing to do with the LFE channel. The LFE channel is sent to the sub regardless of the crossover setting and speaker sizes. The bass management directs frequencies away from the speakers to the sub in accordance with the crossover and as determined by the speaker sizes. The LFE channel is never sent to the speakers, unless you've no sub or you've configure the speaker settings so that no sub is present. In such cases then the LFE is sent to your front speakers and you are given no option other than to designate the front pair as being large.
 
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So if you had a sub like a BK XLS200/400 which supports hi/low pass filter to be connected at the same would this solve the issue?

Connect Front Left and Right Speaker see below & addition the LFE.

So when bass management is active the sub still provides bass else BASS is supplied by LFE
Many thanks guys.

I am sorry, but, I chose the Dali E12F for a few reasons.

I am aware the BK subs are highly regarded on this forum and elsewhere

I am also happy with using the LFE Input.
 
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Holy **** - I am so SICK of being confused I am losing my patience.

My SUb is 100% being used when I playback a stereo FLAC on my PC (in pure direct mode) this is not happening when I playback a CD on my Sony BDP-S790

Soon as I switched to my PC and launched a Stereo FLAC file I heard the SUB CUT IN from the AUTO OFF and it is CLEARLY kicking out bass.

Raging right now, confused, and ... confused.
 

testdasi

Member
Holy **** - I am so SICK of being confused I am losing my patience.

My SUb is 100% being used when I playback a stereo FLAC on my PC (in pure direct mode) this is not happening when I playback a CD on my Sony BDP-S790

Soon as I switched to my PC and launched a Stereo FLAC file I heard the SUB CUT IN from the AUTO OFF and it is CLEARLY kicking out bass.

Raging right now, confused, and ... confused.
A bit hard to tell, do you WANT sub, or do you NOT want sub?

It's quite easy to understand, really. If you have eliminated everything on the amp that may cause it to output LFE channel (to the sub). Then it ought to be in the input. Most CD players only output stereo. PC sound cards are a completely different story.

Many multi-channel sound cards automatically up mix stereo music into surround. My Asus Xonar does it (and does it very well!). Of course, in the process, there is output signal on the LFE channel which through the amp Pure Direct goes straight into the sub.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
It's quite easy to understand, really. If you have eliminated everything on the amp that may cause it to output LFE channel (to the sub). Then it ought to be in the input. Most CD players only output stereo. PC sound cards are a completely different story.
I should point out that the bass management has no effect on the LFE channel. The LFE channel is always sent to the sub regardless of the speaker sizes or the crossover setting on the amp. The only time the LFE channel isn't sent to the sub is if a sub isn't present and the speaker configurations in relation to it or set to FRONT. In this instance the LFE channel is directed to the front speakers. In such a case you can only designate the front speakers as being large. In all other instances the LFE channel is always sent to the subwoofer and cannot be redirected. The audio destined to the other speakers is the only audio that is dealt with by the amp's bass management. The crossover is used to filter it and determine which frequencies are redirected away from the speakers designated as being small. The audio that is filtered is not the LFE channel, but audio original intended to be output by the speakers it is being redirected away from to the sub.

You cannot eliminate LFE output to a sub without removing the sub from the equation completely!
 
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