XTZ Cinema Series speaker system - impressions by a Ken Kreisel Quattro owner

markymiles

Distinguished Member
Great review/impressions RickyDeg. I know you owned MA Apex before the KK's and gave a comparison a while back. Would it be fair to say that what you wrote about the improvement the KK gave would probably be similar for the XTZ's?

I shall try to hear some for myself of course at some point.
 

mikelj

Well-known Member
You can implement it in either digital or analogue domain. It has the same effect.

DSP when commonly used with reference to subs though, isn't generally just used to correct/control group delay, it's also used to shape the frequency response.

Whether digital processing of just group delay or the additional frequency response shaping is what KK feels screws with the time domain response I couldn't say.
 

mattkhan

Distinguished Member
DSP when commonly used with reference to subs though, isn't generally just used to correct/control group delay, it's also used to shape the frequency response.

Whether digital processing of just group delay or the additional frequency response shaping is what KK feels screws with the time domain response I couldn't say.
Yes you would need a linear phase filter to control phase alone but then it would an odd sealed sub that had a group delay problem. A loudspeaker, in itself, is a minimum phase device mind you so frequency response and time response are just two sides of the same coin. It would be interesting to read his take on it though, perhaps when he retires he'll become more talkative about the details :)
 

mikelj

Well-known Member
As you well know, he was quite ready to be talkative about his TriFX speakers, until he was informed that no discussion of his products on AVForums was allowed unless he became an assured advertiser :rolleyes:
 

lokyc

Well-known Member
Just reading about the discussion about subs and their speeds. Let's not forget they are active devices with their own amps. They also have large heavy drivers. yes it would be a challenge to start and stop these drivers, maintain impedence etc.

As for speakers, well just to throw my 2p, amplification also matter. the Primare 30.7 is a nice amp, but by no means the last word. The question is if the KKs have even more potential when used with good sources and amplification.

I do think there is sometimes an overemphasis on speakers and not enough on amplification. Good to knw the XTZ sounds good. And perhaps if one isn't going to spend £££ on amps and such, is good enough.
 

RickyDeg

Well-known Member
Great review/impressions RickyDeg. I know you owned MA Apex before the KK's and gave a comparison a while back. Would it be fair to say that what you wrote about the improvement the KK gave would probably be similar for the XTZ's?

I shall try to hear some for myself of course at some point.

Thank you Marky! Glad you stopped by! :)

It's hard to know how to answer and phrase that in a good way, but since the KK's were such a considerably more capable system, more than twise the price of the Apex system, the improvements in percieved performance matched the investment. I thought that everything I appreciated with the Apex were heightened and bettered by the Quattros. I loved the Apex speakers, they were very versatile and excellent quality, but for natural reasons they could not perform to the level of the Quattro's and weren't mean to either. I'd like to think that would go for the Cinema Series as well. There are so many differences between the Apex and Quattro/Cinema Series respectively. And there are a few differences between Quattro and Cinema Series as well, some of which I noted in my post. Definitely audition them when you get a chance to!
 

RickyDeg

Well-known Member
As for speakers, well just to throw my 2p, amplification also matter. the Primare 30.7 is a nice amp, but by no means the last word. The question is if the KKs have even more potential when used with good sources and amplification.

I do think there is sometimes an overemphasis on speakers and not enough on amplification. Good to knw the XTZ sounds good. And perhaps if one isn't going to spend £££ on amps and such, is good enough.

Amplification absolutely does matter. I hope no one have suggested anything different? As with most speakers, those who seem to thrive on power and current especially, I believe the Quattro's blossom with quality gear. So yes, I would say their potential is greater hooked up to amplification with less 'limitation'. I actually didn't start out with the Primare A30.7 but had the considerably more expensive and powerful NuForce MCH-300SEC7 initially. It gave a sound with a bit more 'bite' and 'attack' as it had more energy in the top part of the audio spectrum and also offered slightly deeper soundstage. But when I tried the Primare A30.7 (with the SP33 processor) I found it's 'character' appeal to me more on the whole. The Primare amp had less power on paper but in theory I don't think it made that much difference to my ears. There were other factors that instantly appealed to me as I demoed the pair at home. It's got a somewhat smoother presentation, a more musical drive with that "foot-tapping" sensation to the sound that I missed with the NuForce. Soundstage may not be quite as deep but it's wide and pleasingly threedimensional nonetheless. Would love to demo other sets of electronics with the Quattros though! No doubts I will!

So I would also say it's not all about power or current, it's just as much about the 'character' of the amp that has to appeal to you and everything else that has to form a nice synergy with the speakers to create a good cohesive experience. Including the preamp/dac/processor. That aspect is as vital IMO as the amp.

I don't know about there being an overemphasis on speakers, but I get what you're saying. I suppose it depends on who you ask. As far as I'm concerned it sort of wouldn't make sense to spend the kind of money one would on the KK Quattro system or even the XTZ Cinema Series only to hook em up to something cheap and inferior (let's say an entry-level integrated receiver) or something that doesn't present you with the 'character' you're looking for. Sometimes one may have to start off that way of course and upgrade over time. It's tricky achieving synergy in any audio system I believe, but if one is successful you likely have many hours of entertainment to look forward to.

That said, I will freely quote my own symmary from the personal review I did on the Quattro system posted elsewhere: "apart from the acoustics of the room no single aspect of our system have as much of an impact on the end-result as speakers. Electronics have their fair share but not to the same extent". That is something I have learned after 20 years, 9 speaker systems, and 15 different sets of electronics with about an additional 8 home demos of various electronics.
 

Member 116841

Distinguished Member
Just reading about the discussion about subs and their speeds. Let's not forget they are active devices with their own amps. They also have large heavy drivers. yes it would be a challenge to start and stop these drivers, maintain impedence etc.
And some have heavier drivers than others...

As for speakers, well just to throw my 2p, amplification also matter. the Primare 30.7 is a nice amp, but by no means the last word. The question is if the KKs have even more potential when used with good sources and amplification.

I do think there is sometimes an overemphasis on speakers and not enough on amplification.
I totally agree, and have always said so. While the efficiency of a speaker is something to consider, it has no bearing on the sort of amplification that needs to be considered. A 99dB efficient speaker might only need a 15wpc amp to gain sufficient levels, but that approach ignores quality. It doesn't matter how good your speakers are if the amplification isn't allowing them to perform at their peak. Hopefully I might get to hear mine with the Chord SPM2400 soon to see how much better they can get.
 

Lesmor

Distinguished Member
Amplification absolutely does matter. I hope no one have suggested anything different? As with most speakers, those who seem to thrive on power and current especially, I believe the Quattro's blossom with quality gear. So yes, I would say their potential is greater hooked up to amplification with less 'limitation'. I actually didn't start out with the Primare A30.7 but had the considerably more expensive and powerful NuForce MCH-300SEC7 initially. It gave a sound with a bit more 'bite' and 'attack' as it had more energy in the top part of the audio spectrum and also offered slightly deeper soundstage. But when I tried the Primare A30.7 (with the SP33 processor) I found it's 'character' appeal to me more on the whole. The Primare amp had less power on paper but in theory I don't think it made that much difference to my ears. There were other factors that instantly appealed to me as I demoed the pair at home. It's got a somewhat smoother presentation, a more musical drive with that "foot-tapping" sensation to the sound that I missed with the NuForce. Soundstage may not be quite as deep but it's wide and pleasingly threedimensional nonetheless. Would love to demo other sets of electronics with the Quattros though! No doubts I will!

So I would also say it's not all about power or current, it's just as much about the 'character' of the amp that has to appeal to you and everything else that has to form a nice synergy with the speakers to create a good cohesive experience. Including the preamp/dac/processor. That aspect is as vital IMO as the amp.

I don't know about there being an overemphasis on speakers, but I get what you're saying. I suppose it depends on who you ask. As far as I'm concerned it sort of wouldn't make sense to spend the kind of money one would on the KK Quattro system or even the XTZ Cinema Series only to hook em up to something cheap and inferior (let's say an entry-level integrated receiver) or something that doesn't present you with the 'character' you're looking for. Sometimes one may have to start off that way of course and upgrade over time. It's tricky achieving synergy in any audio system I believe, but if one is successful you likely have many hours of entertainment to look forward to.

That said, I will freely quote my own symmary from the personal review I did on the Quattro system posted elsewhere: "apart from the acoustics of the room no single aspect of our system have as much of an impact on the end-result as speakers. Electronics have their fair share but not to the same extent". That is something I have learned after 20 years, 9 speaker systems, and 15 different sets of electronics with about an additional 8 home demos of various electronics.
Ricky
You certainly have a rare gift of expressing your thoughts on all things AV
It is so refreshing to read an open opinion without it degrading to the gutter print that is often posted on AVF
Cheers
Andy
 

RickyDeg

Well-known Member
And some have heavier drivers than others...

I totally agree, and have always said so. While the efficiency of a speaker is something to consider, it has no bearing on the sort of amplification that needs to be considered. A 99dB efficient speaker might only need a 15wpc amp to gain sufficient levels, but that approach ignores quality. It doesn't matter how good your speakers are if the amplification isn't allowing them to perform at their peak. Hopefully I might get to hear mine with the Chord SPM2400 soon to see how much better they can get.

David, I for one can't wait to read your impressons of the Quattro systems performance hooked up to the high-quality beast that is the Chord SPM2400. Can we hastag in here? #Insane lol
 

RickyDeg

Well-known Member
Ricky
You certainly have a rare gift of expressing your thoughts on all things AV
It is so refreshing to read an open opinion without it degrading to the gutter print that is often posted on AVF
Cheers
Andy

Much too kind Andy! Always appreciate your feedback! I'm just glad I make sense! :censored: lol

Even though I'm in no particular rush to do so I honestly can't wait to demo other electronics than my current Primare pair. I love em for the qualities they've brought to my system but to test something different again with the Quattro's would not hurt. Except possibly the wallet of course, should I prefer em better. Might get expensive. I believe Ken himself may have mentioned ATI amps as a recommendation, just to name an example. Highly capable systems like the Quattro's and the Cinema System definitely deserve quality gear. But once again; it's all about trying to accomplish that synergy I mentioned earlier, and I'm sure you agree?
 

Lesmor

Distinguished Member
Much too kind Andy! Always appreciate your feedback! I'm just glad I make sense! :censored: lol

Even though I'm in no particular rush to do so I honestly can't wait to demo other electronics than my current Primare pair. I love em for the qualities they've brought to my system but to test something different again with the Quattro's would not hurt. Except possibly the wallet of course, should I prefer em better. Might get expensive. I believe Ken himself may have mentioned ATI amps as a recommendation, just to name an example. Highly capable systems like the Quattro's and the Cinema System definitely deserve quality gear. But once again; it's all about trying to accomplish that synergy I mentioned earlier, and I'm sure you agree?
Hi Ricky
Yes ATI are the amps recommended by Ken for the Quattros.
Going off thread for a moment I am quite excited to be getting the opportunity at the end of next week to attend an instore demo of the Trinnov Altitude 32 Cinema Processor.
It will also be the first time to hear Dolby Atmos ( Ok limited content of 1 film) their DSU and perhaps the Auro3D Auromatic Upmixer.
Cheers
Andy
 

RickyDeg

Well-known Member
Hi Ricky
Yes ATI are the amps recommended by Ken for the Quattros.
Going off thread for a moment I am quite excited to be getting the opportunity at the end of next week to attend an instore demo of the Trinnov Altitude 32 Cinema Processor.
It will also be the first time to hear Dolby Atmos ( Ok limited content of 1 film) their DSU and perhaps the Auro3D Auromatic Upmixer.
Cheers
Andy

VERY exciting, Andy! Trinnov gear certainly seem like heavy hitters! And a bit, shall we say exotic? I have yet to experience Atmos so looking forward to that myself too. Won't be a possible installation in my current home, but for the future who knows? I'm almost certain the demo will be fantastic! Will you be posting your impressions over at Speakershack? Haven't made time to visit there in much too long I'm afraid.
 

Lesmor

Distinguished Member
VERY exciting, Andy! Trinnov gear certainly seem like heavy hitters! And a bit, shall we say exotic? I have yet to experience Atmos so looking forward to that myself too. Won't be a possible installation in my current home, but for the future who knows? I'm almost certain the demo will be fantastic! Will you be posting your impressions over at Speakershack? Haven't made time to visit there in much too long I'm afraid.
Ricky that's a dangerous question that for obvious reasons I dare not answer.
If I could write an article as eloquently as your good self I would definitely give it a go, but at the risk of being ridiculed not on this forum.;)
 

RickyDeg

Well-known Member
Ricky that's a dangerous question that for obvious reasons I dare not answer.
If I could write an article as eloquently as your good self I would definitely give it a go, but at the risk of being ridiculed not on this forum.;)

HA! If not, at the very least I'll expect a PM after that demo then! :laugh:
 

RickyDeg

Well-known Member
^ Thanks for checking it out! :smashin:

I'm sure if you contact XTZ they'll help you, or in the dedicated Cinema Series thread? I can ask my friend for photos of the cabinet backsides but I doubt he'll bother now as his system is installed and in place.
 

Jag of the Bailey

Distinguished Member
I'm a bit late but Fantastic write up Mr Deg. There were some photos up of the XTZ series showing the speakers and subs rear panels. Can't remember if they were on here or another thread. But I can't find them now. If they weren't on here or purposefully removed do you think your friend would mind posting them up?

Hi, they're on the XTZ Cinema Series thread. Feel free to pm me if you'd like me to forward some pics to you. I won't derail this thread.
 

RickyDeg

Well-known Member
^ HAHA! Thanks! Seems fun! :thumbsup:
 

fayeanddavid

Distinguished Member
^ HAHA! Thanks! Seems fun! :thumbsup:
very late to this party but just to say;
RickyDegg was the reason I went to Apex speakers after reading his reviews on them, then lo and behold he moved up to the KK series!! :(
So I am very pleased of his critique, and I have now succumbed and bought the Cinema series (KK too rich for me), all your fault Ricky.
Be a few days yet til I get all up and running, but based on Ricky's previous recommendations on Apex I can't wait to get these babies up and running
Thanks
 

RickyDeg

Well-known Member
^ Hey you! :)

Thanks for posting! Late reply is always better than no reply!

Apex were/are truly great! I sometimes miss that system. Not specifically because it was just as good as the KK's but they looked really cool and I enjoyed the dynamic musical sound. I could have lived with them longer, and probably should have to tell you the truth, but the upgrade bug bit me pretty bad. Moving to the KK's was an upgrade on several levels.

Congratulations to your own purchase! I cannot imagine you being let down! If you are, then let me know! Let me know regardless! Especially since everything is my "fault" you need to lend feedback so I hopefully won't have to feel too guilty! lol

I see you have more than decent gear to drive them, as they (just like the KK's) adore power and quality in order to really sing. My friend who has the Cinema system have a separate Yamaha power amp and they go well together. Just remember to let them 'run in' plenty before critical listening!

Happy times! Good luck!
 

fayeanddavid

Distinguished Member
^ Hey you! :)

Thanks for posting! Late reply is always better than no reply!

Apex were/are truly great! I sometimes miss that system. Not specifically because it was just as good as the KK's but they looked really cool and I enjoyed the dynamic musical sound. I could have lived with them longer, and probably should have to tell you the truth, but the upgrade bug bit me pretty bad. Moving to the KK's was an upgrade on several levels.

Congratulations to your own purchase! I cannot imagine you being let down! If you are, then let me know! Let me know regardless! Especially since everything is my "fault" you need to lend feedback so I hopefully won't have to feel too guilty! lol

I see you have more than decent gear to drive them, as they (just like the KK's) adore power and quality in order to really sing. My friend who has the Cinema system have a separate Yamaha power amp and they go well together. Just remember to let them 'run in' plenty before critical listening!

Happy times! Good luck!
I had the Apex's quite close together as LR, maybe 2 metres, but moving the M6s to 3 and a bit metres apart.
Two reasons, not as attractive as the Apex (wife factor) so can be "hidden" a bit til there needed, and I can satisfy the wish that the pictures are reinstated.
Secondly I believe these M6s have wide room dispersion so the 3m should play to their strengths, we sit 3m away from screen also so should work well

Thanks
 

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