Would you buy an EV for the long term?

Discussion in 'Hybrid, PHEV & EV Electric Cars Forum' started by ajdj1, Jul 20, 2017.


    1. ajdj1

      ajdj1
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      We are going to be moving to Fuerteventura in the Canary Islands within the next 8 months and I am starting to look at our car options.

      Supply and demand dictates that second hand cars are expensive there compared to the UK. I've looked at various options (including buying LHD in UK and repatriating onto Spanish plates) and it is becoming more obvious to me that buying new and planning on keeping it for at least 10 years is the best way to go.

      There are various dealerships there including Hyundai who seem to offer good value for money and a decent warranty. On browsing their website I discovered the Ioniq and subsequent posts on here. In my mind an EV would make a lot of sense-

      1. The island is 62 miles long and 19 miles wide. Our house is quite central so the longest round trip would be 100 miles and that wouldn't be particularly frequent.
      2. The year round good weather is seemingly favourable conditions for an EV
      3. We have already had a wooden pergola constructed for parking with a power socket. Charging at home should be straightforward enough (subject to double checking things with an electrician etc).
      4. There are some chargers located on the island, although no rapid chargers by the looks of things. It would appear they are free to use so would be to get a top up whilst shopping or visiting a couple of the beaches.
      5. Neighbouring Lanzarote has several rapid chargers so no problem there if we want to use the ferry to visit occasionally.

      There's certainly fewer negatives than positives-

      1. Despite being declared a biosphere reserve by UNESCO, Fuerteventura seems to be a bit behind the times on the use of renewable energy. There are a couple of small wind farms but domestically nobody seems to use solar or wind power. I've certainly never seen an EV in person so we would probably feel like guinea pigs to a certain degree but then again, someone has to go first!
      2. We want to travel, I'm sure it's entirely possible to take an EV on the ferry to the mainland and drive through Spain. If not we can just fly and hire a car.

      The main issue for me is probably a financial one. I've already tried to explain to my wife that the majority of the cost is upfront with an EV. What isn't so straightforward is what the expected life span of an EV (or its battery) is. It seems most people in the UK are leasing EV's, which is understandable as the technology continues to advance.

      Has anybody purchased one outright? Does anybody think it would be foolish to do so and plan to keep it long term?
       
    2. IronGiant

      IronGiant
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      The main reason most are leasing and not jumping in is range, in my view. As you say the technology is still in it's infancy and major improvements are on the horizon (although that could be a mirage in a desert :)). However, given your geographical constraints, range isn't really a problem for you. Today's technology will do you fine (except for your travels off island). @DrPhil bought his Leaf but second hand IIRC.
       
    3. DrPhil

      DrPhil
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      As @IronGiant says, I bought outright but second hand to avoid the bulk of the depreciation.

      If I were you I would scout out second hand electrics in mainland Spain and see what the value is like.

      As far as your wife and the finances are concerned, put together some figures. If the cost is her concern then that's the best way to explain it.

      My wife was the one who wanted to go electric, for environmental reasons. Range initially put me off, but the facts and figures of the finances was what converted me.

      For us we paid about £2k more than we would have for a similar sized diesel, but we save almost £2k a year every year since.
       
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    4. gangzoom

      gangzoom
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      I leased our old Leaf but the Tesla has been bought out right with plans to keep it for the best part of a decade.

      The key difference between the Leaf and Tesla is range. The Leaf though much cheaper to buy outright has limited range even when new, by the time you add in battery degradation it's likely to need a new battery within a 10 year ownership window, and each new version of the Leaf is adding more range.

      The Tesla on the otherhand already has more than enough range, in 5K miles I've yet to run the battery below 10% charge status. Regardless of how the market develops the Tesla will remain fully usable and suitable for our needs even in a decades time. Battery technology is already good enough to deliver 200-300 miles of real life range, its now simply getting the cost down. The battery tech used in current EVs is actually very mature (Sony released the first Lihtium-ion battery in 1991!!), almost all of the focus is current on reducing manufacturing costs. Newer battery tech is coming but your looking at 10-20 years before they actually become commercial products you can buy.

      If I was in your position I would wait to see what the next 6 months brings in terms of 'affordable' long range EVs. A Nissan Leaf with a 60kWh battery is a much better longterm ownership prospect than the current cars. Similarly the first Tesla Model 3 is literally days (8 to be exact) away from been 'delivered' to customers. At <$30K and 200miles+ of real life range, again buying outright would see it give you a decade of use with no real issues.
       
    5. IronGiant

      IronGiant
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      Did you read the rest of his post? :)
       
    6. rousetafarian

      rousetafarian
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      I could cycle from one end of the island to another
       
    7. IronGiant

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      Given the nearest Tesla dealer is in Lisbon and there are no superchargers anywhere between there and the mainland ports (yet?) and none on the islands, I think a current Ioniq as planned would be more than adequate for his needs.

      OT, sounds like a fantastic place to move to. :clap:
       
    8. Alan CD

      Alan CD
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      If EV is the way you wish to go then go for it and from what you're saying the island seems ideal for the Ioniq.

      As an old experienced traveller with family what I do on arrival in a strange country is see what car makes/models the locals are driving and purchase one the missus and I fancy from the local dealer.

      However, as you are thinking of trailblazing the EV scenario in Fuerteventura may I suggest you check there are no restrictions or rules governing the use of EVs on the island.

      Also check the Ioniq battery conditioning system is OK in handling high temperatures occasionally seen there, bearing in mind high temperatures increase the battery degradation. Having said that I understand the temperatures don't reach the extremes seen on the mainland.

      Research is the key :thumbsup:
       
    9. ajdj1

      ajdj1
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      You certainly could, if you don't mind the mountains in the middle Its becoming increasingly popular with cyclists and triathletes. Even Kel Brook and his boxing friends are seen there cycling as part of their training camps.

      A Tesla is a non-starter, not least as IG mentions due to lack of dealership support and superchargers but it would be complete overkill for our needs.

      Thanks for the input so far. To summarise, there are no EV restrictions on the island but there don't appear to be any particular incentives either. Apparently there is a company owned Leaf somewhere north so there is at least one currently residing there.

      Canaries are not part of the fiscal EU so buying in mainland Spain would require us to import the car in and pay additional import tax. We would really be looking at buying through a dealer on one of the Canary Islands. Obviously we would prefer they were based in Fuerteventura for servicing and after care.

      The local roads are a blend of diesel hungry 4x4's favoured by the locals and lots of supermini hire cars (vw up, polo, fiat punto, panda etc).
       
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    10. DOBLY

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      Would you be able to put solar panels on your wooden pergola, plus a battery, inverter & podpoint (or, dare I say it, Tesla Powerwall or other equivalent units)
      How expensive/reliable is the grid electricity there?
      Lots of possibilities - the choice of car is just one.
       
    11. gangzoom

      gangzoom
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      I did, the main point is buying an EV to own outright is not the thing to do (Tesla aside).

      Lots of the current Eve are due upgraded battery packs in the next 6 months, so unless the OP is desperate for an EV now, waiting 6 months would mean getting much more range for the same amount of cash.
       
    12. IronGiant

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      As he is going to be buying only after he gets there that won't be a problem then, will it. And as he's buying locally he's only going to be looking at Hyundai, unless I read that wrong. :p
       
    13. rousetafarian

      rousetafarian
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      @gangzoom

      The first 5 words of the OP's last post are 'A Tesla is a non-starter' so why on earth mention Tesla yet again.

      Seriously you are becoming tedious with this approach, it's akin to continual spamming and will be dealt as such.
       
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    14. outoftheknow

      outoftheknow
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      I don't think I would wait and worry about future improvements given the the specifics in the OP posts. At the time of the move the Ioniq that is available on the island seems to fit the bill and wil do so for years to come. If I worried about better things to about to come along my TV would still be CRT :)

      The solar panel idea occurred to me as well. Mind you if there are no incentives the cost might be why nobody is doing it yet.
       
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    15. ajdj1

      ajdj1
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      We would love to do this but I fear the cost and bureaucracy may make it difficult. Everything requires permission from the local town hall which is painfully slow and not guaranteed. Took us 6 months to get permission for the pergola, driveway and swimming pool by which time they were already finished (luckily we had no issues). There is no open market for electricity and I have read suggestions that the relationship between the electricity company and council is the reason for the difficulty of increasing solar power on the island. I need to do more research. It is a windy island and we are nicely elevated, I don't know how feasible a small wind generator would be?

      Electricity supply is reliable and costs approximately the equivalent of 10p/kWh

      Petrol is currently 85p/litre, diesel is 80p/litre.

      I wouldn't rule out other manufacturers at this stage, I just like the look of the Ioniq from what I've seen online. There is a Nissan dealership so Leaf 2 is also a possibility. Off the top of my head we have Ford, VW/Seat, Peuguot, Opel, Mercedes, Hyundai, Nissan, Citroen/Kia.
       
    16. IronGiant

      IronGiant
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      Couple of possibilities there then :thumbsup:
       
    17. gangzoom

      gangzoom
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      Ofcourse you shouldn't wait forever,

      The issue of battery size though isn't just what's suitable for the OP NOW, but also in the future. The OP wants to keep the car for 5 years+, at this point battery degradation becomes a concern.

      The rate of battery degradation is directly related to the size of the battery.

      Lets assume a Nissan Leaf with a 30kWh pack can do 100 miles per charge.

      Lest say same car (Leaf 2) with a 60kWh pack will do 200 miles per charge.

      Over 10,000 miles the 30kWh Leaf battery will have gone through recharge/discharge 100 cycles, but the 60kWh will have only done 50 cycles - so the large battery car will have suffered half the amount of degradation in the same distance.

      If OP was renting/hiring the car this is not an issues, as degradation will only be apparent after close to 500 cycles, but since the OP is thinking of buying and keeping for a long time, degradation is a major issue to think about.

      A 30kWh Leaf range WILL have noticeable degradation after 500 charge cycles - so about 50K, but a 60kWH Leaf would get to 100K before similar degradation is apparent. For the sake of waiting a few months the OP would be best advised to wait and see, rather than buy now.

      I'm simply trying to advise the OP base on my experience of owning EVs for the last 2.5 years, and researching the market/monitoring EV development since late 2014. If I was in the OP position I would wait for the next gen Leaf, before parting with any cash.

      I remember when I fist posted about the Leaf on here many forum members mocked EVs as a joke (and I suspect some still do), back than the possibility of a 200 mile range 'affordable' EV was a pipe dream and at the time there was no choice but to get a cheap/low range EV. We are now literally months away from these next gen cars from coming on the market, all the OP needs is a little bit more patience.
       
      Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2017
    18. outoftheknow

      outoftheknow
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      Sorry @gangzoom i have to disagree. The OP gave some very specific circumstances about where he will use an EV and asked if we were him would we buy one for the move in 8 months time as the car for some time to come on the island.

      Whether batteries in a car like the Ioniq last 5 years or 8 years and that in a year or two there will be higher range cheaper cars and so on is almost irrelevant. I said buy what is the best for the money he is looking to spend on arrival (in 8 months time) and it will last years. I think that is a true statement.

      There is no point in letting this OP know about the tech that is more than 8 months away. There are heaps of threads where are all going on about that kind of thing.

      If the answer is an EV available at his price point when he arrives won't do what he wants it to do, he would buy an ICE car and run it for years.

      That isn't the answer to this question though IMHO.
       
    19. IronGiant

      IronGiant
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      If the OP's annual mileage is only say 3K, which is quite feasible on such a small island, it will be more than 15 years before he does 50K and all that extra battery will be a waste unless he wants to keep it for 30 years. And as he's not buying it until next year anyway he can make that decision then, when he knows whether the new 60 KWh Leaf costs the same as a 30kWh one now. We should also bear in mind that he's possibly going to be on a low amperage charger in that pergola and it could take most of a day to recharge a 60kWh battery.

      The latest and greatest is not always the best option.

      P.S. the 30kWh battery would appear to warranted against excess capacity loss for 8 years or 100,000 miles, which rather renders the point moot.

      http://nissannews.com/media_storage/downloads/2016_Nissan_LEAF_Specs_FINAL.pdf

      (The 24kWh battery is 5 years and 60K which is similar to the figures gz is using)
       
      Last edited: Jul 21, 2017
    20. outoftheknow

      outoftheknow
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      The point about charging facilities is a good one IG and was another reason I consider waiting for bigger batteries isn't part of the answer to this specific question :thumbsup:
       
    21. IronGiant

      IronGiant
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      A wise man once said to me:

      "If your usage pattern fits, a used 24kWh car will be cheaper than a 30kWh car and serve you just as well."
       
    22. Bl4ckGryph0n

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      Fascinating point.

      One thing that intrigues me is why the locals all have diesel 4x4s. Is there something to it that when living all year round that makes sense?

      My cousin lives on the mainland in Valencia, but for the weekend they often like many other go their "farm". The roads to get to the houses of the locals there were simply not in a state where I'd often like to drive the rental car I had. For one off or a holiday it was ok to be super careful and avoid the holes and rocks etc. But if I lived there year round I'd also have a diesel 4x4.

      I've never been to fuertofuenture but have been to Lanzerote. And once off the smooth link roads it was rock filled lanes and fairly uncomfortable.

      Just something to bear in mind.
       
    23. Alan CD

      Alan CD
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      I thought the same thing but didn't mention it because there are other factors why many locals drive 4x4s.

      It's the same in America with large pickup trucks; very popular even in the big cities.

      ...Just saying :)
       
    24. Stuart Wright

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      We're buying a new Ioniq outright, so naturally I applaud you on your choice.
      Ours was made as much for it looks as practicality, safety, whizzy tech and very competitive price.
      Electric Hyundai Ioniq owner's vlog #1:...

      Ordered it in February and it's being delivered next month (all Ioniqs are delayed because Hyundai can't get the batteries quick enough).
      So if you want one within the next 8 months, I would order one sooner rather than later.

      I would also investigate getting solar panels. Not only because the amount of sunshine there (Weather and temperature averages for Fuerteventura, Canary Islands) means that they will likely pay for themselves relatively quickly, but also because if you use them in conjunction with a zappi | myenergi you can charge the car using spare solar power - i.e. for free. (And if you install an http://myenergi.uk/product/eddi/ as well, you can also get free hot water). That's assuming that the myenergi products work ok in Spain. Easy enought to find that out.

      Don't have a hesitation about battery degradation. The Ioniq's battery is guaranteed for 8 years.
      And there is a Hyundai dealership in the East side of the island Hyundai i30 | Hyundai Motor Islas Canarias Sitio Web Oficial
       
    25. Benzyl

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      The Merc B Class Electric drive is a steal second hand and has a 125-mile range has a Tesla derived motor but not batteries and is rated as one of the best to drive.
      I had a leaf for a week and thought if this is the future, once the range extends to 300+ then it looks pretty good to me, could not fault it other than giving me range anxiety!
       
    26. ajdj1

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      Thanks everyone, I wasn't getting notifications for this so I've only just seen some of replies.

      The road infrastructure on Fuerteventura is excellent. In fact two new motorways have recently opened and all of the main roads are tarmaced and in good condition. There are a couple of more remote beaches that would require you to go off road but we haven't been to them yet as so there are so many excellent beaches elsewhere, so this isn't likely to be an issue.

      We are back out there at the end of August for a couple of weeks, I've found a local company who supply solar systems (they also own a Nissan Leaf) so I will go and speak to them for some advice. We will also keep an eye out for the public charging points to see if they look operational and what type of connectors they use.
       
    27. Deleted member 598831

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      Sorry for off topic, but nice one for moving to Fuerte! We love it, and since 2002 the roads are better than most in the UK, Especially now the have the FV1 FV2 FV3 FV4.

      On topic of beaches, flag beach in Corralejo, Cofete (4x4) Jandia, Sotavento.

      If you ever venture into Corralejo, go and visit Infusion. Very good chef;)
       
    28. martimu

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      Most EV's seem to include the ability to pre heat/cool the car. I can activate mine on a timer or immediately via an app. Be rather a nice asset in a hot country to be able to pre cool the interior. I've enjoyed it the few hot days we've had this summer
       
    29. Phill104

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      For me electric cars are currently not an option. I regularly drive 400miles in a day in my company car, which is a Prius+, a hybrid with 7 seats giving me plenty of room for my windsurf gear at weekends too. It is great, very easy to drive and should it run out of energy the next petrol station refills it in a minute or two. Current electric cars simply cannot cope with the type of driving I do. Couple that with the complete lack of infrastructure in the UK, even in London, and the very high cost of the initial purchase and we are a long way off. Hybrid is only a stop gap, but for me the only viable one at present.

      Interestingly, the Sainsbury's just a mile as the crow flies from where I work has an on site hydrogen plant for filling HFC cars, vans etc. It does not take up too much room on site and gives all the benefits of fossil fuel cars. With 3 manufacturers now selling Hydrogen cars in the UK albeit in very low numbers it will be interesting to see if it caches on. The hydrogen pumps are in regular use as far as I can see.
       
    30. BrightonChris

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      Oh yes, I'll get my 100m extension cable ready. The EV craze always forgets the fact that tens of millions of people can't park in a driveway or garage, or even outside their home. There is no charging infrastructure of note and even if there were having to wait the massively optimistic time of even 30 minutes won't do. Also, these cars have a catastrophic carbon footprint in production. I don't get the fuss. Hydrogen seems like the more practical and ideological evolution of car propulsion.
       
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