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yamaha, pioneer or denon, which av/amp is better, need help plez

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by showcase, May 16, 2005.

  1. showcase

    showcase
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    Hi
    i am new to av/amps please be patient :lease: i really need help

    which 1 of the following should i get, or any1 has experience on any of the following

    i am going to set up 7.1, the speakers well the tower ones i think i have decided which ones to get they are b&w DM604 S3, the rest i am still deciding

    i want to get the av/amp first along with the tower speakers

    ok the final list
    yamaha
    rx-v2500 or
    rx-v1500

    whats the main difference the only thing that stood out apart from the watts was zone 2 and 3, what is zone 2 and 3?


    pioneer
    vsx-ax5ai-s
    vsx-2014i-s

    again whats the main difference? one thing i am trying to get my head round is that both are 7.1 but 2014i says 'multi channel input 5.1'?????

    denon
    avr-2805
    avr-3805

    again the only thing i can notice apart from the watts is that 3805 has hdcd-decorder and d.d.s.c-digital-circuit
    which one is better worth the extra?


    i would appreciate any help :lease:
    basically i cannot decide which one to get, more of the case i really do not now what most of the stuff mean apart from the very basic

    appreaciated in advance fro any help
     
  2. skinnyfat

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    Hi there

    I posted a similar thread recently and can offer you the same advice I got.
    At the end of the day all the amps you mentioned are very good and have loads of features and a long history of quality. You wouldn't be making an error if you were to buy any of them. What it comes down to in the end is your personal preference to the way each one sounds. Try and get to a retailer where you can audition them side by side and make a decision from there, remenber you will be living with it! Prize 1 would be to demo them on the speakers you will be using. Multi channel input 5.1 would be for feeding your amp DVD Audio or SACD from the 5.1 outputs on your DVD player if it supports these formats. What will you be using your amp for mainly? Music or movies ?

    Enjoy the shopping

    Skinny
     
  3. MarkE19

    MarkE19
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    Several setups back I was running a Denon 3802 with a pair of B&W DM603s3 at the front. The Denon works very well IMO with B&W speakers, and others on this forum have agreed with me on that, but as said you do need to try as many setups as possible to see what sounds best to you.

    How big is the room the equipment will be used in? If you go for the 604's then the room will need to have loads of space as these speakers need to be kept well away from the walls. The 603's still need a fair amount of space, but not as much, as both of these speakers have a port on the rear and therefore placing too close to the wall will cause all sorts of problems.

    Zone 2 etc is an option to run speakers in another room from the receiver. Sometimes with built in amps, and sometimes with external amps to drive the zone 2 speakers. Depending on how the receiver is setup you can sometimes use the zones as a recording loop for a tape deck/CD recorder etc.

    AFAIK both the Pioneer receivers have the multi channel inputs. As already stated these are used for connecting a DVD-A/SACD player as the decoding can only (normally) be done in the player unless connected by iLink.

    Mark.
     
  4. Astaroth

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    showcase - the other thing to remember with different models is that whilst on the features list 2 models may be almost identical you can have a significant difference in the quality of comonents that are used but this wont show on the kind of lists you mention.

    As the others have said the best thing you can do is audition the systems you have short listed with the speakers you intend to buy. Denon in my opinion is exceptional for AV work but isnt the best with music. I auditioned both the 3805 & 2805 when I was looking to get a new AVR and did feel the 3805 did sound significantly better than the 2805 - in the end I went for the lower model as I know I will replace it within a couple of years when the HD audio formats are out and established
     
  5. showcase

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    thanks for getting back - made a few things clear

    the room where the speakers are going to sit is pretty big 14foot length i think well approx and an avarage on the width but not small.

    i got an 50" dlp, so gotta get all the stuff

    i will be watching movies mostly abit of music, just say 85% movies and 15%music

    i will go and test the amps out
    but still very vary on what to get - thinks like yamaha rx-v2500 or
    rx-v1500
    denon avr-2805 or avr-3805

    are the higher models what i should be looking i.e denon 3805, yamaha v2500 or pioneer ax5ai

    do the small bits and peices make alot of difference when going for higher models?

    the set up i got in mind goes somthing like this

    av/amp connected to 7.1 speakers including sub
    av/amp connected to dlp tv
    av/amp connected to dvd
    av/amp connected to sky

    dvd connected to dlp tv aswell
    sky connected to dlp tv aswell

    all the above will be via component - is this ok

    i want to connect my pc up aswell so i assume the sound connected to av/amp and dvi connected to dlp tv

    basically i want to ste it up right, so have really good sound and pic

    from the av/amp list which one is or which 2 should i be really looking at

    i hope its not toooo much, just trying to get my head round a few things, any help :lease: is much appreciated

    cheers
     
  6. Harry T2

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    My view is that I would be looking at the higher spec'd models due to the speakers you are using. The 604's would benefit from the "better" power supply that they would have.

    You could always get the lower spec'd model, and if they started to run out of gas, add a power amp to supplement the receiver.
     
  7. skinnyfat

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    I agree with Harry

    Try to spend as much as your budget can allow. If you have a budget of say 1000.00 and have committed yourself to that then there's no real point to only spending 700.00, you'll only end up being dissapointed. I know, this happened to me :( .

    Connecting what you have mentioned would be fine. Bear in mind that the amps you are looking at all have component up-conversion AFAIK.

    IMHO I would look at the Denon 3805 and the Yammy 2500. I have auditioned both in many different demo rooms and they always impress.

    Again, just my opinion

    Skinny
     
  8. showcase

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  9. MarkE19

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    Upconversion is feeding a composite (say a VCR) or S-Video (STB etc) video signal into the receiver and it will convert the signals and output them to your screen as a component video signal. This reduces the number of cables required, but does not improve the picture quality.
    AFAIK = As Far As I Know.

    :lesson: And stop saying sorry, after all we were all new to this game at some point. It is/was by asking questions that we all learn :thumbsup:

    Mark.
     
  10. skinnyfat

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    Showcase

    Like MarkE19 says, no need to keep apologising, home cinema is an overwhelming venture when you start out, with so many variables and unknowns. The advice I give is not the best advice out there, it is the best advice that I can give you having gone through the same process you are going through now. Like I said before, get to a retailer and listen to the amps you are interested in, they are both excellent. Any respectable retailer should take the time and effort to assist you with ANY query you have. If they dont, try another. In the same way as people become loyal to a brand ,salesman know people can become loyal to a retailer/supplier. I spent 1.5 hrs at a retailer/specialist and the salesman was so patient and helpful that I now deal almost exclusively with him. Good luck and happy shopping.

    Skinny
     
  11. showcase

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    i'm back

    before i go and demo the denon and yamaha down to 2 now so cheers

    is there anything else i should now, what to look out for? cuz it no point me getting them demoed when i do not now what i am looking for - the sound i assume should be as clear as whats happening on the pic obviously, but anything else


    also what does most stuff mean this is when i'm looking at the spec for both yamaha and denon (the product spec) - there is sooo much technical stuff, to come to the point what are the main things i need to look at

    cheers again
     
  12. Dfour

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    You want to listen to them with movies and music as they both have there own sounds. You will notice when you hear them back to back. You should also look for ease of setup and use and how friendly the remote control is.

    See if they are still controlled at high and low volume with movies and film.

    Happy demo'ing :D
     
  13. showcase

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    ok at last after soo much research i come down 2 two

    yamaha rx-v2500
    denon avr-3805

    i'm looking around where i can demo these

    ok i'm confused

    the av/amps - when connecting dvd and sky how? and where?

    the denon/yamaha info sheet states
    video inputs:
    - 3 component inputs are these for pic only? what about sound?
    - 7 composite inputs what are these used for? sound?

    video outputs
    - 1 component monitor input i assume for tv (pic and sound?)
    - composite output what for?


    i other stuff........ but getting my head round the above first
    i have the sagem axium 50" dlp

    appreciated in advance if someone can explain the above
     
  14. Harry T2

    Harry T2
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    Hi Showcase,

    Those three component inputs are for video only. There will be a corresponding analogue input for the sound and several digital input (optical and co-ax) that you will be able to assign through the menu.

    One component output for the TV. Sound normally isn’t sent to the TV, as it directed to dedicated speakers attached to the amp.

    One composite video – you probably will not use this. It is mainly for people with projectors, where they have a secondary screen to access the receivers menu functions or DVD-A menus. Not sure on the specific functions of the receiver, but they may also be able to send video to a 2nd zone.
     
  15. felix_li

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    Oh No... :confused:

    Why you take out the AX-5Ai...I went thru the exact exercise in last Dec. and finally got the AX-5Ai...
     
  16. showcase

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    still considering it, but as u have experience of it, what is it like? i have read more about the yamaha and denon then the pioneer, so abit more about those 2, not many people have gone for a pioneer, not sure why?

    are the spec the same, as the other two?
     
  17. showcase

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    hi
    firstly thanks for replying back to me, somethings have made alot off sence now

    please can someone go through what, and how to connect everything together, i nw how to connect stuff but i just dont want to do it wrong, or blow somthing up.
    well the amp/av to tv, dvd, sky box, video

    there are so many options/ inputs and outputs behind the three receivers, but i assume the connection to most stuff will be the same for all three, i want to get a really good pic and sound, so what will be my best options, also i nw the cables make alot of difference, which should i get??

    life is getting abit easy nw, sooo thanks for helping me out
     
  18. Harry T2

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    Hi Showcase.

    I think now would be a good time, sit down, take a deep breath and relax.

    Connecting everything up.

    Audio and video can be handled differently. Audio will be directed to the amp in either a digital or analogue form, and you have the choice of connecting the video to the amp and then to the display or directly to the display (or possibly a combination of both).

    Bypassing the amp, theoretically, gives the best connection as it removes all unnecessary connection. Going through the amp allows you to minimise the number of cables connecting the display to the source. It also allows you to increase the number of sources you can connect to the display.

    There is nothing stopping you from connecting the DVD (video component) direct to the display, and the Sky and VCR to the amp and then to the display (or any variation of this provided the display has the necessary number of inputs).

    So lets assume that you will connect everything via the amp.


    Amp to display > component video output to component input

    DVD to amp > component video output to component input. Audio (either coax or optical) output to amp input.

    VCR to amp > best video connection (S-video if available before composite) to corresponding connection type on amp. Audio will be connected via an analogue connection to the corresponding input.

    Sky to amp > I am not in England, and not sure of what connection are on the back. But the same principle hold as above. If an digital audio connection is available then use this instead of an analogue.

    If you are using your DVD player as a CD, you may even want to connect this to the amp via an analogue connection to a different input.

    The above is not written in stone, as variation may occur for specific circumstances.

    And apologies if I have confused you. It does sound a lot more complicated than it actually is.
     
  19. felix_li

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  20. showcase

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    Hi

    firstly appreciated, for all the responce i am getting, and thanks for the patience, i just need to get my head round most of the stuff as i am new to this

    ok the question

    by connecting the dvd player via av/amp and the av/amp connected to the tv will there be a loss of pic quilty

    instead connecting the dvd to and av/amp and connecting the dvd to the tv


    also is it worh me getting an av/amp that has hdtv (720p/1080i) as i have a dlp tv (sagem axium 50") as it supports both of these. will it make alot of differnce to the pic quality?

    cheers
    in advance
     
  21. MarkE19

    MarkE19
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    In theory connecting the DVD player directly to the PJ/plasma/LCd screen will give a slightly better PQ. In practice as long as it is a good quality AV receiver you should see very little or even no loss of PQ by going via the receiver.
    The advantage of going directly to the TV is that you have less cables to buy, the disadvantage is if you have more sources than inputs on the TV then you will ned to play around with cables each time you switch sources.

    AFAIK there is no such thing as an AV receiver that has HiDef. If video is passed through the receiver for video switching then most of them should have a high enough bandwidth to carry HiDef video.
    When the new HD DVD players start to be released they will be capable of uncompressed DD/DTS which no current receivers can decode. There is a possability that a few might be able to be software upgraded to handle the new audio formats, but it is too early IMO to say that any receiver or processor is future proof. The new new HD discs should however be backward compatable and also have a compressed DD/DTS audio track that can be decoded by current receivers.

    IMO it is unlikely that HD players will be affordable to the likes of you & me for at least a couple of years. Therefore you should buy a system that does what you want now rather than waiting till HD arrives. Otherwise you are likely to be without an AV system for a while yet.

    Mark.
     
  22. showcase

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    Hi
    cheers, for the reply, i'll plan out how i'm going to set it all up and then see how it may all work, also i'll post again with the set up (well hope to be my setup)

    but i thought the yamaha 2500 had hi-def, in the spec and manual it does state 'hdtv (720p/1080i) compatibility'
    or i'm i miss understanding?????



    can someone also tell the difference between composite and progressive - are they both component????? red,blue and green sockets - sos mind gone blank cannot rememeber what they are known as
     
  23. MarkE19

    MarkE19
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    It may well be hdtv compatable, but being compatable and being an actual hidef product are completely different. As I said before, as long as the connections have enough bandwidth then they will pass through a hidef signal.

    Composite is the lowest signal type and is normally a single yellow phono lead and is not component.
    Progressive signal is where the complete screen is updated in a single pass, rather than odd line on one pass and even on another ie interlaced. Progressive scan is normally via YUV component connection, but can also be via RGBHV (or DVI/HDMI if digital).

    Are you getting confused between composite and component above?

    Mark.
     
  24. showcase

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    Hi
    cheers for the reply

    i dont seem to understand the difference between interlaced and progressive and which one will be better for my dlp sagem axium 50" tv

    so i assume composite is for audio only and component for picture? so when connecting the component do i have to have another cable to connect to composite?

    cheers in advance
     
  25. MarkE19

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    Interlaced: lines 1, 3, 5, 7 etc get updated on the first pass. Then lines 2, 4, 6, 8 etc get updated on the second. So in effect it takes 2 goes to update the complete screen/picture.
    Progressive: The coplete screen/picture is updated on each pass. This gives a sharper picture and is better then interlaced.
    If DVD player is progressive (most are) and so is the TV (most CRT TV's are not) then use a progressive signal for best results. As said to get a progressive signal to the TV you will need to connect DVD via YUV component - normally Red, Green & Blue phono (or BNC) cables. If the TV does not have a YUV component input then it will not be progressive compatable.

    Composite is a low quality video only signal and is not used with a YUV component connection. It is the video output from a basic VCR etc and should only be used when there is no other option. It is carried on a single phono cable with yellow plugs, but is also carried within a scart. Stereo audio is normally carried on a pair of red & white coloured phono leads, and is also carried within a scart.

    Mark.
     
  26. dazjmarshall

    dazjmarshall
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    Hi there,

    I won't go into the detail of Interlaced and Progressive, as others have done this already. I believe that Progressive is the better quality AFAIK.

    You do not say what DVD player you have, so will assume that it has component output connections? You will need to set this to (probably) 720P Does it have a DVI or HDMI connection?

    If it does, then run the DVI/HDMI lead directly from the DVD to the socket on the Sagem (the 50" has a DVI connection like mine). This is a better video connection that Component. (I have a Sagem HP-D45 DLP ).

    For audio, run a digital coax from DVD to the Input on the AMP.

    For SKY, I run an RGB SCART to the TV and Optical lead from the Sky output to the input on the AMP.

    Hope that helps ..

    Cheers,
    Daz
     
  27. showcase

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    thanks for all the help everyone, i realy need it :lease:

    i am keeping my options open at the moment for everything.

    this is what i plan to do,

    firstly i am looking to get av/amp and tower speakers for my 50" sagem axium
    planning to get them within 2 months.
    made my mind up as i have a pretty large back room to go for a 7.1 setup, then i will hopefully get the the center and back speakers when i have the money hopefully within 4 months.
    and then the dvd player and htpc after that, pc iam planning to connect via dvi and the rest via component

    if u think any of the above is wrong way to go, plez tell me

    at the mo i am going to demo yamaha 2500 and denon 3805, and maybe pioneer ax5ai
    probably leaning towards the yamaha and denon

    the tower speakers well if my budget allows then b&w 604-s3, unless someone has a better option........ i can consider probably cheaper
    for the speakers i am loking for really good sound quality

    cheers for the help on interlaced and progressive - another dum question; how can i tell when i connect it up that i have choisen progressive and not interlaced?


    cheers in advance
     
  28. MarkE19

    MarkE19
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    There are normally 2 ways of selecting between interlaced & progressive:

    From within the setup menu select the component output type
    or
    From a button on the remote, this should display the selection on the screen.

    I've had a few different DVD players where one of the above options have been used. I also owned an Arcam DV27 for a while and on that you had 2 sets of component outputs, one was interlaced and the other progressive. I have never seen this on any othe DVD player though.

    Mark.
     
  29. showcase

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    Hi

    does anyone own the following av/amps
    denon 3805 and yamaha 2500 and connected either 5.1 or prefabably 7.1 speakers to it, which i am going to set up

    basically would like to nw how good these av/amps are, if anyone is willing to share their experience regarding these av/amps, had any problems? are they easy to set up? and also do u lose pic quality when connecting the dvd player to the amp and the amp to the tv, so the dvd picture goes through the av/amp first

    cheers in advance for any information
     
  30. skinnyfat

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    Hi

    Check this thread out
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212151
    Its short and new but answers your question
    May help a bit, only with the yammy 2500 though

    Cheers
     

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