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Xcard Vs Zoomplayer - Compared

Discussion in 'Desktop & Laptop Computers Forum' started by drummerjohn, Jan 12, 2004.

  1. drummerjohn

    drummerjohn
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    Having seen on forums that the Xcard can output 720p and 1080i I thought I would compare the output of the Xcard with my (12 months of tweaking) setup of Zoomplayer.

    Test kit used:
    Sony 10HT projector
    Sony STR-DB930 (AV Receiver)
    1st HTPC: Abit BH7, Celeron 2Ghz, 512mb RAM, Radeon 9200 128mb, Maudio Revolution 7.1, Zoomplayer (Sonic video filter, NVDVD audio filter, Reclock, AnyDVD)
    2nd HTPC: Abit BH7, Pentium 4 1.8Ghz, 512mb RAM, Radeon 9500pro, Sigma Xcard (AnyDVD).

    DVDs used:
    Monsters Inc. R1 (Used for Picture)
    Monsters Inc. R2 (Used for Picture)
    Terminator 3. R2 (Used for Picture)
    Talking Heads – Stop Making Sense. R1 (Used for sound/dark scene detail)
    Lion King. R2 (Used for Picture)
    Saving Private Ryan. R1 (Used for sound detail)
    Matrix Reloaded. R2 (Used for general watchability)
    Fight Club . R2 (Used for dark scene detail and panning)

    The following resolutions were output from the Xcards component and VGA outputs:

    1280x720p 50Hz & 60Hz
    1920x1080i 50hz & 60Hz
    1184x666p 50hz & 60Hz (computer resolution that the 10HT accepts as 16:9)

    I will start by saying that I love the picture quality of my current setup (1st HTPC). But this took a long time to perfect.
    I think it important to note that the Xcard took minutes to install and a few more minutes adding resolutions/refresh rates to the registry to enable the Xcard to output the above resolutions.

    So, what did I see……

    The Xcard output (albeit component or VGA @ 720p or 1080i) suffered from jaggies on movement of fine detail ie fur of Sulley in Monsters Inc. You had to look hard but it was there. Colour was good as was black levels and detail in black levels. In fact I was pleasantly surprised at how good the overall picture was. Watching Terminator 3 showed that film stock was more forgiving and the picture was excellent. The Xcard suffered from around 8% overscan. This can be adjusted using the remote while a DVD is playing but loses the settings when the Xcard software is restarted. I have requested a solution to this on the Sigma forum (if there is a solution). The layer change was noticeable – slight pause. Playback at 50hz for PAL material revealed absolutely no stutter. Playback at 59.94Hz & 60hz revealed the micro-stutter associated with NTSC material that I am used to, no worse than my Zoomplayer setup. Sound was LFE heavy (much more so than any other player (software or hardware) I had ever used, so adjustments had to be made on my receiver. The sound was on the “warmer/relaxed” side but still kept detail and directionality intact.

    The Sony 10HT does not allow 1:1 pixel mapping. My colleague has a Panasonic PTAE100 projector and I am sure he will test the Xcard with this at 1:1 pixel mapping. I will update when this has been done.

    Further testing will include the use of Dscaler and Zoomplayer with this card.

    Conclusion then…

    If we can sort the over-scan issue out on the Xcard then I can see myself sticking with Xcard.

    It is so easy to install and setup. I have AnyDVD that on detection of an NTSC or PAL disc launches the appropriate script that modifies the registry of the Xcard and then launches the Xmedia player.

    Example:
    PAL disk is inserted
    Anydvd detects 50hz PAL disk and launches a script file called PAL.bat.
    PAL.bat runs a PAL.ini file that writes the preferred display method (1920x1080i 50hz) to the registry of Xmedia player.
    PAL.bat then launches Xmedia player.
     
  2. David PluggedIn

    David PluggedIn
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    Hi DrummerJohn

    Great post!

    To clarify for anyone who has been reading about Xcard in conjunction with SweetSpot, then we have a detailed faq that explains how these two products work together at SweetSpot FAQ

    In the meantime, us just clarify what DrummerJohn has tested in this setup. He is using the Xcard in standalone mode, and using the built in VGA output of the Xcard to drive the display device. Xcard has VGA,Component,RGB,Svideo and composite OUTPUTS as standard (of course these outputs are ANALOGUE)

    It also has PDI, parallel digital interface, which is a DIGITAL output feed (as you would expect!).

    Xcard is therefore a multi format source device, able to take various media files, DVD, Divx etc etc, and output them accordingly.

    SweetSpot is a multi format CAPTURE device, it has all of the formats listed above, but as INPUTS which are then fed in to DScaler.

    So, the point that I wanted to make (and apologies for kind of hijacking this thread, but given the amount of interest in SweetSpot/Xcard it seems likely that there might be some confusion), is that the observations that DrummerJohn has made here are of Xcard in its native, analogue output mode (no Dscaler or Radeon involved)

    When used with SweetSpot, the data is transferred from Xcard via the digital PDI cable, and DScaler operates on a digital data stream without any analogue->digital conversion having taken place. DScaler then provides the de-interlacing, and the Radeon provides the image scaling to the desired resolution and refresh rate.

    again - not trying to pull the thread OT just wanting to make sure there is no confusion.

    regards
     
  3. drummerjohn

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    Quite right David - this is the Xcard by itself, the video signal from your standard VGA card does not touch the Xcard. This is for DVD playback only and not capturing/scaling/deinterlacing.

    My next comparison will be using the Dscaler/PDI/Xcard combination.

    But, what I was trying to get away from was complexities - like my Zoomplayer setup. The more you add the more there is to go wrong. So, for the simplest form of good quality DVD playback on a PC giving HD output the Xcard in my opinion is as simple as it gets. Not the best in picture quality just the quickest/easiest.
     
  4. Totalnoobee

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    Drummerjohn,
    Could you please tell me the values for the component output parameters (under the HDTV section of the registry, NOT the progressive for VGA output) for 720p@50Hz? would you know by chance those for 720p@59.94Hz?
    My TV takes 480p, 576p and 1080i@50/60Hz but refuses to play 720p@60Hz and I would like to see if it can take those two or it simply stops at 33.716 and I must forget displaying anything over that.
    Thx
     
  5. David PluggedIn

    David PluggedIn
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    Agreed DrummerJohn, it shows what the Xcard is capable of!

    Can you drop me a line at david@pluggedin.tv

    regards
     
  6. alexs2

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    Very interesting comments re the XCard and your projector,and those of David from Pluggedintv.....my HCPC also has an Xcard,used to drive the RPTV I have via it's component inputs,and the quality there is excellent,with no jaggies or motion artefacts at all,but maybe this is an issue related to unscaled VGA output being used to drive a PJ directly?
     
  7. drummerjohn

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    The "jaggies" can be seen using the component output or VGA output. This isn't a scaling issue but a deinterlacing issue.

    This is where the Sweetspot card may come into its own as I believe the de-interlacing is done in software. Got some work to do on that.

    Totalnoobee - I will post the settings as soon as I get a chance to fire up the HTPC, tonight no doubt.
     
  8. David PluggedIn

    David PluggedIn
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    correct! , with the key factor being that the MPEG decoding has been done on the Xcard hardware, and the digital data is then passed to DScaler for de-interlacing as a digital stream via the PDI ribbon cable in to SweetSpot.

    This is different than the typical Dscaler configuration, where a capture card first has to go through an analogue->digital conversion of the picture so that DScaler can work with it (it is this analogue->digital conversion process that differentiates the various capture cards on the market, of course the more accurate and noise free this process the better)

    The other nice features of Xcard are that it comes with a remote control as standard (infrared, with an infra red -> serial receiver), and also that it had all of the video outputs mentioned, and digital audio out. You can also download alternative media players for the card if you prefer them to the media player software provided by Realmagic.

    It is therefore possible to make quite a nice media player on a low spec PC (meaning compact, low power consumption) as this single card can be used instead of a Radeon video card and multi channel audio sound card.

    cheers
     
  9. drummerjohn

    drummerjohn
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    The Xcard settings as requested.

    720p/60hz 1280 720 6000 45000 1650 110 40 220 750 5 5 20

    1080i/60hz 1920 1080 6000 33750 2199 87 44 148 1125 5 10 30

    1080i/50hz 1920 1080 5000 28130 2199 87 44 148 1125 5 10 28

    720p/50hz 1280 720 5000 37500 1650 110 40 220 750 5 5 20
     
  10. Totalnoobee

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    drummerjohn,
    thx for the answer, but I was asking for the 720p/59.94Hz also.
    I know the 2 values between arrows have to be changed but I don't know if I have to change the vale of any other parameter.

    720p/59.94Hz 1280 720 ->5994<- ->44955<- 1650 110 40 220 750 5 5 20

    Also in the 720/50Hz string a value seems to missing, as the 720P/60Hz is ...... 750 5 5 20 and the 720/50Hz is ...... 750 5 20, is this OK?
     
  11. drummerjohn

    drummerjohn
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    Sorry - quite right. Edited string... missed out a 5.

    The difference between 59.94 and 60 should nto make any difference. I did try the 720p/60hz setting at 5994/45000 and my projector came up with 720/60 and I noticed no difference.
     
  12. Totalnoobee

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    But should I change any other parameter or just 6000 for 5994 and 45000 for 44955?
    720p/60Hz doesn't work with my TV.
     
  13. drummerjohn

    drummerjohn
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    Does your TV state it will accept 720?

    Just change the 6000 to 5994 and try it.
     
  14. Scotty

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    X-Card Vs Zoomplayer - Compared (update)

    Ok time to follow up on DrummerJohn’s original post,

    Test kit
    Panasonic PTAE100 projector
    Yamaha DSPA2 (AV-Amp)
    1st HTPC: Aopen MX4GER, P4 2.66Ghz, 512mb RAM, Radeon 9000, Zoomplayer with Sonic video filter, NVDVD audio filter, Reclock, AnyDVD.
    2nd HTPC: Abit BH7, Pentium 4 1.8Ghz, 512mb RAM, Radeon 9500pro,PMS videos PDI capture card Sigma X-card and AnyDVD.

    Objectives of the test for me were
    Reliable DVD playback
    Good picture quality
    Must be Scalable to multiple resolutions to match projector
    Easy to install and maintain
    Sound output I leave to DrummerJohn’s original post he has a more critical ear when it comes to sound

    Now before I begin I’m not unhappy with my current HTPC using zoom player, in fact both DrummerJohn and I have seen a system costing more than 30k and in our opinion both our systems give a better output, but to achieve this has taken more than 12 months of trawling the forums, constant testing of software and tweaking.
    We both decided there must be an easier way, hence these posts.

    The alternatives
    Software - Zoomplayer front end sonic for video, NvDVD for audio, Girder for remote control powerstrip for non standard screen resolutions
    Hardware - Sigma's X-Card, hardware decoding of video and audio, a remote control is also included and once macrovision is disabled, we used Anydvd, you can setup non standard screen resolutions for 1:1 pixel mapping.

    DVDs used:
    Now unlike John my whole collection is Region one so, I used Monsters Inc and Finding Nemo. (Mainly for colour and picture detail.) I would of liked to try more but after 5 hours and time approaching 2.00am its time for some sleep.

    The following resolutions were compared for output from both the X-cards component and VGA. and the HTPC's VGA

    856x480p 60hz (1:1 pixel mapping for PTAE 100)
    1280x720p 60Hz

    So, what did I see……
    Well let me say first that I too was surprised at how good the Xcard performed right out of the box with good easy to use software and remote control.
    I compared the HTPC with the x-card and IMO I thought that the software had the better colour and a sharper more detailed picture. The x-cards output was on the soft side, very similar to my Pioneer 737, an acceptable picture just not as sharp or colourful.
    The scaling of the x-card was as good as the HTPC, in fact I began to enjoy the picture more from the 720p setting than the 1:1 mapping, it just looked more film like.
    Film playback on the x-card appeared more fluid that the HTPC, not that either had judder it just appeared to be smoother.
    Unlike DrummerJohn I didn’t see any jaggies from the Xcard output from either component or VGA @ 720p or 480p, John will be to retesting this.

    Next playback through the PDI card
    Both the x-card and HTPC2 set 856x480 (1:1 mapping)
    I set the system up so that the projector was fed VGA from the ATI card looped through the x-card this enabled me to switch between the VGA output of the ATI card (D-Scaler and the PDI card) and the VGA output of the X-Card at the touch of a button on the remote.
    Well I was impressed with the PDI picture, sharper more detailed, almost as good as my Zoomplayer setup. In fact there was very little in it, but again I thought that the x-card alone had a more fluid picture. Now, this could be down to the relatively slow processor we have in our test kit and only further testing will tell.

    Conclusion then…
    Picture quality - HTPC was first with the PDI a close second, x-card possibly too soft for me but no worse than my standalone pioneer 737.
    Must be Scalable to multiple resolutions to match projectors requirements - x-card first for ease both other solutions require powerstrip and a good graphics card
    Installation and maintenance - X-Card is first as it is very easy to install and setup, PDI came second as the D-Scaler settings can be a bit off putting, software came last but this has the advantage of flexibility.
    Reliable DVD playback - only time will tell… more testing required.


    What would I choose? Software I think but then again maybe PDI, I could always wait and see if Sigma ever produces an x-card v2 (with DVI I hope)!
     
  15. sneaky

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    Hi guys,

    I thought the XCard was limited to 480i, 576i and 480p for DVD Playback.
     
  16. drummerjohn

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    only with copy protected dvds/files. However, use a program like AnyDVD to disable copy protection and the worlds your oyster.
     
  17. Bob Todd

    Bob Todd
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    nope:D

    only on on encrypted media ala bought DVD's
     
  18. KraGorn

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    Um, what currently available DVDs playable on DVD players, ie. not WMV format, are other than NTSC or PAL meaning 480 or 576 anyway? :confused:
     
  19. drummerjohn

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    Kragorn -

    One of the reasons we use a HTPC is due to the scaling the VGA card can do ie turn 480 line into 768 lines. Obviously to do this you can use many different software players to decode the material and pass it through the VGA card.

    The XCard is an all in one solution - it will decode and scale.
     
  20. Scotty

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    The x-card has a built in scaler and once macrovision (copy protection) is disabled ;), with a lets say Anydvd, you can output any dvd PAL or NTSC to any screen resolution
    480p
    576p
    720p
    1080i
    in either 60hz or 50hz,

    Ian
     
  21. KraGorn

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    Um, okay, my only experience was using an X-Card feeding a Sweetspot and thence via D-Scaler to my DVI output, I was therefore not considering the X-Card as a scaler, simply a DVD decoder.
     
  22. Scotty

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    The PDI interface on the x-card only outputs 480i, then D-Scaler de-interlaces it and your video card scales it.
    The chipset on the x-card is from what I remember the same chipset in the Brainwave 880 and the Bravo 880, its just a shame that the analogue out of the x-card is just a tad soft, were as the Bravo etc has DVI digital out and much better picture from what I have read.

    ian
     
  23. KraGorn

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    Yes, I noticed when I opened up my V880 that it had the same chip .. so if the X-Card had a DVI then it'd be as good as these cheap DVD players? That is a great pity then.
     
  24. sneaky

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    Drummerjohn,

    I want to output from the VGA port on the XCard and to be quite honest the quality I am getting at the monent is rubbish through the projector.

    Do you have setting for the progressive section in the registry (are they same as the HDTV? you gave earlier). Will it actaully make a difference?

    I am a little bit confused by this resolution business. I always thought that if you had a feed of 480i you should not actually actually be able to improve it, because nothing should be better then the source surely. But by what I am hearing on the forums you can - is that right. If so how does it do it.

    Als the XCard literature says you cannot output anything better than 480 - is that right or wrong?.

    Also I see resolutions written like this 1280x720p and also like this 1080i - why no second number on the 1080i.

    Sorry to ask daft questions but newboy and trying to get my head round it.

    Thanks
     
  25. drummerjohn

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    >I want to output from the VGA port on the XCard and to be >quite honest the quality I am getting at the monent is rubbish >through the projector.

    Generally projectors are betting at scaling down than up - so that might be the issue. The Xcard output at 480 is totally unacceptable to me as well.

    >Do you have setting for the progressive section in the registry >(are they same as the HDTV? you gave earlier). Will it actaully >make a difference?
    Use the seetings I quoted earlier.

    >I am a little bit confused by this resolution business. I always >thought that if you had a feed of 480i you should not actually >actually be able to improve it, because nothing should be better >then the source surely. But by what I am hearing on the forums >you can - is that right. If so how does it do it.

    NTSC has a line height of 480. You may not see the gaps between the lines on a 28" TV but put that on a 6foot screen and its going to look like pooo. You are quite right - it is impossible to extrapulate more detail from a 480 feed than is already there. The whole point is - we need quality decoding of the 480 feed and then quality scaling of the decoded material. This is all about scaling - so that when you put your image, that was originally 480 lines onto a 6foot screen, it will now look better because you are putting 720 or more lines on the screen.

    >Also the XCard literature says you cannot output anything >better than 480 - is that right or wrong?.

    Re-read previous posts by myself and Scotty. The manual is right because legally thats all that hollywood will allow for an NTSC film.

    >Also I see resolutions written like this 1280x720p and also like >this 1080i - why no second number on the 1080i.
    1080i - the "i" is interlaced and majority of interlaced displays only do 50hz or 59.94hz or 60hz.

    >Sorry to ask daft questions but newboy and trying to get my >head round it.

    No problem - I'd be more disappointed if no-one asked any questions.
     
  26. KraGorn

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    There's no basic difference, except that 1280x720p makes it clear it's a 16:9 image whereas 1080i could of course refer to either 4:3 or 16:9 .. that said, AFAIK 1080i always actually infers 1920x1080i, the 'full' HiDef image size I believe.
     
  27. MikeTV

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    There you go again, losing me with all your technical terminology.

    :)
     
  28. sneaky

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    Thanks Guys,

    I only have PAL disk, am I right in thinking PAL is 576 lines. If I scaled PAL source disk what options should I have and how do you work that out.
     
  29. drummerjohn

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    Sneaky - you are the same as me in that my DVD collection is mainly PAL.

    I have a projector that will accept 720p (1280x720 @ 50hz) 1080p (1920x1080 @50hz).

    It is all down to what your display will accept.

    All I can say is that the higher the scaling by the Xcard the better the picture gets.
     
  30. sneaky

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    Thanks John,

    Getting clearer by the minute.

    Im ok with the Xcard now.

    I am also testing TT, if I was using 720p @ 50 on the projector. What do I set the Radeon to.

    What is your projector?

    Chris
     

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