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Would you buy a TV without HDMI?

Discussion in 'LCD & LED LCD TVs' started by gofer, Apr 3, 2005.

  1. gofer

    gofer
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    As a new punter to all this connectivity confusion, I'd like to poll opinions on whether either DVI or HDMI or both are 1. an absolute neccesity for some minimum guarantee of future proofness and a HD/digital world and 2. which is preferable either or or indeed both?

    Gofer
     
  2. David Mackenzie

    David Mackenzie
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    Both should be the standard I think.
    We have S-Video and Composite video input jacks as well as SCART connectors to show all sorts of standard definition signals. I don't see why it should be any different for Digital.

    Having spent 1300 pounds on a Sony KLV26HG2 (European model) that I will have to replace earlier than I intended, I certainly will never buy another model without HDMI.
     
  3. pjclark1

    pjclark1
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  4. asimmd

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    Hi All
    I have been trying to decide whether to go LCD or Plasma for some time now,and after a trip to our local Specialist Centre,I am still no wiser.

    All this talk about Hi Def is ok,but does anyone have the remotest idea how much it will cost? and will it be worth it?

    Several threads lately have said that people have bought a non HD ready tv for now,and will replace it when HD is available,oh that it was that easy,where do you people dispose of such items,do you lose a lot of money.

    Giving to relations is alright, if you have some!

    Sorry if this sounds like a moan but I,like a lot of others seem to spend more time trying to decide what to buy,while you guys are sat there enjoying it.

    Cheers

    Alan
     
  5. jimsan

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    Please don't believe this anybody! As far as I know there is no way you can circumvent th HDCP (High-bandwidth Digital Copy Protection) by the addition of a wee £130 'box'.

    This box will probably convert from HDMI to VGA, but that is all, I'm sure the Copy Protection will prevent this from working.

    Jimmy
     
  6. pjclark1

    pjclark1
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    read the blurb on the link for yourself, looks like they are claiming to give a RGBHV signal from a protected HDCP signal to me.

    I may be wrong, I often am.
     
  7. Starburst

    Starburst
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    The more basic question should be...

    Do you buy a TV that supports the HD resolutions now and then you make sure it has either a HDCP compliant DVI input or the HDMI input to future proof and cover all bases.

    If you have no great interest in HD right now or in the next year or so and don't want a large screen/flat panel type display then you can still buy good quality "normal" TV's at cheap prices. The actual amount you then decide to pay would then probably give you the timeframe you intend to use this display before considering HD at some future point.
    HD is the future and the BBC have committed themselves to 100% production by 2010 although and as much as I don't like the idea of them being a force in UK telly the fact is that once the BBC joins in (just as they did for DTT) the marketing and public awareness will leap forward.
     
  8. Starburst

    Starburst
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    Since the use of HDCP relies on the two devices (source and display or source and recorder I suspect) communicating with eachother and the TV won't pumping out any HDCP related data on anything but it's HDMI or DVI ports then I can't see this device being practical.

    However this is very much new technology to me and like you it would be very easy to grab the wrong end of the stick but US retailers I suspect are just as good as wording promotional blurbs and hyping a productions usefullness as any UK one could:)
     
  9. Llanowar

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    I for one hope you're not ;)

    I've also already said this somewhere in the high def topic, i refuse to believe high def won't go through component, how do they ever expect people to accept this new technology? I for one, know NOBODY that even has dvi on his/her television
     
  10. pjclark1

    pjclark1
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    the whole idea behind HDCP is copyright protection. Every form of hardware copyright protection devised, has been overcome within a very short space of time. I equate the wording in the ads for this device to be the same as "Video stabaliser" when talking about macrovision. Inside the DC-DA1 the chips have had the surface info abraded away. Always a giveaway when a device is designed to do something a bit dodgy.

    My opinion on this whole topic of Hi-def is, if they think they can protect their content to a large extent, then HDMI will be in everything, and component will become a thing of the past. If enough devices are available to effectively break the HDCP protection before it gets a stranglehold, then hi-def through component will become fairly standard
     
  11. gofer

    gofer
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    Seems to me that investing in "HD ready" is still today no guarantee that the device will be HD ready, unless you cover both bases by having DVI and HDMI, or am I wrong?
     
  12. smallmanongn

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    I purchased my Sony KLVL32 LCD knowing it wasn't HD ready.
    My way of looking at it is that for the time being it works perfectly well with RGB for Sky,90% of the population isnt even aware of HD at the moment so any equipment will still have to carry the usual SCART connections etc.
    By the time HD is prolific I will be looking for a new TV anyway,I think it is a case of do you want to be the first or are you okay with waiting for a while,me,I am somewhere in the middle!
     
  13. Puffer

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    Surely at this point in time the main thing is the picture quality is as good as it can be
    for the media we have at the moment. H D live transmission is pie in the sky or pie for
    Sky as no doubt their will be a premium price to pay for this service when it happens.
     
  14. jimg

    jimg
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    It does not say that it removes HDCP, it is converting a digital input to an analogue output. It is not clear what happens when it receives a HDCP signal,it says "The DC-DA1 is HDCP compliant and can be used with devices that use this copy protection feature. " So it sounds like you are still stuffed!

    What do you mean NOBODY, a large proportion of the people on this forum have a DVI-HDCP or HDMI screen. :suicide:

    If you are interested in any future Hi-def sources then the answer is buy a screen with one or the other, or accept you need a new screen at some point. The question is, why NOT buy a screen that is HD Ready, the only answer is if it saves money?
     
  15. gslater

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    I have recently purchased a sharp LC26GA3E....for me it was essential that it be HD ready...although it does not meet the full HD ready standards as it has DVI which is HDCP compliant but not HDMI....I figured this was not an issue as I can use optical to get digital sound through to my amp rather than needing to send the sound through the HDMI.

    The reason why is that I am definitely going to be one of the first people to buy sky's HD product....yeah they may charge me a fortune, but thats the price you pay for trying to be at the cutting edge...and enjoying the benefits it brings (even it it does cost).
     
  16. ianh64

    ianh64
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    It doesn't really matter whether this device converts a DVI/HDCP signal to analogue or not (HDCP is digitally encrypted on a per pixel basis to there is no analogue equivalent). For it to do this, which is quite easy if you know how, it must have a valid secret device key. However, this device secret key can be rendered invalid just by watching a DVD or digital broadcast thus rendering the device obsolete.

    It would then be worth nothing.
     
  17. pjclark1

    pjclark1
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    you are wrong.
     
  18. Faust

    Faust
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    Sky will be using component out on their next generation of STB's in readiness for their Hi Def launch, in order to appeal to the widest possible audience. That statement is 100% accurate.
     
  19. jimsan

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    I think you'll find he is right, PJ. He usually is! This HDCP box thing is not what you are hoping it is. All they mean is that it is 'compatible' with HDCP devices, which means nothing to me. Sorry. Might be worth contacting them before taking this discussion much further...

    Faust,

    Hi! You are right, Sky will broadcast some HiDef programmes over component to soften the HD transition 'blow', but it will be limited and probably not long term.

    Jimmy
     
  20. ianh64

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    Nope...

    The SRM's are part of any MPEG data stream - it is carried in a spare data area which will be present on the data stream of any DVD, HD-DVD/Bluray or digital broadcast and can be part of the original data stream as supplied to the broadcaster. As such, Sky etc would have no control over the SRM so outside of their control, their box can be prevented from talking to a compromised display device or the DVI to VGA converter, which is in breach of the HDCP standard and thus the LLC (who issue device secret keys control the revocation list) are fully justified to disable the device.

    -Ian
     
  21. jimg

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    Ian,
    You are a star! I have lost count of how many times you have tried to explain this, and how many times people refuse to accept it!
     
  22. pjclark1

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    I understand what you are saying, it's just not gonna happen.

    Say for example, I'm diverting a small % of decoder chips from Philips screens to put in these boxes and scrubbing the chip IDs off so they can't be easily identified. How is being able to turn the chips off going to help anyone, you can't tell which chips were diverted, are you gonna turn off all HDMI chips supplied to Philips? I don't think such action is likely to happen.

    Why do you think they are scrubbing the chip IDs? (chips diverted from legit sources)
    Are you going to deny Korea, China, Taiwan access to decoder chips? (because they will sell them on)

    Legit chips are only going to become easier to divert.
     
  23. jimsan

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    I'm now firmly out of my depth here, but even if what PJ is saying is true you are going to end up with an analogue version of HiDef anyway which will be inferior to the origional digital one. How bad this will look will remain to be seen....

    I'm also pretty sure that companies like the one manufacturing this box will have to be little more subtle in their approach to advertising such products if, as PJ says, they are effectively producing illegal products.

    I'm pretty sure you're wrong PJ. Have you contacted this company yet for clarification? If they confirm what you say, will I alert the authorities or will you?

    Jimmy
     
  24. jimg

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    Some of these products have appeared and then disappeared again. Before too long it will not be an issue as all new sets will be OK and people will be upgrading their kit over a period of time. The only people interested in "breaking" HDCP will be the DVD pirates!
     
  25. ianh64

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    I've just has an email back from the manufacturers of this device regarding some pretty unambiguous questions. It looks fairly positive, however, I would much rather buy a TV with HDCP in the first place rather than place an expensive bet on a device that may or may not work in the future.

     
  26. bigddd

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    get over it! Just buy and HD ready tv with an HDMI input. Nuff said
     
  27. ianh64

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    The HDCP secret key are not included as part of the chipset as shipped. It is not added until the TV is assembled, so diverting chips isn't going to be be diverting a legitimate device secret key. The key is stored in PROM that is programmed at a much later date, for example when the software is uploaded. My display has a unique MAC address - I would expect its HDMI secret key to have been uploaded at the same time that the MAC address was assigned. This would also mean that a revoked set of keys could in theory be replaced back into legitimate devices.
     
  28. thegeby

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    Do google searches on "analog loophole" (with transatlantic spelling) and "broadcast flag". HDCP does not affect an analogue signal such as VGA. To close the loophole the "broadcast flag" has been invented, which tells a device what usage is permitted. It is intended to deal with copying via "digital TiVo" and can also restrict analogue signals. The "broadcast flag" seemt to have run ito a storm in the US courts.
     
  29. jimg

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    It does seem to confirm that the analogue output will NOT be Hi-def as some on here think! It looks quite logical you watch Hi-def on your TV and still record an analogue SD signal as you can today.
     
  30. Llanowar

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    "What do you mean NOBODY, a large proportion of the people on this forum have a DVI-HDCP or HDMI screen"

    I meant in the real life (you know that thing outside of your studyroom ;) ) i know nobody with such connections or even knowing anything about high def, do you really think they'll care if they can't play it through component, they will find things, as always, and if they don't....well dvd looks pretty damn good already so i'll just stick around and wait
     

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