Yamaha 7.1 AVRs Upmix 5.1 to 7.1 and No Longer Support Single Back Surround Speaker

3dbinCanada

Active Member
Sorry, not at all sure at to what you've posted actually relates to?

Anyway, it makes little sense.


Here's a Yamaha response to what?



For a start, you'd not even get the AV receiver to complete the calibration if you connect just one back surround to any of the current models or the models that preceeded them. Secondly, yes, most 7 channel soundtracks do include independent anf not monaural back channels. Atmos in particular uses the phase difference to place objects.

My single back surround channel is calibrated. Would you like a screen shot as proof?
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
AGAIN, that is your AV receiver, a model predating the newer models that definitely DO NOT HAVE THIS ABILITY!


Have you not bothered reading anything that has been posted?
 

3dbinCanada

Active Member
"For a start, you'd not even get the AV receiver to complete the calibration if you connect just one back surround to any of the current models or the models that preceeded them."

I was responding back to the bold text that you stated. You should actually reread your posts before accusing people of being parrots.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
After some fairly basic research, the last Yamaha models to include provision for a single back speaker were the models released in 2018. The Yamaha Aventage A70 models were basically the last Yamaha models to include this ability. All models launched since then do not include anyy abity to have a setup with just one back surround. The last RXV model ro have this provision was the RXV683, again launched in 2018 and it was omitted on the subsequent V85 model.

No model since 2018 or currently includes any ability to have a setup with just a single back surround.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
OK. Calm heads please.
 

3dbinCanada

Active Member
Why not simply copy and paste what was said?



AS I've said, you've asked about your model. The more recent models no longer have this ability. Yamaha no longer make any AVR able to have a 6.1 setup with a single back surround.

E's passed on! This parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! 'E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker! 'E's a stiff! Bereft of life, 'e rests in peace! If you hadn't nailed 'im to the perch 'e'd be pushing up the daisies! 'Is metabolic processes are now 'istory! 'E's off the twig! 'E's kicked the bucket, 'e's shuffled off 'is mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!! THIS IS AN EX-PARROT!!
Did I say it made a 6.1 setup for the later models? No I didn't. All I said was that Yamaha will still produce a signal on the Left Surround Back if one is connected. I'm now asking Yamaha what information is being used to generate this 6th channel.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
Did I say it made a 6.1 setup for the later models? No I didn't. All I said was that Yamaha will still produce a signal on the Left Surround Back if one is connected. I'm now asking Yamaha what information is being used to generate this 6th channel.
No thery fo not. That is a fact. No current model will facilitate you having a single back surround. None of the models that the current models replaced had this ability either.

Everyone can see the evidence I posted. Some have even commented that this is the case.

You are looking rather stupid if you keep insisting it can still be done.

Come fly to the UK and visit me and see if you can get my receiver to do it. If you can then I'll pay your air fare.


And no, the AV receiver will not continue with the calibration if only one back surround is connected to any of the newer models. It will reoport an error vecause it will detect that one of the back surrounds is missing.

by default 2021-11-09 at 16.15.25.png






ERROR 4

One of the surround back
speakers cannot be detected.
 
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3dbinCanada

Active Member
Jesus H Christ



meaning the A80 and the V85 models. This has been gone over in depth already!
This "discussion" is about generating a 6th channel. You stated in your research that from A80 to V85 models and the new model line up that its no longer being done. Stating the term previous models would be before A80/V85 model where the change first took place. Logically, the differentiating line in this arguement is when the change took place.
 

3dbinCanada

Active Member
No thery fo not. THat is a fact. No current model will fascilitate you having a single back surround. None of the models that the current models replaced had this ability either.

Stop atguring the toss. Everyone can see the evidence I posted. Some have even commented that this is the case.

You are looking rather stupid if you keep insisting it can still be done.

Come fly to the UK and visit me and see if you can get my receiver to do it. If you can then I'll pay tour air fare.
Are you arguring with Yamaha on this? I simply posted an email response from Yamaha and you get your nickers tied up in a knot? Wow!! I will continue to follow through with Yamaha on this raising all the pertinent points you are bringing up. You seriously need to chill.
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
I think I've posted enough to substantiate what I've said? (rhetorical question)


If you want to keep pretending what I've said isn't a fact then you are simply making yourself look silly without any help from me.



This discussion is not about creating a sixth channel, it is about the inability of all current Yamaha models to have a setup with only one surround back speaker and the fact that Yamaha 7 channel receivers create pseudo back channels even if in PURE DIRECT mode. I should know what the topic is because it is my thread.

I'm already aware that older models (predating the V85 and A80 models) are able to fasxilitate just one back surround. This topic is not discussing your AV receiver!
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
I have a RX-A6A, when using pure direct does it respect the small speaker and crossover setting?

No, PURE DIRECT negates and bypasses the processing associated with bass management so the settings associated with the speaker sizesand associated crossovers would not be in effect. All speakers would be regaded as full range whiler in the PURE DIRECT mode. The discrete LFE channel would still be sent to the sub if and when an LFE channel is present.

Also note the Parametric room EQ correction is also not in effect while you are using the PURE DIRECT mode.
 

Khazul

Well-known Member
So if you've a setup inclusive of back surrounds and if the source is 5.1 in nature, the AV receiver will upmix the 5.1 source and utilise your back surrounds regardless of the mode you are using. THis basically prevents 5.1 sources being portrayed by just the speakers ordinarilly associated with a 5.1 setup and forces the audio to be upmixed to 7.1.

Well part of me agrees with Yamaha here (depending upon exactly what they are doing and what assumption they have made) .

My reasoning is that with a 5.1 system, the rear pair tend to be placed roughly between where the sides and rears would be. So actually, there is no speaker in a 7.1 setup that correspond to the rears in a 5.1. Of course there are debates on the ideal location for the rears in a 5.1, but they generally end up between where the 7.1 sides and 7.1 rears would be.

So, in order to correctly reproduce the sound localization of 5.1 on a 7.1 system, ideally you would be up-mixing the rear channels of 5.1 to the sides and rears of a 7.1 with prominence given to the sides. I think if you look at dolby atmos setup and take there mid points of their suggestion location, then perhaps they assume that and upmix appropriately.

I think that when such upmixing is done, I may prefer to have a means to tweak the upmix split.

Of course this assumes they are doing it following above logic or similar - they may not be :)

This is my reference: Dolby Atmos Speaker Setup Guides

There is one caveat where I do not have an immediate reaction one way or the other and that is pure direct mode. It bypasses bass management and my feeling is it should also bypass any upmixing etc as well. TBH I dont think I have ever actually used pure direct with an HDMI source at a time whenh I am paying attention to exactly what it does - only ever used it for stereo analog sources.

Straight mode behaving the way I describe I would be OK with, but probably not if it is doing something more. I have a 5.1.2 so I cannot easily check what my Yamaha AVR does.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
Yeah, but I think the issue is that some peoplevwould still like the option to portray 5.1 encoded sources as they were mixed. There's even still demand for original mono soundtracks to be made available despite modern day AV receivers being multichannel in nature. Surely if you engage Pure Direct then you'd expect the audio to be portrayed as close to how it was originally mastered as possible? Why force people to not have the freedom to choose whether or not the audio is upmised to engage the back surrounds?

There;s also the fact that Yamaha make no mention of this upmixing within their manuals or literature. When originally discussed, the owner who encountered it had to contact Yamaha to ask wheher this was intended or a fault with his AV receiver.


EDIT. Newer models from the A80, V85 and onward do now include information in their manuals that informs users of the upmixing.
 
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Khazul

Well-known Member
Yeah, but I think the issue is that some peoplevwould still like the option to portray 5.1 encoded sources as they were mixed.


I think that pure direct and straight modes may need to be considered separately. That doesn't mean I disagree with having the option, it just means that I think pure direct should really mean exactly that, Whereas straight is the DSP enhancement free mode (no ambience etc), so I am OK with a basic upmix being available here and think it should be. I also agree that in straight mode, there should be an option for how 5.1 is presented on 7.1. After all there is a DSP option to do the opposite (7.1 on a 5.1).

Ultimately, once setup, I think most users will want to almost never have to fiddle with DSP according to what content they are watching and the AVR one set by the user should be able to apply the appropriate desired processing without further interaction.

Actually, I would like options to reduce the level of processing the standard mode applies, or have some of the DSP active in straight mode (Mine is not an aventage series and I know they are more capable in this respect, its an RX with a bunch of aventage series features and behaviors unlike it siblings - so half way :)).
 

Jay53

Well-known Member
It's certainly interesting and I can see both sides as it's a question of what to do with 5.1 when you have a 7.1 setup.

Looking at the setup guides for 7.1 the surrounds are 90-110 degrees from MLP. With 5.1 they are 110-120. So unless in a 7.1 setup you have your surrounds at 110 then they are in the wrong position for 5.1 getting worse the nearer you get to 90.

Which means do you leave the sound coming from the wrong position or do you employ techniques to make the sound appear that it's coming from the correct position.

I guess Yamaha are doing the latter for 5.1 on a 7.1 setup presumably on the basis people are likely to have the surrounds in a 7.1 config nearer to 90 than 110?

Still should give the option though :)
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
The Dolby recommended layout is neither here nor there. Yamaha do not include the Dolby layouts in their exact form within their manuals as guidance for users so refering to them regarding the forced upscaling makes little if any sense,


The user should ideologically be given the option as to whether upmixing is applied or not, especially is a user is engaging the PUURE DIRECT mode. This is also made worse by the fact Yamaha do not make it apparent that this is being done. Why are they avoiding publicing the fact in their literature? They admit it when asked, but do not openly declare the fact in their manuals.


Can anyone find the orginal thread where this was discussed? I'm under the impression that Yamaha in some way blamed DTS for this?
 

samana

Standard Member
No, PURE DIRECT negates and bypasses the processing associated with bass management so the settings associated with the speaker sizesand associated crossovers would not be in effect. All speakers would be regaded as full range whiler in the PURE DIRECT mode. The discrete LFE channel would still be sent to the sub if and when an LFE channel is present.

Also note the Parametric room EQ correction is also not in effect while you are using the PURE DIRECT mode.
The plot thickens...

Screen Shot 2021-11-15 at 11.35.58 AM.png
 

dante01

Distinguished Member
The distance and levels settings are maintained regardless of the mode you set the AV receiver to, but bass management and the Parametric EQ filtering is negated by engaging the PURE DIRECT mode. These 2 elements are not in effect while using PURE DIRECT.

If using STRAIGHT then PEQ, bass management as well as the speaker distance and levels are in effect. STRAIGHT bypasses SUR. DECODER upmixing and DSP PROGRAM processing.

The exception is the receiver will still upmix any 5.1 source to 7.1 regardless of the mode you set it to if you've a setup inclive of back surround speakers. This is still the case even if you engage STRAIGHT or PURE DIRECT.



EDIT. For anyone doubting that PEQ is not in in effect while using PURE DIRECT then read here:
 
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FrankV

Standard Member
I have been looking at the various modes on my RX-A3070 and found something different regarding 5.1 upmixing to 7.1. The upmixing occurs in Straight mode but not in Pure Direct, it reverts to 5.1.
1644246595507.png

I had to be quick with the camera for this one:
1644246621429.png


This is backed up by the sound disappearing out of the rears when PD is selected.

Firmware version is 2.87.

In my view it is a bug that it is upmixed in Straight mode because it is counter to what Straight mode is supposed to be according to the user guide.
 

FrankV

Standard Member
From the user manual:

1644248467641.png


It seems to be pretty clear that upmixing should not occur in Straight mode as the note says a surround decoder has to be selected to activate the back channels, which of course cancels Straight mode.
 

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dante01

Distinguished Member
All Yamaha models with 7 channels or more will upmix 5.1 sources and engage the back surrounds if back surrounds are included in the setup.

There's no exception to this and there's no way to negate this behaviour. It is implemented by Yamaha themselves and it isn't a fault with the AV receiver. ASl Yamaha and they will tell you that this behaviour is intentional.
 
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dante01

Distinguished Member
I have been looking at the various modes on my RX-A3070 and found something different regarding 5.1 upmixing to 7.1. The upmixing occurs in Straight mode but not in Pure Direct, it reverts to 5.1.
View attachment 1650202
I had to be quick with the camera for this one:
View attachment 1650203

This is backed up by the sound disappearing out of the rears when PD is selected.

Firmware version is 2.87.

In my view it is a bug that it is upmixed in Straight mode because it is counter to what Straight mode is supposed to be according to the user guide.


This is interesting given that it used to be the case that the receivers used to upmix the discrete 5.1 source to 7.1 even if set to PURE DIRECT. The AV receiver do not now appear to be doing this, but the upmixing is still apparent in STRAIGHT mode as you've indicated.


No, it isn't a bug. As I indicated, Yamaha simily state that this is intentional if asked.
 

FrankV

Standard Member
Not true as I have proven and you can see in shots of the display above. Mine definately does not upmix in Pure Direct. I have a 9.1.4 speaker setup with external amps for front mains.
If you are getting sound out of your rear surrounds in Pure Direct then this means you are receiving a 7.1 signal, not 5.1
Yamaha techs cannot be relied on, see this thread here where different Tier Yamaha support guys differed in their answers re PD being analog only: Yamaha's Pure Direct mode: It is analog per a...
 

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