Bargain X-Rite i1Display Pro < £140 @ Amazon

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Stu C, Jul 6, 2019.

Tags:
  1. Stu C

    Stu C
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    216
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Wirral
    Ratings:
    +51
  2. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Products Owned:
    7
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +404
  3. Stu C

    Stu C
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    216
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Wirral
    Ratings:
    +51
  4. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Products Owned:
    7
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +404
    Ill use it with HCFR, where software is not realy of any importance, only difference i can find is they claim that the I1display pro is 5 times faster, wich i guess is a software thing as well, seems to be same hardware.
     
  5. jfinnie

    jfinnie
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2004
    Messages:
    4,557
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +1,917
    It's a good price, been a long time since they were down at this level.
    Colormunki is much too slow if you ever plan on doing 3D LUT correction, I'd recommend getting the i1 display pro if you can.
     
  6. Stu C

    Stu C
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2014
    Messages:
    216
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    31
    Location:
    Wirral
    Ratings:
    +51
    What is 3D LUT correction? I'm going to have a learning process here, but having recently bought a TW9400, I thought I'd benefit from this for calibration... and I can calibrate my two TVs and PC monitor.
     
  7. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Products Owned:
    7
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +404
    Dont get to hang up on the nr, as you will get different results with different displays, as the probe will see the light differently, and if you want to be all in and acurate ull need to spend a looot of money on a reference spectrophotometer that will set you back 5000£ + that can be used to profile you I1Display Pro.
     
  8. jfinnie

    jfinnie
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2004
    Messages:
    4,557
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +1,917
    3DLUT is a mathematical calibration technique where you map the performance of a display throughout the entire gamut (automatically measuring 1000 or more points using appropriate software) and then create a 3D Lookup table to correct all aspects of the gamut. This overcomes many limitations of traditional calibration techniques, but places additional requirements on your meter as you want to complete the measurements as quickly as possible to avoid drift etc dominating measurements.

    You can do 3DLUT for free using madVR for playback and displayCAL / ArgyllCMS, so bearing this in mind it is well worth springing the few extra ££ to get the i1 display pro instead of the colormunki (which really is too slow for 3DLUT).
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Thanks Thanks x 1
    • List
  9. billiumb

    billiumb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    167
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    North Devon
    Ratings:
    +26
    Hi jfinnie

    Any idea if the i1 is suitable for calibrating an Epson LS10500, or do you need something much more specialised to work with the laser setup?

    Cheers. Bill
     
  10. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Products Owned:
    7
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +404
    The i1Display pro is as good as it needs to be, the only thing is that if you want to be sure you calibrate right you need to profile it to a spectrophotometer, otherwise you easy be a lot off, and if you like to do a 3D lut ill say you have to profile it or you very well end up using to much correction and creating bigger errors than was in the first place.

    So in general ill say its a good tool for gamma corection, and keep your eyes open, if it looks to red it very well be, even the reading say its to blue. So a combination of your own eyes and the I1 can help you a lot if you know what your douing.
     
  11. jfinnie

    jfinnie
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2004
    Messages:
    4,557
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +1,917
    Complicated question...

    With colorimeters like the i1 display pro you need to have a correction ideally for the displays you are measuring. i1 display pro doesn't come (I believe) with a correction for blue laser + phosphor wheel, so there isn't an obvious out of box setting that will be colour accurate, though you should still be able to use it to some extent to see if gamma is reasonable, if the RGB balance is flat (if not colour accurate), and how saturation tracks approximately.

    To create a correction yourself you need a spectrophotometer or spectroradiometer of appropriate resolution. The blue laser light wavelength is very spikey (in fact, I think 2 sharp spikes for Epson laser). Cheap spectros like the i1pro1/2/3 (not to be confused with the i1 display pro colorimeter) usually have something like 10nm bandwidth (though there is a software tweak to 3.3nm with lots of caveats). 10nm is not generally regarded as narrow enough to characterise the blue laser light. It is reckoned that you need at least 5nm to do a good job on laser projectors, which puts you into having access to at least something like a Jeti 1201 or better (I got a good deal on a used one, but factor something like £5k for new...!)

    Jeti have a white paper that describes the issues here (though with the example of a full RGB laser):
    https://www.jeti.com/cms/images/jeti_com/down/application_notes/an_27.pdf

    If you wanted to really get into colour correction yourself of a laser PJ, relying on the readings from your i1 display pro, you'd probably want to try and have a calibrator who has a sufficiently accurate spectro profile your meter to your display. It is the kind of thing that can be done quickly by someone with the gear (maybe in passing on the way to another job).

    Calibration (well, any sort of metrology interest) can be a bit of a rabbit hole as you very quickly discover the limits of the consumer level equipment. I'd probably be much richer and have watched more movies and less test patterns if I'd just paid someone, but it can also be fun learning about something.
     
  12. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,088
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,492
    I picked up a profiled i1Pro recently and checked my LS1000s greyscale calibration with it. It had been calibrated previously on my old screen (using a better meter - may have been a Jeti), and when I checked it on the new screen it was out a little - the blue was a bit high IIRC. Now, I don't know if that was down to the new/different screen material or the i1 not being accurate enough for the laser (or a combination of both), but after I recalibrated and made a memory, I can't see the difference between the two when doing A/B comparisons. Greyscale ramps look fine too, with no obvious colour tints.

    I don't know how much difference there is between an out of the box i1 vs a profiled i1 against a better meter, and without checking it for accuracy using a more laser compatible meter I won't know for sure, but unless you really want the knowledge of 100% accuracy for piece of mind, I would say that the i1 Pro is good enough for simple home calibration of the laser Epson.

    James, as you have samples of the Spandex and UF material, I wonder if you could try a simple measure and comparison of them both if you get the time? That will show the difference between the two (albeit using a lamp based pj) and that may be of some use to knowing if my differences are more material than light source based.
     
  13. Wull

    Wull
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    May 19, 2009
    Messages:
    3,892
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    lake district
    Ratings:
    +621
    ..
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  14. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Products Owned:
    7
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +404
    and whats the difference between the correction profile and native measurement in de on a 100% ire measurement.?

    It would actually be very educational to see the original calibration report, and your measurement with the I1Display when you just got it profiled, and then your latest measurements, wich will also show if its a drift, or a profile tolerance compared to the pro equipment.

    Mostly interesting would be a report with and without meter correction
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  15. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,088
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,492
    Unfortunately I don't have the original calibration report or correction profile info and without doing a calibration on the old screen we don't really know if the difference is down to the meter or the screen.

    I'm not that fussed about calibration like I was say 15+ years ago and just got the meter more out of curiosity than anything else - I was happy with the image on the new screen material and would have lived with that, but the upgraded/profiled meter came up at a good price with Chromapure so I decided to treat myself. :)

    So for me, the meter is 'good enough' with the laser, given the difference (I think I saw a max dE of 4 at the top end before recalibration but can't remember for sure), and why I think it will get you close enough. Not everyone will be happy with 'close enough' though, in which case they'd need something a bit more definitive than my opinion, which is all it is.
     
  16. billiumb

    billiumb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    167
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    North Devon
    Ratings:
    +26
    Thanks James - really interesting. I can see that I may well be spending a fair bit of time reading and learning.

    Cheers. Bill
     
  17. billiumb

    billiumb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    167
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    North Devon
    Ratings:
    +26
    Hi Peter - how confident are you that the change was not due to drift in the laser projector setup?

    Cheers. Bill
     
  18. Stridsvognen

    Stridsvognen
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2012
    Messages:
    2,449
    Products Owned:
    7
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Ratings:
    +404

    Could you do a reading of a 100% ire window, with and without correction on the meter, ignore the projectors current condition, just focusing on how much correction is aplied in the software correction to the laser profile, wich will give users that buy a standard meter with no chance to do a profiling a idea what kind of differences we are talking about here.
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  19. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,088
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,492
    Judging by what the calibrator told me from his experience and others I've read elsewhere, I'm reasonably confident it wasn't down to laser drift, but that's not to say it's not possible. I think there was a case where one calibrator said he saw a laser pj that had drifted more than any lamp based pj but that seems more like an exception than the rule, or even a faulty unit.

    I think laser has other attributes such as a cleaner, calmer more stable image that is more important to me than how often it may need calibrating compared to a lamp based pj for example.
     
  20. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,088
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,492
    No I can't :)
     
  21. jfinnie

    jfinnie
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2004
    Messages:
    4,557
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +1,917
    You need to have quite a high difference in white point before it starts to be notable in A/B comparisons, I'm not surprised.

    I'll do it if I get a moment, will be interesting for a few minutes geekery :)
    I'll compare my current screen also (Screen Research Clearpix 4k AT surface).
     
  22. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,088
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,492
    They say a dE of 3 or less is unnoticeable, and I believe a dE of 2 or less is preferential for reference white, but I find that although you may be able to see a difference in a side by side comparison, it's going to be much harder when doing A/B comparisons. I think that's one of the reasons I'm not as bothered about super accurate calibration any more. provided it doesn't look obviously wrong it's going to be close enough to 'as intended' as to make no difference for me now. Even the out of the box 'natural' setting (709) was very good and I can't say that it was noticeably different after it was calibrated, but the 2020 setting did make a difference with skin tones in particular looking more natural, so for me that did make a difference and was worthwhile. I've never even badgered Ricky for the calibration report.

    Excellent, thanks :)

    I can't check my meter against the pre profile setting so what you're doing is going to be the closest we can get to seeing if what my meter saw was down to the screen differences or something else.
     
  23. jfinnie

    jfinnie
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2004
    Messages:
    4,557
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +1,917
    For sure, the most important aspect of calibration is that the gamma and greyscale track properly as these are displayed simultaneously in ways which obviously affect the image. Absolute colour calibration, a little like peak luma, has much more leeway.

    For fun, I measured my screen (Clearpix 4K), the Seymour UF and Spandex. Measured with my Jeti 1201.

    Note I now have my projector deliberately calibrated a bit too blue to correct for the slight blue cut my prescription glasses have (everyone else watching my screen can be damned... lol).

    Anyway, the results were:
    Clear pix: 51.0300 nits, x 0.3083, y 0.3240
    UF: 56.5600 nits, x 0.3105, y 0.3260 (3.5dE2000(xy) to clearpix, excluding luma)
    Spandex: 53.2200 nits, x 0.3055, y 0.3215 (7.3dE2000(xy) to UF, excluding luma)

    I'd say this puts the two commercial screens fairly close, with the Spandex being bluest by some margin (with a UHP lamp source)
     
  24. billiumb

    billiumb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    167
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    North Devon
    Ratings:
    +26
    Is the higher nits figure for the UF a measure of its higher gain?

    Cheers. Bill
     
  25. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,088
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,492
    Thanks for doing that James.

    So if the Spandex has a blue shift compared to the UF, without recalibrating the image the UF should measure less blue shouldn't it?

    I thought the blue measured higher on the UF after changing from the Spandex, but I could be remembering that backwards - I'd have to check it.
     
  26. billiumb

    billiumb
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    167
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    28
    Location:
    North Devon
    Ratings:
    +26
    Thanks Peter.

    Am I right in thinking that in your experience, the laser offers a cleaner, calmer more stable image PLUS the benefit of not needing calibration as often as a lamp based pj? If so, is this generally accepted?

    Cheers. Bill
     
  27. jfinnie

    jfinnie
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2004
    Messages:
    4,557
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    133
    Location:
    Norwich
    Ratings:
    +1,917
    It's brighter, so likely yes, but also a different colour. To be sure if the brightness is useable I'd need to calibrate the peak white for each to D65, and I've put the samples away for the night... :)

    Yes, that is what I would expect. If you overlay the spandex on the UF it does look "bluer" in the light of my UHP lamp, so it stands to reason.
     
  28. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,088
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,492
    I don't know about generally accepted but I have seen a lot of similar comments elsewhere with regard to the image it produces, and the laser JVC gets similar comments when compared to the lamp based models, but ideally you'd try and see and compare so you can decide what ticks the most boxes for you.
     
  29. Peter Parker

    Peter Parker
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2001
    Messages:
    14,088
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    UK.
    Ratings:
    +3,492
    Reminds me when I saw some Stewart ST130 over a Beamax screen - the Beamax had an obvious pink push to it. I'll try and measure a full white field and see what it comes out like with Ricky's Spandex 709 settings and my UF 709 settings. Not sure when but hopefully soonish. I may even try and measure the Spandex with Ricky's settings and see what that looks like with my meter - that would be interesting.
     
  30. youngsyp

    youngsyp
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2006
    Messages:
    6,307
    Products Owned:
    5
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Silverstone
    Ratings:
    +1,583
    Completely off topic and shamelessly self-indulgent but, I've been trying for years to get my i1Pro corrected using a reference spectro, without success. So if you're anywhere near Silverstone, with Jeti in tow, there's a free lunch waiting for you, in exchange for 30 minutes of your time. :D

    Paul
     

Share This Page

Loading...