Yamaha 7.1 AVRs Upmix 5.1 to 7.1 and No Longer Support Single Back Surround Speaker

dante01

Distinguished Member
Accepted, but which later model user manuals? If seems even the RX-A3080 manual is wrong, it has taken a long, long time to fix the manual as only now says that in the units which have just finally rolled out!


I'm under the impression that the A80 models and the V85 models were the first to specifically mention this in their manuals?

The behaviour predates these models though and as I've said, dates back to at least 2015.
 
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FrankV

Standard Member
The receiver digitises all imputs, including analogue inputs even if PURE DIRECT is engaged.
I have just proved this is incorrect with my RX-A3070 on the bench. The pre-amp from Audio In1 to Front Preamp out in PURE DIRECT mode is measuring just 3dB down at 470kHz and 6dB down at 670kHz. That would have to be quite some ADC and DAC to achieve that!
In STRAIGHT mode bandwidth struggles above 35kHz, suggesting 96kHz sampling rate - which is a bit of a waste of the AK5386VT ADC for the main channels and the ESSxxxx DACs. Yamaha must have limited the sampling rates due to DSP capability I would guess.
What is relatively poor is digital bandwidth through to the Zone2 output which drops to around 22kHz, suggesting a 48kHz sampling rate.
 

3dbinCanada

Active Member
I have just proved this is incorrect with my RX-A3070 on the bench. The pre-amp from Audio In1 to Front Preamp out in PURE DIRECT mode is measuring just 3dB down at 470kHz and 6dB down at 670kHz. That would have to be quite some ADC and DAC to achieve that!
In STRAIGHT mode bandwidth struggles above 35kHz, suggesting 96kHz sampling rate - which is a bit of a waste of the AK5386VT ADC for the main channels and the ESSxxxx DACs. Yamaha must have limited the sampling rates due to DSP capability I would guess.
What is relatively poor is digital bandwidth through to the Zone2 output which drops to around 22kHz, suggesting a 48kHz sampling rate.
It gets tiring argueing with a guy that sees the world as flat. Bandwidth Mmasurements made by Gene Lasalla (i may have butchered the spelling of his last name) at Audioholics suggests that analog signals do NOT get digitized in Pure Direct.
 

FrankV

Standard Member
It gets tiring argueing with a guy that sees the world as flat. Bandwidth Mmasurements made by Gene Lasalla (i may have butchered the spelling of his last name) at Audioholics suggests that analog signals do NOT get digitized in Pure Direct.
It's Gene Dellasala :)
Up to a week or so back I was under the impression that analogue signals are digitised even in PD mode, probably because I read it somewhere from someone like "dante01" and was stupid enough to take it at face value. However, in an email exchange with a friend (also an engineer) he said he thought otherwise and pointed to Amir's ASR test of an RX-A1080 which put to bed any notion of always being digitised in PD mode. I then took the trouble to obtain and pore over the RX-A3070 service manual circuits and confirmed pure analogue is indeed possible, case closed in favour of engineering facts.

Yesterday I had my AVR on the bench to look at a problem (HDMI2 output dead) and took the opportunity to run some bandwidth tests. Amir's test included the power amp because that was what he was interested in, I just measured the preamp and found the results as posted above. Case not only closed, but now nailed firmly shut with my own direct evidence!
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
In reference to PURE DIRECT and whether or not analogue sources would be digitised while engaging this mode.

Yamaha themselves state this, not me. This is based upon what is related to owners by Yamaha's own customer service representatives. Customers are told that all sources would be digitised regardless of the mode you engage on the AV receiver.

If it has since emerged that this is not the case then so be it.

If anything, this helps me to substantiate what I was trying to convey to someone else on this board who insisted that the PEQ room correction was still in effect while in the PURE DIRECT mode. As far as I'm aware, this simply is not the case. If it were then the source and the signal would have to have been digitised.
 
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3dbinCanada

Active Member
Yamaha's customer service has deteriorated quite a bit since covid and I find their responses vague and circular having to nail them down for direct responses.
 

FrankV

Standard Member
If anything, this helps me to substantiate what I was trying to convey to someone else on this board who insisted that the PEQ room correction was still in effect while in the PURE DIRECT mode. As far as I'm aware, this simply is not the case. If it were then the source and the signal would have to have been digitised.
Correct and very easy to prove. Go into manual DSP settings and set some silly but easy to hear settings and then switch between straight and pure direct, the difference will be obvious. This is the reason I believe it to be a mistake in Straight mode to drive speakers by remixing the source. It is the domain of the other surround remixing modes that Yamaha have if a user wants all speakers driven regardless.
In order to be a useful setting, Straight should not mess with the source at all, but still allow speaker/room calibration to remain active, otherwise what real purpose does Straight have?
I still do not believe Yahama's supposed reasons for changing it (DTS licencing, desire for customers to hear their rear speakers - which is it?) but have to accept we will never know for sure. What may be likely is if it was a bug originally and they covered it with one of above excuses then they would have to stick with it going forward or they would lose face if they reverted to how it probably should be. Also, if their reason for wanting customers to hear all their speakers in this mode, why not mix in the presence speakers too? Something is not right but we will never really find out, just have to accept it as it is - not the end of the World!
 

3dbinCanada

Active Member
I have two speaker configurations that I use, one for music, PEQ is set to through and speakers set to small and the other is for movies where PEQ is set to flat and speakers set to small.That way, when listening two 2 channel, I can turn the sub on and off with Pure Direct and listen to my main speakers full range without PEQ and sub. I check the music setup from time to time and the subs remain silent when in Pure Direct during heavy bass management.

I had a debate with dante and he believes that speaker distances and levels are still being used in (PD) Pure Direct. Im of the opposite opinion saying that levels and distances are not being used in PD because PEQ needs that information to EQ the speakers and PEQ is turned off. I guess its easy to proove using REW by taking measurements before and after making adjustments to the levels and distances.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
In order to be a useful setting, Straight should not mess with the source at all, but still allow speaker/room calibration to remain active, otherwise what real purpose does Straight have?
I still do not believe Yahama's supposed reasons for changing it (DTS licencing, desire for customers to hear their rear speakers - which is it?) but have to accept we will never know for sure. What may be likely is if it was a bug originally and they covered it with one of above excuses then they would have to stick with it going forward or they would lose face if they reverted to how it probably should be. Also, if their reason for wanting customers to hear all their speakers in this mode, why not mix in the presence speakers too? Something is not right but we will never really find out, just have to accept it as it is - not the end of the World!


I agree, but Yamaha do this and are adamant that it is intended and not a bug. I'm not defending them or suggesting that they are correct, I'm stating what is the case and what Yamaha say about it.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
I have two speaker configurations that I use, one for music, PEQ is set to through and speakers set to small and the other is for movies where PEQ is set to flat and speakers set to small.That way, when listening two 2 channel, I can turn the sub on and off with Pure Direct and listen to my main speakers full range without PEQ and sub. I check the music setup from time to time and the subs remain silent when in Pure Direct during heavy bass management.

I had a debate with dante and he believes that speaker distances and levels are still being used in (PD) Pure Direct. Im of the opposite opinion saying that levels and distances are not being used in PD because PEQ needs that information to EQ the speakers and PEQ is turned off. I guess its easy to proove using REW by taking measurements before and after making adjustments to the levels and distances.


PURE DIRECT compleyely bypasses and ignores all bass management being carried out by the AV receiver. All speakers will be regarded as full range and only a discrete LFE channel would be output to your active sub if and when such a channel is present. Two channel audio doesn't include an LGE channel.

PEQ is also bypassed by the PURE DOIRECT mode, as well as all other forms of DSP. THe speaker levels and distances (delays) are however still in effect.

The levels and the distamces have nothing to do with PEQ or the EQ correction processing. If you manually alter the levels or the distances then the PEQ curves are not effected, neither are the distance or levels effected if you set PEQ to THROUGH. They are 2 seperate elements of the setup and run independently of one another.

THe room EQ correction, the bass management and the disantes andd the levels are not all the same thing despite all being done in association with the initial calibration you perform with the mic.


PEQ does not need either the speaker levels or the disnce settings to EQ the speakers. THey are two totally different elements of the setup.
 
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FrankV

Standard Member
I have two speaker configurations that I use, one for music, PEQ is set to through and speakers set to small and the other is for movies where PEQ is set to flat and speakers set to small.That way, when listening two 2 channel, I can turn the sub on and off with Pure Direct and listen to my main speakers full range without PEQ and sub. I check the music setup from time to time and the subs remain silent when in Pure Direct during heavy bass management.

I had a debate with dante and he believes that speaker distances and levels are still being used in (PD) Pure Direct. Im of the opposite opinion saying that levels and distances are not being used in PD because PEQ needs that information to EQ the speakers and PEQ is turned off. I guess its easy to proove using REW by taking measurements before and after making adjustments to the levels and distances.
It is feasible to do speaker differential volume adjust as volume is done in the analogue routing/volume ICs. Delay would normally be done in a DSP, so certainly not in place for PD mode and neither would bass management. It will depend on the source of course, I'm talking about for analogue inputs. For digital inputs, these will route through to the DACs by definition, so there would be an opportunity to apply whatever Yamaha wanted to, even in PD mode. Testing would be required.
What I did stumble across was with a digital source (Amazon Firestick into an HDMI input) that regardless of the audio over hdmi output setting, that audio disappears when switching to PD. I guess it makes some sense, who needs audio over the main hdmi out at any time with an AVR in place? Useful for another zone though.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
It is feasible to do speaker differential volume adjust as volume is done in the analogue routing/volume ICs. Delay would normally be done in a DSP, so certainly not in place for PD mode and neither would bass management. It will depend on the source of course, I'm talking about for analogue inputs. For digital inputs, these will route through to the DACs by definition, so there would be an opportunity to apply whatever Yamaha wanted to, even in PD mode. Testing would be required.
What I did stumble across was with a digital source (Amazon Firestick into an HDMI input) that regardless of the audio over hdmi output setting, that audio disappears when switching to PD. I guess it makes some sense, who needs audio over the main hdmi out at any time with an AVR in place? Useful for another zone though.


If what you say is corrext then you are incorrect when stating that no digital processing occurs while in PURE DIRECT.

Both levels and distances are maintained in PURE DIRECT. You can easilly vewrify this and you setup would sound wrong if this were not the case. Timing would be out and the setup would not be balanced.

Pre digital AV receivers still had the ability to adjust the delay.


By the way, PD works with all sources, even those sourced via HDMI and regardless of format. You appear to be suggesting otherwise? The DAC would still be utilised in such instance because the AV receiver is dealing with a digital source.
 
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FrankV

Standard Member
I have two speaker configurations that I use, one for music, PEQ is set to through and speakers set to small and the other is for movies where PEQ is set to flat and speakers set to small.That way, when listening two 2 channel, I can turn the sub on and off with Pure Direct and listen to my main speakers full range without PEQ and sub. I check the music setup from time to time and the subs remain silent when in Pure Direct during heavy bass management.
I have LXmini+2 speakers for my main and centre speakers so everything goes through the digital domain at some point for the active crossovers. I designed and built my own very high quality DSP system (132dB dynamic range) and added additional inputs so I can take balanced inputs from my phono preamp or S/PDIF from my CD player and of course added volume. This way I can easily bypass the AVR complelety for analogue music and CDs. I do use the AVR for streamed services. I included an LFE input from the AVR with individual PEQs to four sub outputs. The subs are optimised by MSO to reduce uneveness of the LFE channel around the room. I haven't done so yet, but this configuration would allow me to do some bass management for music to the corner subs without the AVR running should I ever wish. My DSP unit runs at 192kHz throughout:
1644689345960.png
1644689381489.png

Anyway, getting off topic, sorry about that!
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
If wanting a setup that adds additional stereo repro benefits then consifer getting an external 2 channel stereo integrated amp with HT bypass. THis way you can still use the same stereo front speaker, but you'd not nescessarilly need topass the 2 channel source through the AV receiver. Such sources could be connected directly to the stereo integrated amp and the amp would simply need to be set to a setting other than its HT bypass option. While set to the HT by[pass option, the external amp would behave just like an external power amp.

If wanting to integrate a sub into both the AV and the stereo setup, consider using one with a dedicated hi level neutrik input. THose that include this also incorprate seperate controls onboard that sub for both the lo level LFE input and the hi level neutrik input.

The Neutrik connection is via the left and right speaker terminals so the sub would be engaged even if the speakers are being treatyed/regarded as full range.
 
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FrankV

Standard Member
If what you say is corrext then you are incorrect when stating that no digital processing occurs while in PURE DIRECT.

Both levels and distances are maintained in PURE DIRECT. You can easilly vewrify this and you setup would sound wrong if this were not the case. Timing would be out and the setup would not be balanced.

Pre digital AV receivers still had the ability to adjust the delay.


By the way, PD works with all sources, even those sourced via HDMI and regardless of format. You appear to be suggesting otherwise? The DAC would still be utilised in such instance because the AV receiver is dealing with a digital source.
It would be better if you actually read what I have written! I have always been referring to analogue sources in PD mode, basically stereo. In digital mode they may or may not be molested and what I was saying is that any digital source does go through the DSP (3 of them in series actually if you study the circuits) so there is an opportunity to process before they hit the DACs. I did not say that they do process and to what degree, testing would be required. For example, do the presence channels work with an Atmos source in PD mode? I've not checked.
 

FrankV

Standard Member
If wanting a setup that adds additional stereo repro benefits then consifer getting an external 2 channel stereo integrated amp with HT bypass. THis way you can still use the same stereo front speaker, but you'd not nescessarilly need topass the 2 channel source through the AV receiver. Such sources could be connected directly to the stereo integrated amp and the amp would simply need to be set to a setting other than its HT bypass option. While set to the HT by[pass option, the external amp would behave just like an external power amp.
Who are you directing this to? I need 6 channels of amplification for my 3-Way LXmini+2 and another 2 channels for the 2-way center LXmini.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Who are you directing this to? I need 6 channels of amplification for my 3-Way LXmini+2 and another 2 channels for the 2-way center LXmini.


It wasn't directed at you, it was intended for 3dbinCanada. Neither am I suggesting it is the definitive option, just one way of dealing with it.
 

3dbinCanada

Active Member
It is feasible to do speaker differential volume adjust as volume is done in the analogue routing/volume ICs. Delay would normally be done in a DSP, so certainly not in place for PD mode and neither would bass management. It will depend on the source of course, I'm talking about for analogue inputs. For digital inputs, these will route through to the DACs by definition, so there would be an opportunity to apply whatever Yamaha wanted to, even in PD mode. Testing would be required.
What I did stumble across was with a digital source (Amazon Firestick into an HDMI input) that regardless of the audio over hdmi output setting, that audio disappears when switching to PD. I guess it makes some sense, who needs audio over the main hdmi out at any time with an AVR in place? Useful for another zone though.
Interesting. I just tested one HDMI input on the 3060 which is connected to an Iomega stand alone media streamer and I still get audio on PD. PEQ is set to through and the input is set to auto decode for streaming music. Same results for streaming movie iso through the Iomega except PEQ is set to flat. It looks like Yamaha are rewriting the rules with every release year.
 

3dbinCanada

Active Member
If wanting a setup that adds additional stereo repro benefits then consifer getting an external 2 channel stereo integrated amp with HT bypass. THis way you can still use the same stereo front speaker, but you'd not nescessarilly need topass the 2 channel source through the AV receiver. Such sources could be connected directly to the stereo integrated amp and the amp would simply need to be set to a setting other than its HT bypass option. While set to the HT by[pass option, the external amp would behave just like an external power amp.

If wanting to integrate a sub into both the AV and the stereo setup, consider using one with a dedicated hi level neutrik input. THose that include this also incorprate seperate controls onboard that sub for both the lo level LFE input and the hi level neutrik input.

The Neutrik connection is via the left and right speaker terminals so the sub would be engaged even if the speakers are being treatyed/regarded as full range. If you'd like to still include some form of low end room EQ them maybe look at a DSpeaker Antimode? There are other options, but they will more tham likely cost you more money.
It works better for me this way, is far less complex, and is cheaper to implement.
 

FrankV

Standard Member
Interesting. I just tested one HDMI input on the 3060 which is connected to an Iomega stand alone media streamer and I still get audio on PD. PEQ is set to through and the input is set to auto decode for streaming music. Same results for streaming movie iso through the Iomega except PEQ is set to flat. It looks like Yamaha are rewriting the rules with every release year.
What media were you playing into the HDMI input? I was running Amazon Music, so a stereo source. I didn't try it with a Dolby encoded source, maybe it is different. I'll check again when I get a chance.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
What media were you playing into the HDMI input? I was running Amazon Music, so a stereo source. I didn't try it with a Dolby encoded source, maybe it is different. I'll check again when I get a chance.


It makes no difference as to what the source is or how it is formatted. All HDMI sources will be portrayed by the AV receiver while the AVR is set to its PURE DIRECT mode. The only thing that differs is the degree of processing available relative to that source. Dccoding wouldn't be negated though.


I've no idea as to why you aren't experiencing this. Maybe its an issue with the Fire Stick, but why would setting the AV receiver to PURE DIRECT cause the Fire Stick to start behaving differently?


EDIT


Just realised that you are talking about passing the source through the AV receiver. Is this correct? If so then I'm not sure as to what that would result in and I'd have to run some tests. It shouldn't theoretically effect the ability to pass the unadulterated source straight through the receiver though?



What I did stumble across was with a digital source (Amazon Firestick into an HDMI input) that regardless of the audio over hdmi output setting, that audio disappears when switching to PD. I guess it makes some sense, who needs audio over the main hdmi out at any time with an AVR in place? Useful for another zone though.


Zone 2 HDMI out is technically independant of the main zone, but PURE DIRECT may limit or negate some of the processing associated with conveying digital audio to that additional zone?

You can actually get the AV receiver to mix multichannel sources down to just 2 channels while passing it through and still be able to depict that same source as a multichannel source in the main room. Not tried this in PURE DIRECT though.


It isn't possible to use the AV receiver's Bluetooth transmitter to convey audio if and when PURE DIRECT is engaged, but this isn't anything to do with a second zone.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
RE: Zones and PURE DIRECT:

by default 2022-02-12 at 19.41.20.png




"When Pure Direct is enabled, the following functions are not available.

Using the multi-zone function."


This explains why you lose the audio if attempting to pass it througfh the AV receiver.


The main room setup should still be able to portray it regardless of whether or not you access it via HDMI. This goes for 2 chhannel or multichannel formatted audio.
 
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3dbinCanada

Active Member
RE: Zones and PURE DIRECT:

View attachment 1652886



"When Pure Direct is enabled, the following functions are not available.

Using the multi-zone function."


This explains why you lose the audio if attempting to pass it througfh the AV receiver.


The main room setup should still be able to portray it regardless of whether or not you access it via HDMI. This goes for 2 chhannel or multichannel formatted audio.
I agree with this. I have two cassette decks attached to the AVR and I use zones 2 and 3 as tape monitor out so that I can use the record capabilities of the decks. Instead of powering off all the zones off seperately, I engage PD which turns off zones 2 and 3. I then power off the main unit.
 

FrankV

Standard Member
I've tested again. First time was on my bench with HDMI 1 out to an Iiyama 43" 4k monitor. Firestick connected to an AVR HDMI input. Switching to PD the sound on the Iiyama speakers stopped.

Now I have tested back in the media room with an LG TV on HDMI 1 and Satellite TV source on an AVR HDMI input. With both stereo and surround sound broadcasts, as soon as I select PD the sound on the TV stops. I can't test HDMI2 out as another zone because it is dead. I do not use other zones, I did use the second HDMI to feed my projector in parallel to the TV before there was a power surge during a thunderstorm which took out the input card to the projector and the HDMI 2 out on the AVR.

If my AVR is unique with this happening, perhaps it is to do with the partially dead MN864787 HDMI transmitter chip. The HDMI 2 outputs route from this chip to the socket via passive inductive filters and semiconductor ESD suppressors. The pins on the chip are virtually zero ohms to ground on the dead pins, slightly higher on the socket side of the filters, so 100% sure it is a dead area on the HDMI chip. This is a monster chip (216 pins) and HDMI 1 also comes from this ic. Perhaps in PD mode, audio is taken from a different input and maybe this is dead also, only thing I can think of for being different.
I'll ask my friend with an RX-A3080 to test his and see what it does.
 

FrankV

Standard Member
Interesting. I just tested one HDMI input on the 3060 which is connected to an Iomega stand alone media streamer and I still get audio on PD. PEQ is set to through and the input is set to auto decode for streaming music. Same results for streaming movie iso through the Iomega except PEQ is set to flat. It looks like Yamaha are rewriting the rules with every release year.
Just want to double check: your Iomega source is connected to an HDMI input, yes? I guess you a have a TV on HDMI 1 output, probably with the sound permanently turned down and probably have HDMI 1 audio turned in the AVR settings? If so, could you turn HDMI sound on, turn up the volume on your TV (avr volume turned down) and check you have sound on the TV speakers. Then switch to PD, do you still have sound on the TV speakers?
 

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