XTZ 12.17, bk P12-300SB-PR or XXLS400-DF

@Gasp3621 The XTZ does sound interesting :smashin:

Do you think that there is a possibility that some of the basics are being overlooked though? And the recommendations for a bigger and better sub (by that I mean more expensive, louder, deeper bass extension) are too knee jerk without looking at the bigger picture?

The OP is building a 12ft x 12ft cinema room where the main speakers are Bronze 5's powered by a Denon 2400. A single BK XLS 200 should match that system well and fill that room with bass to pretty insane levels. If the OP is saying that there is not enough bass, do you not think that something else is wrong? In terms of placement / settings?

If it were me, I would be looking at spending the money on a better AVR, maybe the Denon 3400 with the better version of Audyssey and the app that can be used to measure and configure the sub and generally deal with bass integration better. And if the OP wants a loud cinema, maybe add some power amps to the main speakers to overcome the limitations of the AVR when driving multiple channels.

Then.... if still not happy, a second sub, rather than a different sub, might be a better use of funds?

Just some thoughts, what do you think?
 
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You could always ask BK to try the 400PR that I had. As you are local I’m sure they won’t mind.....
 
I have just read through the OP's first few posts and I think I see what the problem is!

@tvguy you currently have a 26ft x 12ft space, but are building a false wall to make it 12ft x 12ft. I strongly recommend that you do that first, and then re-evaluate your subwoofer situation. That will make a lot of difference to how things sound.
 
@Gasp3621 The XTZ does sound interesting :smashin:

Do you think that there is a possibility that some of the basics are being overlooked though? And the recommendations for a bigger and better sub (by that I mean more expensive, louder, deeper bass extension) are too knee jerk without looking at the bigger picture?

The OP is building a 12ft x 12ft cinema room where the main speakers are Bronze 5's powered by a Denon 2400. A single BK XLS 200 should match that system well and fill that room with bass to pretty insane levels. If the OP is saying that there is not enough bass, do you not think that something else is wrong? In terms of placement / settings?

If it were me, I would be looking at spending the money on a better AVR, maybe the Denon 3400 with the better version of Audyssey and the app that can be used to measure and configure the sub and generally deal with bass integration better. And if the OP wants a loud cinema, maybe add some power amps to the main speakers to overcome the limitations of the AVR when driving multiple channels.

Then.... if still not happy, a second sub, rather than a different sub, might be a better use of funds?

Just some thoughts, what do you think?

What one feels is enough, is not the case for others. There is no rulebook which we should obey blindly. There must be good reason why members pay 1500£ - 3000£ for subwoofer(s) for their small space. When stepping up from living room system to "cinema room", you don´t see any tiny 300£ subs anymore. :) OP has floorstanding models front and back which won´t be problem with blending larger subs and there is no rules that you can´t choose expensive subwoofers with cheaper speakers. Yep XLS200 might go "loud" for some in small room, but it still doesn`t have the same visceral effect of more capable sub. It isn´t real HT sub, internal crossover passed (av use) it was measured +-3db 36-200hz, so it`s quite typical tiny sub suited for music or lighter movie use in small space. What i mean is if one watches action/scifi movies loud most of time which has lot of stuff happening around 20-36hz and higher aswell, there is not enough output to feel/hear it like with larger subwoofer (remember XTZ can play every note louder with more force, not only the driver moves energy, but also two ports pushes air which gives you extra feel) and the distortion starts to creep in with the small sub when pushing loud those low frequencies. For some it will be enough, but when you hear something meatier there is no going back, for most people that is! :) We all have different tastes and someone who calls himself as "bass head" likely wants even more than you & me. That´s why i would choose something beefier which might look odd for normal person, who might not have heard something like that before.

Better receiver would be ideal in many ways i agree as most likely one can get little more from the speakers and subwoofer sounding better aswell, there is enough reports to support this fact. Small room is likely even more problematic with low frequencies, so XT32 is good idea (XT still does something), but if one sticks with 5.1 system and doesn´t need new features etc., it´s hard pill to swallow swapping to expensive receiver.
I remember David from littleaudioshop said years ago MA Bronzes deserves 4000 serie (Denon) level receiver to sound best, he used to sell those so knows thing or two. @fallinlight had similar Bronze 5 system front and back full of towers, he used Yamaha 3060 i think. AVF review used A3040 with Bronze 5.1 review and loved it with movies, towers being another step up from B2s which was used. So i think there is good chances to make many things better with higher receiver model. What is funny actually you don´t see reviews done with budget (300£) receivers, they almost always use some high level flagship. :) And this is not the way people go in real world with the lower cost (~500£) speakers. Would be intresting to hear their thoughts when played thru both 300£ and 1,5£ receiver.

Two smaller sub vs. one better. While there are certain advantages with dual subwoofers when placed optimally and setup right example with XT32 (Sub EQ HT for duals), OP can´t place those two subs optimally there and neither he doesn´t have XT32. And going with dual XLS200 they won`t dig any deeper, you get the usual benefits of dual subs plus added dynamic headroom. If the idea is to have something truly cinematic, i don´t think adding extra XLS200 does the job. Quite similar story with one member as he got dual Bronze W10 (10" +10" passive driver per one) subs, he wanted more cinematic feel to he`s living room. I said to look for Monolith and when he got it, he was blown away and was puzzled why he didn´t make the change earlier. The XTZ would be very similar to Mono and outperforforming it some areas, so yeah my money would go to one better sub and later when wife is bribed with jewelry, then adding second. :p

Yep for nearly 30sqm room XLS200 is likely "little" lifeless, i have tried that with Gemini2.:laugh: :suicide:Moving to 13sqm room will make difference surely and it will be more at home as the sub is designed for smaller spaces. He can wait and try that for sure. But it doesn´t change the fact if he wants some serious performance he would be looking something more capable designed for HT use.

CableGuy has dual 12.17 in a ~15sqm room and he was blown away when Jag brought those to him (first page story). He upgraded from dual 10" sealed subs. ;) Here is pictures of the gorgeous room which got to front page of AVF some years ago;
My DIY home cinema (where the car used to live)
 
Hi @Gasp3621 good debate, that was an interesting read :smashin:

I am not entirely in agreement with all of your thoughts, but certainly the majority of them.

My point is that the OP said that he found the bass lacking, and thought he might get a bigger / better / louder / sub, and the advice given immediately was which bigger / better / louder sub he should get next.

That may well be the way to go, but a lot of assumptions were made.

It might be that he is not getting the best out of his existing sub because of the room / placement / settings etc. I know he has limited options of placement, but even pointing it in a different direction, or putting it on a plinth of some sort could change things. As could adjusting phase settings, crossovers, Audyssey tweaks etc..

Although when performing at their best, or in an anechoic chamber, the bigger / better / louder subs would outperform the little BK XLS200, absolutely, no question. But, in a room where there are bass issues, those subs may sound very very similar and not fix the actual problem that the OP is complaining about.

I was attempting to save him from throwing money at a problem that might be fixed by tackling it from a different angle. Or at least explore those angles first before spending several £££'s on a new sub that may well sound very similar to his current sub, if it is indeed something else that is causing the disappointment.
 
Hey.

Yes i`m all about making sure everything is setup right and of course best bang for buck is something i think about many times. I think AVF review of 12.17 mentioned something similar. :) While ago i went longer pm with one member who got some more expensive older 12" sealed sub but didn´t felt it was enough. Was setup wrong and after we got it right, it sounded much better even in that fixed position. Of course i knew the subwoofer had more potential (XLS200 really doesn´t for "basshead" guy) and had a hunch there was something wrong, but it was little different to normal ones without knobs. Another likely jump could have been made changing the location of sub, but this wasn´t possible. Anyway money saved for the moment.

I said in the first page that placement is very important (i wouldn´t even talk about it with gf/wife but understand some men have harder life at home :laugh: ) and i can only assume one also put`s some effort to setup their stuff right. BK manual and Denon manual says clearly how sub should be set before running Audussey and there is zillion threads on AVF and other boards how to setup each sub right, google is friend aswell. I think Audussey with Denon shows you on-screen when the level is in the ball park and it´s easy and fast to tweak it afterwards.. Audussey deals with phase, better let that knob alone. BK subs come with spikes which is good idea to use either bare or with coins/floor protectors.

It sounds like he has the sub quite near to listener which should be one of the ideal placements for small sub, but it`s still going to sound like lost puppy in 29sqm room trying to fill that up. Having the sub nearfield close to listener should mean the energy reaches listener first before acting with room, if the sub is close enough. Using 80hz crossovers which he can easily with Bronze system, locating the sub shouldn´t be issue as bass should be omni-directional under 80hz. Either side of couch or behind the couch (listener). Corner placement is probably one of the most recommended, far from opening. Getting the max performance (output) via boundary gain helps many subs to perform better and less likely encounter nulls, but sounds like speakers are taking the space at corners. There is no trick in the world for small 10" sealed sub in 29sqm room, it`s not going to do much there.

XTZ would need to sit in some serious cancellation dead zone (middle of room) to not sound any better than XLS200. We are talking two completely different type of subwoofers. It´s like comparing 50cc scooter and 600cc street bike.:laugh: Member @sanjualf had the more expensive (820£) sealed (12" 500w/1100w) SVS sub (after BK XXLS400) and even SVS couldn´t give the same feel vs. XTZ 12.17. As i said one need to listen it (or similar competitor) to get better picture. I would say i have good idea cause i have owned Gemini2 (same size cab/driver) in three dif size rooms plus heard similar level vented sub as XTZ in small room. In this case with Antimode and all i can say is lot of people fear too much larger subs and that way misses some nice things... But yeah life is full of choices.

If it´s hard to make decision, make the wall first and try XLS200 there. Of course it will sound better in small sealed space, but if i understand right what you are after i have my doubts. Then you can probably get the P12-300SB-PR or Suche´s 400-PR as you live near BK Elec and can visit there, i think you can make a deal with them to test at home and return if not happy. They also let you listen there from what i have heard, but it won´t be same as in home. Plus you can call XTZ guys and ask about the return costs if you order one (10 or 12.17) with 30 buy & try. This way you could try each subs at home and keep the one you like most. Best scenario i would say.. To my knowledge Suche didn´t pay for BK to get the sub for home demo. For XTZ you need to pay to get one home, but 30days time to test.



Hi @Gasp3621 good debate, that was an interesting read :smashin:

I am not entirely in agreement with all of your thoughts, but certainly the majority of them.

My point is that the OP said that he found the bass lacking, and thought he might get a bigger / better / louder / sub, and the advice given immediately was which bigger / better / louder sub he should get next.

That may well be the way to go, but a lot of assumptions were made.

It might be that he is not getting the best out of his existing sub because of the room / placement / settings etc. I know he has limited options of placement, but even pointing it in a different direction, or putting it on a plinth of some sort could change things. As could adjusting phase settings, crossovers, Audyssey tweaks etc..

Although when performing at their best, or in an anechoic chamber, the bigger / better / louder subs would outperform the little BK XLS200, absolutely, no question. But, in a room where there are bass issues, those subs may sound very very similar and not fix the actual problem that the OP is complaining about.

I was attempting to save him from throwing money at a problem that might be fixed by tackling it from a different angle. Or at least explore those angles first before spending several £££'s on a new sub that may well sound very similar to his current sub, if it is indeed something else that is causing the disappointment.
 
are the xtz sealy twice as good

I owned dual XXLS400 before my single 1x12 and I would say, about twice as good, for me. And I only have a single 1x12. It's a King of a subwoofer. My room is approximately 4.5 x 5 m. And I would say I have only tapped about 60% of the 1x12's potential - I am so pleased with it, I have not touched it - apart from some minor a/ b'ing with the bung - since I initially set it and YPAO did its thing.

@fallinlight had similar Bronze 5 system front and back full of towers, he used Yamaha 3060 i think.

Yes, @Gasp3621, I have had similar gear mentioned throughout this thread. I had Bronze 5 towers fronts, sides and rears + Bronze 5 Centre all the way around in a 7.2.4, later with dual XXLS400. I had a Yamaha RXV381, then 383, then a SONY DN1080, then X4400H (completed my system at around this time), and finally the motherhumper (Tremors) that is my beloved A3070.

if he wants some serious performance he would be looking something more capable designed for HT use.

@tvguy, your room is massive, 12ft x 12ft? I think dual BK XXLS400s would suffice, but the 1x12 wins out in everything. I think you would be doing your home cinema justice with just 1x 1x12, yet alone two. I can't comment on the technical aspects, that is @Gasp3621's expertise! But the BKs had enough bass, even one did. But the 1x12 digs deeper, and shares the maturity plus panache of my XTZ M6s. It is considerably more confident, clear and detailed. Smoother at trouble areas, too. I find it excels as much for music as film.
 
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your room is massive, 12ft x 12ft

"My Room size is currently about 12 foot by 26 foot, as a through lounge, but I want to build a false wall so it becomes a self contained cinema room at about 12 foot by 12 foot."

12feet x 12feet google says = 3,65 x 3,65meters. :) Slightly smaller than yours then.. But from the words by tvguys one could imagine anything small or normal wouldn´t cut it. :laugh: And there is nothing wrong in that. Different people have different tastes. Some can´t stand any extra bass and keep the sub almost silent and some want to shake the room like it´s doomsday! :devil:
 
Folks I just wanted to reiterate my thanks to everyone of you for all your comments I've had fun reading through this after a hard day at work. It's true I am a bass head I guess it goes back to my youth and my 12 inch sub I used to have in my car.

The 200 is an admirable worker but for me, the wife would disagree, I simply cannot feel it enough. I also do listen loud not far off reference point and the bronzes do well but it's missing the "feels " that video of the door shaking got me drooling lol.
I did ring Tom and he offered to let me test the 400pr after I had read of its existence But Tom doubted it was any better than the 300pr and did not feel it warranted the extra cash

I could wait till after the false Wall is built but that's gonna be over a year before it happens. Its all part of a house extension project. And God forbid anyone tells the wife it's gonna be a cinema room. She still thinks it's gonna be our sanctuary:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
 
Folks I just wanted to reiterate my thanks to everyone of you for all your comments I've had fun reading through this after a hard day at work. It's true I am a bass head I guess it goes back to my youth and my 12 inch sub I used to have in my car.

The 200 is an admirable worker but for me, the wife would disagree, I simply cannot feel it enough. I also do listen loud not far off reference point and the bronzes do well but it's missing the "feels " that video of the door shaking got me drooling lol.
I did ring Tom and he offered to let me test the 400pr after I had read of its existence But Tom doubted it was any better than the 300pr and did not feel it warranted the extra cash

I could wait till after the false Wall is built but that's gonna be over a year before it happens. Its all part of a house extension project. And God forbid anyone tells the wife it's gonna be a cinema room. She still thinks it's gonna be our sanctuary:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

One year in 29sqm room with tiny sub, jeez you will go crazy..:suicide: Time to put 12.17 order in after wife has choose colour! I don´t think you will be happy with anything "lesser" in that space as you crank so loud, that is large space to fill out even for one XTZ. If wife doesn´t agree to Monolith FF (430£) you don´t really have much choices with tight budget and keeping the size low and hoping to get serious performance.

Here is little comparison of BK subwoofer sizes. XLS200/Gemini looks so tiny. There is reason why the beers are placed near Monolith! :cool:

full.jpg
 
One year in 29sqm room with tiny sub, jeez you will go crazy..:suicide: Time to put 12.17 order in after wife has choose colour! I don´t think you will be happy with anything "lesser" in that space as you crank so loud, that is large space to fill out even for one XTZ. If wife doesn´t agree to Monolith FF (430£) you don´t really have much choices with tight budget and keeping the size low and hoping to get serious performance.

Here is little comparison of BK subwoofer sizes. XLS200/Gemini looks so tiny. There is reason why the beers are placed near Monolith! :cool:

full.jpg
This is what we need..wonderful comparission photo :)

If there were a hole on Monolith +, I'd think that it's a black washing mashine :)))
 
"My Room size is currently about 12 foot by 26 foot, as a through lounge, but I want to build a false wall so it becomes a self contained cinema room at about 12 foot by 12 foot."

12feet x 12feet google says = 3,65 x 3,65meters. :) Slightly smaller than yours then..

Woops, sorry, my brain doesn't usually do feet. I'd still go 1x12 or 12.17, if budget affords.
 
I've also been considering the mentioned subs, was wondering how the 10.17 would also fair against them?

I have a 50/50 split with movies and music, room is 4m x 5m, Arcam SR250 with Dali Rubicon LCR's.

Cheers.
 
I have just read through the OP's first few posts and I think I see what the problem is!

@tvguy you currently have a 26ft x 12ft space, but are building a false wall to make it 12ft x 12ft. I strongly recommend that you do that first, and then re-evaluate your subwoofer situation. That will make a lot of difference to how things sound.

I would wait and it probably would make a difference but I need to wait probably till the end of next year before the building works are completed.

I am going to now start the search for a grade b or second hand 12.17. if I cant find one will try for brand new but need to sell my 200 first and save some cash to go brand new.
 
Hi

If it helps, I got two XXLS400DFs from the BK ebay store (Colossus XB I think?) in nearly new condition - they were basically immaculate and sound fabulous to me. But I haven’t heard the XTZ to be fair.

I got one first and it was a huge leap up from the Gemini II I had (and later a larger 10” sub). Got the second to have both across the front soundstage.
 
I am going to now start the search for a grade b or second hand 12.17. if I cant find one will try for brand new but need to sell my 200 first and save some cash to go brand new.

Not likely grade-b`s for XTZ, though you can always ask.. One option is to put wanted add on classifieds for the 12.17 or/and 1x12 Cinema models when you have money in hand. Or you could contact Hifi Pilot and ask do they offer any finance options. New is always new with full warranty.

Probably the fastest place to sell XLS200; Speaker, Subwoofer & Soundbar Classifieds
 
Thought I might wager in on this one, love sub talk, I used to have a BKXLS200 in my 16x8 cinema room and thought it was quite good, pictured below is what I have now, Dual 17hz ported 18s and an Inuke 6000dsp, capable of 124db at 17hz in room, all for around £1000. My advice is to get a pair of the biggest baddest subs you can physically fit in and get away with, all the talk of overkill is nonsense, I don't believe such a thing exists when it comes to speakers, better a large speaker turned down than a small one turned up! If you want some serious bass I would suggest you stop playing around with 12" and below subs, and either consider some DIY or some of the offerings from SVS, Rthymic, PSA, JTR etc! Having said all that I suppose it really depends on your listening levels, for TV shows/general listening I like it at chill volumes, for big films I crank it hard (reference 120db levels), it's always good to have some left in the tank, the more headroom the better imo. Good luck!
 

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Also in terms of placement the subwoofer crawl is a good ghetto method for finding a good spot, however a more accurate practice would be to buy a UMIK1 (£80) and get to grips with REW which produces in room frequency sweep of your system and will identify your likely bass problems, another sub placed as far from the other one as possible will likely help uneven bass, however if you are only bothered about good bass at your seating position, dual subs is likely a non issue, unless your response is really bad!
 
Have you considered the SVS PC-2000? I bought one recently and it's a cracking sub. Plenty of guts and can reach pretty low down (around 16Hz). The footprint isn't too big either. Depends if you like the cylindrical cabinet, but it does double up as a nice table lamp or vase stand :)
 
Some people go with rule books and some people just enjoy life with lot´s off tactile bass with a sh*tty grin on their faces, something that they would never be able to experience at large cinema. Papalocks says there is no limits to madness, Rambles what would you say about little upgrade.. :D



So I'm a US-based audio nut and I was just browsing this forum, seeing what your community is like. While scanning through this thread I noticed a picture of something familiar to me, a 'line array' subwoofer. Then I read the post and sure enough, it's popalocks system. I have actually been to Austins house and heard his HT at full blast. The best word I can use to describe the experience is "punishing". His room is actually quite small, maybe 15 feet wide by 8 feet deep. The sound pressure is so great that the doors pulsate like in a horror movie! I think he registers seismic activity... :smashin:
 
Thanks to all those who offered advice and opinions. I thought I would come back with an update.

After all the help here I decided to move away from my BK and go for the XTZ 12.17, well at least that was my plan. I rang Jag at Epic, who I found through this site, to buy one. He basically advised me to stay away from them due to their failure rate. He did proffer the 10.17 but reading the advice often given here that I would later regret going small I decided to decline and look back at the 12.17. However, again he really did warn that I would probably have to expect it to fail and advised I should go with BK for their reliability.

Back to Tom at BK then and he advised as I wanted it for movies to go with the P12-300SB-PR. A lovely guy and I know it sounds silly but I quite liked the idea of continuing to support the local supplier. So the 300- PR it is. Plus Tom sorted me out with a grade B which is immaculate.

It turned up on Wednesday and I have been playing with it since. It definitely goes lower, louder and offers more Oomph than the 200 but has also, in a funny way, made me appreciate the 200 even more. For the size and cost that little baby really does do well and would be more than enough for probably 99% of the worlds population.

So far the house is shaking far more and the windows nearly fell out last night when I was running a bass frequency test video I found on youtube. Another side effect of that frequency test was it made my sub start to crawl across the floor!!!

Not sure how I can remedy that but I spoke to BK about it and they are going to get Tom to ring me with some advice. Hopefully I don't have to stick a massive weight on it to keep it in place, or heaven forbid turn it down!:rotfl::rotfl:

Again folks thanks one and all for your advice, its been much appreciated.
 
I am glad you are happy with 300 BR. Being on my 7th subwoofer you always appreciate your previous sub for what it did for the money. You always don’t get the upgrade you expect for the extra cost you pay for the sub upgrade.
You may want to look into some subwoofer feet to see if it stops the crawling like svs sound isolation feet. Or try out a granite slab under the sub. Is your floor carpet or wood?
Strange advice from Jag. As you may not know jag and xtz parted ways in the last few months and xtz has a new distributor in uk. Certainly I have no issues with my 12.17 over the last one year I have owned. Also looking at forums there is no chatter on any failure any more than other brands. From a previous owner of BK400 the 12.17 is certainly a big upgrade for movies. All it mattters is that you are happy with your purchase. Experiment with positioning and AV eq to get the best out of it
Sanjay
 
Good stuff @tvguy
It could also be the Passive radiator losing composure in the P12-300SB-PR, causing the sub to jump around, but I am sure Tom can advise you.
I am not sure what Jag is referring to, but I have had my 12.17's for a couple of years without issues and performing fabulously and it is the same amp in the 10.17.:rolleyes:

The BK-XLS200 is a great little sub, but the 12.17 is in a different league.
 
This is a really interesting thread. I'm in a similar position to @tvguy. I'm planning on buying the XTZ Spirit speakers soon in a 5.0 (Spirit 6 & Spirit 2), and complementing them a non XTZ sub.

Similarly to tvguy, I had been advised against buying the XTZ subs due to their supposed reliability issues.

But one question I wanted to ask was, are the XTZs worth it? The BK XXLS400 can be had for £400 incl delivery with as auto-on. The equivalent XTZ (price-wise) is the 10.17 at £480 or the Spirit 12 at £440. Will either of these match up to the XXLS400? The 12.17 is £180 more than the XXLS400.

As alternatives I'd looked at the SVS SB2000 which is £799 new, or around £600 on classifieds. Is there anything that can match the XXLS400 within the £350-450 price range?
 

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