Yamaha 7.1 AVRs Upmix 5.1 to 7.1 Even in PURE DIRECT and No Longer Support Single Back Surround Speaker

dante01

Distinguished Member
I've recently encountered a member on this forum that catagorically disputes that modern day Yamaha 7.1 AV receivers forcefully upmix to 7.1 even if set to STRAIGHT or PURE DIRECT modes. This will happen if the setup includes back surrounds and has been the case since at least the RX-Axx50 models circa 2015.

Example. The following shows what an A1080 does to a discrete 5.1 source in a 7.1 setup inclusive of back surrounds while set to its STRAIGHT mode:

by default 2021-10-29 at 13-1.55.32.png



Note that the 5.1 source is being upmixed to 7.1 despite the AV receiver not being set to any mode that would ordinarilly do this. The AV receiver was set to its STRAIGHT mode and will behavee in the exact same way if set to its PURE DIRECT mode.

This anomaly is nothing new and has been discussed previously on this board. One member even contacted Yamaha to find out why his AV receiver was doing this. He was told that it is intentional, not a fault and that Yamaha are fully aware of this behaviour. As far as Yamaha are concerned, this is normal.

So if you've a setup inclusive of back surrounds and if the source is 5.1 in nature, the AV receiver will upmix the 5.1 source and utilise your back surrounds regardless of the mode you are using. THis basically prevents 5.1 sources being portrayed by just the speakers ordinarilly associated with a 5.1 setup and forces the audio to be upmixed to 7.1.


I've atarted this topic because I can no longer find the posts where this was originally brought up for discussion and because of the disbelief expressed when I raised it again recently.


The last model I encountered that allowed this was the A1050, but I've no exact idea as to exactly when Yamaha ceased provision for a single back surround?

You used to have to connect the one back surround to the left back surround speaker terminals in the same way as this kind of setup is still possible if using a DEnon or a Marantz AV receiver, but as said, this is no longer an option if using more recent Yamaha models.


Another matter raised was the use of just one surround back speaker if using a Yamaha 7 channel model or models that facilitate the use of back surrounds. While Yamaha used to accomodate a 6.1 setup with a single back surround, they no longer do so and you cannot now have just one back surround in any setup on any of Yamaha more recent models.
 
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3dbinCanada

Standard Member
I've recently encountered a member on this forum that catagorically disputes that modern day Yamaha 7.1 AV receivers forcefully upmix to 7.1 even if set to STRAIGHT or PURE DIRECT modes. This will happen if the setup includes back surrounds and has been the case since at least the RX-Axx50 models circa 2015.

Example. The following shows what an A1080 does to a discrete 5.1 source in a 7.1 setup inclusive of back surrounds while set to its STRAIGHT mode:

View attachment 1598982


Note that the 5.1 source is being upmixed to 7.1 despite the AV receiver not being set to any mode that would ordinarilly do this. The AV receiver was set to its STRAIGHT mode and will behavee in the exact same way if set to its PURE DIRECT mode.

This anomaly is nothing new and has been discussed previously on this board. One member even contacted Yamaha to find out why his AV receiver was doing this. He was told that it is intentional, not a fault and that Yamaha are fully aware of this behaviour. As far as Yamaha are concerned, this is normal.

So if you've a setup inclusive of back surrounds and if the source is 5.1 in nature, the AV receiver will upmix the 5.1 source and utilise your back surrounds regardless of the mode you are using. THis basically prevents 5.1 sources being portrayed by just the speakers ordinarilly associated with a 5.1 setup and forces the audio to be upmixed to 7.1.


I've atarted this topic because I can no longer find the posts where this was originally brought up for discussion and because of the disbelief expressed when I raised it again recently.


The last model I encountered that allowed this was the A1050, but I've no exact idea as to exactly when Yamaha ceased provision for a single back surround?

You used to have to connect the one back surround to the left back surround speaker terminals in the same way as this kind of setup is still possible if using a DEnon or a Marantz AV receiver, but as said, this is no longer an option if using more recent Yamaha models.


Another matter raised was the use of just one surround back speaker if using a Yamaha 7 channel model or models that facilitate the use of back surrounds. While Yamaha used to accomodate a 6.1 setup with a single back surround, they no longer do so and you cannot now have just one back surround in any setup on any of Yamaha more recent models.
Looks like we were both wrong but at different parts.

Yamaha still supports a single surround back speaker. I've taken the following snapshots from the RX-A3060 manual.

surround_back-2.JPG


The yellow highlighted section clearly shows surround back and if only one is to be connected, then one uses the SBL. It is very much in support. Yamaha goes further onto say that ..

surround_back-1.JPG


That being said, my RX-A3060 configuration has a surround back plus atmos front speakers. When playing 7.1 material, I get sound coming from the surround back as shown below. Based on both the manual and screen shots Yamaha definately supports a single surround back channel.

IMG_5976.jpg


What I don't get is sound coming from the surround back from 5.1 sources and this is confirmed by the next attachment.

IMG_5970.jpg


My error was thinking that Pure Direct for HDMI signals would bypass bass management and distance and only play through the stereo pair. When I hit Pure Direct, I still had all channels playing but without the PEQ filters. The sound definately changed going from Straight to Pure Direct. In retrospect, it makes sense because the AVR detects the inputs. I will need to measure using REW if speaker distance settings are still being used in Pure Direct Mode. This can easily be detected through the transition between speakers and sub. If the distances are not used, I will expect to see a notch in the transition area.

Pure Direct is only Pure Direct on analog only signals and bypasses all DSP including settings determined from the result of running YPAO.
 

Kapkirk

Active Member
Looks like we were both wrong but at different parts.

Yamaha still supports a single surround back speaker. I've taken the following snapshots from the RX-A3060 manual.

View attachment 1599133

The yellow highlighted section clearly shows surround back and if only one is to be connected, then one uses the SBL. It is very much in support. Yamaha goes further onto say that ..

View attachment 1599137

That being said, my RX-A3060 configuration has a surround back plus atmos front speakers. When playing 7.1 material, I get sound coming from the surround back as shown below. Based on both the manual and screen shots Yamaha definately supports a single surround back channel.

View attachment 1599143

What I don't get is sound coming from the surround back from 5.1 sources and this is confirmed by the next attachment.

View attachment 1599140

My error was thinking that Pure Direct for HDMI signals would bypass bass management and distance and only play through the stereo pair. When I hit Pure Direct, I still had all channels playing but without the PEQ filters. The sound definately changed going from Straight to Pure Direct. In retrospect, it makes sense because the AVR detects the inputs. I will need to measure using REW if speaker distance settings are still being used in Pure Direct Mode. This can easily be detected through the transition between speakers and sub. If the distances are not used, I will expect to see a notch in the transition area.

Pure Direct is only Pure Direct on analog only signals and bypasses all DSP including settings determined from the result of running YPAO.
Glad about the 6.1 thing and the single rear on the newer amps, my speakers are built in the walls, still running an 17 year old 6.1 ch DSP630se but want to upgrade soon so still want single rear ch plus 2 extra atmos at front. I don't get sound through single rear unless I hit the EX/ES button on the remote during 5.1 DD, then I get 6.1 with rear, and I DO love my rear sfx.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Yamaha no longer provide provision for connecting just one back surround speaker

Current Yamaha models do not facilitate having just one back surround. No idea as to when they ceased provision for this exactly, but it happenrf domewhere between the launch of thecxx60 and the xx80 Aventage models.

While my RXA1050 still include this option, my RXA1080 doesn't and nether do any of Yamaha's current models.


Here's the rear of an A1050:
by default 2021-11-08 at 04.29.02.png


comoared to that of an A1080:
by default 2021-11-08 at 04.30.20.png




Again, there's no longer any provision to connect a single back surround.

Page 17 from the A1080's manual:
by default 2021-11-08 at 04.55.52.png

There's no longer any mention of connecting just one single back speaker.The reason being is that Yamaha no longer provide any provision for a 6.1 setup or the connection of just one surround back speaker.



Here's the back surround yerminals on the RX-A8:
by default 2021-11-08 at 04.39.50.png


Again. no option to connect a single back surroun or indeed mention of being able to do so it the A8's manual.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
After some fairly basic research, the last Yamaha models to include provision for a single back speaker were the models released in 2018. The Yamaha Aventage A70 models were basically the last Yamaha models to include this ability. All models launched since then do not include anyy abity to have a setup with just one back surround. The last RXV model ro have this provision was the RXV683, again launched in 2018 and it was omitted on the subsequent V85 model.

No model since 2018 or currently includes any ability to have a setup with just a single back surround.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Maybe also worth mentioning that on the DEnon and Marantz models that gascilitate just one back surround, you cannoy engage that single speaker if using the Dolby Surround Upmixing mode. DSU doesn'r apparently offer any support for 6.1 snd requires at least 2 back surrounds if wanting to engage the back surrounds. I see no reason why Yamaha receivers would differ so can only assume that the older models inclusive of this ability and DSU will be similarly handicapped?
 

oniiz86

Active Member
Maybe also worth mentioning that on the DEnon and Marantz models that gascilitate just one back surround, you cannoy engage that single speaker if using the Dolby Surround Upmixing mode. DSU doesn'r apparently offer any support for 6.1 snd requires at least 2 back surrounds if wanting to engage the back surrounds. I see no reason why Yamaha receivers would differ so can only assume that the older models inclusive of this ability and DSU will be similarly handicapped?
I believe selected D+M models since last year's November 2020 update now offer support for Front Wides & single Surround Back (Mono) speaker configurations, this was taken from a German presentation with Denon Europe's Product Manager Roland Krüger
DSU FW & SB Mono Support November 2020 Firmware Update.png
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
If so then I'm assuming that those models will be the ones that received the latest implimentation of Dolby's software, the version inclusive of Dolby Virtual Height processing? THe older Yamaha models that can still fascilitate a single back speaker haven't and aren't scheduled to get this revision.

It should also be noted that no Yamaha model includes any support for front Dolby width speakers.
 

oniiz86

Active Member
Yes that's correct, the 2019 D+M models were one of the first to receive Dolby's Atmos Height Virtualizer back in August 2019.

It is a shame that Yamaha no longer offer single Surround Back 6.1 speaker configurations, I believe the last Yamaha models that supported 6.1 were from 2016, the RX-Ax060 range, its amazing that D+M still offer it even with the lower end 2021 S760H & X1700H models.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The last ranges to offer support for a single back surround were the V83 and the A70 models.

After some fairly basic research, the last Yamaha models to include provision for a single back speaker were the models released in 2018. The Yamaha Aventage A70 models were basically the last Yamaha models to include this ability. All models launched since then do not include anyy abity to have a setup with just one back surround. The last RXV model ro have this provision was the RXV683, again launched in 2018 and it was omitted on the subsequent V85 model.

No model since 2018 or currently includes any ability to have a setup with just a single back surround.



All subsequent models lack this ability.
 
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Cryfreman

Active Member
My 3080 does the 5.1 to 7.1 also no matter what I do, kinda annoying. Also noticed from the pictures above the 3060 info button shows Bitrate, always niggled me it doesn’t show on the 3080.
 

oniiz86

Active Member
The last ranges to offer support for a single back surround were the V83 and the A70 tangmodelss.





All subsequent models lack this ability.
Yes, you are correct it was the 2017 ranges that last offered this support, this from the RX-A3070/2070 manual,

Yamaha A3070-2070 SB 6.1 Support.png
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
My 3080 does the 5.1 to 7.1 also no matter what I do, kinda annoying. Also noticed from the pictures above the 3060 info button shows Bitrate, always niggled me it doesn’t show on the 3080.


Yeah, my A1050 has a bitrate entry within the info panel, but this is absent from the info on my A1080. It has to be said that the bitrate was only given relative to some sources and not others though.
 

oniiz86

Active Member
My 3080 does the 5.1 to 7.1 also no matter what I do, kinda annoying. Also noticed from the pictures above the 3060 info button shows Bitrate, always niggled me it doesn’t show on the 3080.
Yeah I appreciated that too, it's a shame the more recent ranges have removed that, as the years go by, they add more features but take away more signal format information as well as make the front panel display smaller like Yamaha's revamped AVR design.
 

3dbinCanada

Standard Member
Yamaha no longer rovide provision for connecting just one back surround speaker

Current Yamaha models do not facilitate having just one back surround. No idea as to when they ceased provision for this exactly, but it happenrf domewhere between the launch of thecxx60 and the xx80 Aventage models.

While my RXA1050 still include this option, my RXA1080 doesn't and nether do any of Yamaha's current models.


Here's the rear of an A2050:
View attachment 1599179

comoared to that of an A1080:
View attachment 1599181



Again, there's no longer any provision to connect a single back surround.

Page 17 from the A1080's manual:
View attachment 1599183
There's no longer any mention of connecting just one single back speaker.The reason being is that Yamaha no longer provide any provision for a 6.1 setup or the connection of just one surround back speaker.



Here's the back surround yerminals on the RX-A8:
View attachment 1599182

Again. no option to connect a single back surroun or indeed mention of being able to do so it the A8's manual.
 
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3dbinCanada

Standard Member
So xx070 series was the last model to support a 6.1 configuration. Thats unfortunate as not everyone has room for 7.1 . What I have posted about the upmixing for my setup to 7.1 holds true. It doesn't. I also miss the Yamaha orange. It set them apart from the "me too" look of the other AVR manufacters.

If I should loose the A3060 model, I believe I will start looking at other manufacturers. I don't understand why Yamaha would drop such a basic speaker configuration when its so easily supported.
 
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Kapkirk

Active Member
So on the newer receivers why cant you set the it to 7.1 and only attach 1 rear speaker? surely the receiver will still think there are 2 speakers attached and out put rear effects. I assumed the rear effects were mono anyway, ie the same sounds enters both rear speakers which is why most manufacturers just advise to connect to left ch.
If 6.1 is def not available on the yamaha's then that is a shame as I will not be getting another Yamaha, there is no way I'm going to dig out my speakers from the wall and buy 2 more and then dig out more holes for a pair.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
So on the newer receivers why cant you set the it to 7.1 and only attach 1 rear speaker? surely the receiver will still think there are 2 speakers attached and out put rear effects. I assumed the rear effects were mono anyway, ie the same sounds enters both rear speakers which is why most manufacturers just advise to connect to left ch.
If 6.1 is def not available on the yamaha's then that is a shame as I will not be getting another Yamaha, there is no way I'm going to dig out my speakers from the wall and buy 2 more and then dig out more holes for a pair.


Because in a conventional 7.1 setup the 2 back surrounds have each got independant channels. For want of a better way of putting it, they are stereo in nature. Onboard an AV receiver that allows for a single back surround, the AV receiver mixes the 2 back channels down into a single mono channel.

If you just hook up one speaker to an AV receiver that doesn't fascilitate having just one back surround 2 things would be amiss. For starters, the AV receiver will detect the absence of one of the back speakers and not complete its auto calibration. It will assume the other one is not connected correctly. Even if you fooled the AV receiver into believing you'd 2 back surrounds present, the audio it would portray would not be an amalgimation of both the back surround channels portrayed in mono, it would just be the audio associated with the channel you'd connected that speaker to because the AV receiver isn't down mixing both channels down into a single back surround channel.

The basic answer is that for it to work you actually need the AV receiver to know that there is only one back speaker present so that it can mix both back surround channels down into one amalgamated channel.

Manufacturers advise you use the left channel because the AV receiver is designed to recognise that a user may want a 6.1 setup if only the left back soeaker is detected during the calibration process. The AV receiver will acknowledge that you want a 6.1 setup if it detects just the left hand speaker during the auto calibration and It would then proceed to process 7.1 sources accordingly, mixing down the independant back channels into one mono channel ro be output by the one back speaker connected to the left back surround terminals.

It isn't a matter of simply omitting a speaker, the AV receiver processes the audio differently if there's only one back surround present. The independant back 2 channels are mixed down into a mono single channel in a 6.1 setup.

The fact that you'd only have one mono speaker portraying both back channels is probably also why Dolby don't support 6.1 floor layouts relative to Atmos setups. The phase differences between the 2 independent back channels are used to place objects in the room in the same way as your front stereo speakers create relati=vely detaileds soundstages. You'd not have this ability if using a mono back speaker and the speakers location would dicatate where an object is perceived to be.


There's also a little thing termed image reversal to take into account. This is where we
hear a mono sound directly behind us and our brain perceives it as coming from ahead of us. This was one of the major reasons for 7.1 superseding 6.1. Even when 6.1 was new, it was recommended that you split the mono back channel between 2 back speakers in order to try prevent the psychoacoustic effect of audio image reversal.
 
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3dbinCanada

Standard Member
So on the newer receivers why cant you set the it to 7.1 and only attach 1 rear speaker? surely the receiver will still think there are 2 speakers attached and out put rear effects. I assumed the rear effects were mono anyway, ie the same sounds enters both rear speakers which is why most manufacturers just advise to connect to left ch.
If 6.1 is def not available on the yamaha's then that is a shame as I will not be getting another Yamaha, there is no way I'm going to dig out my speakers from the wall and buy 2 more and then dig out more holes for a pair.
I have a support case opened to Yamaha about this very thing.
 

3dbinCanada

Standard Member
Here's Yamaha's response...

back_surround.JPG

Yamaha creates its own based on the input then so one still gets output from a single back.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Sorry, not at all sure at to what you've posted actually relates to?

Anyway, it makes little sense.


Here's a Yamaha response to what?



For a start, you'd not even get the AV receiver to complete the calibration if you connect just one back surround to any of the current models or the models that preceeded them. Secondly, yes, most 7 channel soundtracks do include independent anf not monaural back channels. Atmos in particular uses the phase difference to place objects.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Why not simply copy and paste what was said?



AS I've said, you've asked about your model. The more recent models no longer have this ability. Yamaha no longer make any AVR able to have a 6.1 setup with a single back surround.

E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
 

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