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Would a scaler be any use with my setup. LG PX11

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by bigval, Apr 4, 2005.

  1. bigval

    bigval
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    Got the PX11 and although I am happy enough with the PQ from sky+ on AV1 would a scaler help me get a much better PQ?

    I use a ps2 on component, Panasonic DVD-S97 on DVI, and Sky+ on AV1 as said above.

    Would a scaler be a good buy or just a waste of money?

    Any tips on which one to get?
     
  2. MAW

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    Try before you buy mate. Iscan HD is £750, it will cope very well with your inputs, not quite sure what the LG will do if you send native from scaler and 720 from DVD though, P******C screens remember their settings for each signal re overscan and position, be interesting to see if LG does. Panny should begin to worry if it does.
     
  3. totalmadness

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    On the topic of scalers, I am currently looking to test the Zinwell scaler. It's half the price and I have heard good reviews about it. Does anyone have one of these and is that PQ improvment that noticable?

    I am currently running a Hitach 42PD5200 with Sky on AV4(RGB scart). I don't mind spend £200-300 pounds for this scaler if it does what it says on the packet.

    Also i understand that a scaler would de-interlace the feed to produce a progessive scanned image, which in theory produes a better picture.

    Also, I have noticed blotchy patches when watching scenes which have fast camera movement. Would a scaler help reduce this effect?

    Thanks,

    TOTALMADNESS
     
  4. JohnCCFC

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    Not sure if it's any help to you, but when I had a plasma tv (different make, but also had a built-in tuner) I found that not many add-on PQ improvement boxes may actually help too much (see MAWs explaination). I changed to a plasma display panel instead of the plasma tv.

    Make sure you hear recommendations from users who have tried a similar setup, or see a demo of same kit together.
     
  5. hornydragon

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    the electronics in your hitachi are most probably going to be better than those in a Zinwell Alis panels such as hitachi have the least to gain from a scaler as there is no way to bypass the internal processing......

    As for the LG a demo would be needed and may give a decent improvement i would first of all suggest you have the whole calibrated by Piers or gordon for £250 and ask them to demo a scaler while they are there.......if you just want another box to play with then an Iscan is a better bet as it is easier to use and offer a little more flexibility and audio delay
     
  6. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Wise words Horny. Get a demo. Lumagen is even more flexible than Iscan of course........Incidentally it's not possible to by pass the processing ini any plasma afaik. All you can do is try to minimise any adverse affects that the displays processing has.

    MAW: With a scaler surely you'd run all the sources through it so there would be no need for individual input size and positions on the display as everything would be fed to same input, or am I missing something?

    Gordon
     
  7. DOCTOR_d

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    A small PC running Dscaler might be a cheaper route ?

    I'm in the process of downloading it, so will let you know what the results are like..
     
  8. JohnCCFC

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    Doctor_d,

    When I was investigating this stuff, I learned that you should have a half decent graphics card (nvidia 6600 ?? - dvi out ??) and also a capture card. Opinion varied, if I remember, over whether a £40 one would do or whether you need £175 sweetspot.
    Searching these forums will find you plenty of threads on the matter.

    Hope this helps.
     
  9. totalmadness

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    Does this mean that a scaler would be no use to me at all? Surely if connected to the DVI socket I should be able to improve PQ? I'm now really confused about this. All i am trying to do is get a progressive signal from my Sky box. Scaling to 720p would be a bonus.

    It would be good if you tell me more about why Alis panels have less to gain from a scaler.

    Thanks,

    TOTALMADNESS
     
  10. NicolasB

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    The thing is, ALIS panels cannot actually display a progressive signal as such. If you feed in a 720p signal then (I think) the screen will actually downscale it to 512p and then double it to 1024i. You're probably better off feeding in an interlaced signal.
     
  11. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Of course if you feed it an interlaced SD signal what will it do then? Upscale from 240 line field to 512 then display 1024i? Will it de-interlace to 480P then upscale that to 512 line field?

    Being able to apply the best processing of different signal types will most probably bring about a reduction in the amount of jaggies and a sharper more smooth image.

    I've used a scaler on the 42" Hitachi and found that feeding it 1080i gave a sharper image than letting the plasma do it's own processing but that feeding it 720P and letting it downscale gave the most pleasing to view image of all (imho).

    Gordon
     
  12. totalmadness

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    Sorry, what I meant is that I want to send the SD (interlaced) signal from the Sky box to the Zinwell scaler and then have it upscaled to 720p. All I am trying to do is obtain max PQ from the Sky STB. Using RGB scart is good, but as the Zinwell is at a reasonable price, I do not mind buying it if it's going to improve the PQ.

    I hope im making better sense now. All this terminology is quite new to me and i'm still trying to get to grips with it.

    I really hope that the Zinwell box is the cheapest and best solution for me.
     
  13. JeffLaws1

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    Hi I've got a Zinwell bls 2000 coming in a couple of days (got it cheap on ebay) will be plugging it into a Hitachi 42pd4200 and seeing what I can get on sky with the thing pluged in DVI. I'll keep you posted as to the results.

    although sky is watchable on the scart rgb I am sure better could be had, intend to try Gordons idea of 1080I and 760P just to see what it does.
     
  14. hornydragon

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    i think if your were looking at using RGBS into a lumagen DVi or Iscan HD then you will see an in improvment (ho much depends on your system and if its worth the £800 its upto your eyes, likewise a zinwell may improve things but i personally think ISF calibration will help more than a cheap de-interlacer............
     
  15. totalmadness

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    All this got me thinking more on the topic of interlacing while on the way back from work on the London underground.

    My Hitach 4PD5200 is a progressive scanning plasma panel. Sorry to ask this stupid question, but does this mean that an interlaced signal (Sky) will be de-interlaced by the electronics in the screen and a progressive image would be scanned? Does this also mean that a de-interlacer would be useless? Or have I completely got the wrong end of the stick and what I see is actually a interlaced picture?

    When I plug my laptop into the screen via VGA, surely what I'm seeing on screen is a progressive scanned picture?

    I would be very grafeful if someone can shed some light on this topic.

    Jeflaws1, I would be very very interested to find out how you get on with your Zinwell scaler. Interested to know if you think the money that you have spent is worth it.
     
  16. MAW

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    Mr Madness, don't go there, I can see the worms inside the can, and they are horrible! AFAIK nobody knows the dark magic inside your panel, be happy it works for you.
     
  17. totalmadness

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    Ahhh but please please could you answer my questions about interlacing and progressive scanning. I really am not enjoying seeing the interlacing artefacts and was hoping a de-interlacer would help.
     
  18. hornydragon

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    if its an ALis 1024x1024 panel it isnt progressive it is Alis........
    the 576i output from sky sent into a none alis plasma EG a apnny PW6/7 will be shown as 480p so yes it is de-interlaced

    the laptop outputs a progressive signal but what you see is an Alis signal two frames of 512 lines shown alternatively there have been some very long debates about alis and how it works and until someone from Hitachi or Fujitsu in japan decides to explain it it will remain a mystery, what i can tell you there is rarely any benefit in spending money to deinterlace a signal before it reaches your screen.......
     
  19. totalmadness

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    Dragon, so the bottom line is that progressive scanning is not possible with an Alis screen? Why do I keep getting told by Hitachi technical that my screen that I have bought a progressive scanned screen. I am now seriously regretting my purchase!

    I really just want a better picture and really hate the fields that I am seeing in the picture.

    I bought it from Comet and they still advertise this screen as being progressive scan and as being HDTV ready. Do you consider this as misinforming the customer???
     
  20. MAW

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    It will accept a prog scan signal, sometimes there is a benefit in doing so. Nobody seems to be able to clearly explain how the ALIS system works. There are some seriously bright people on this forum, nobody knows. There is a kind of 'cod science' explanation on Fujitsus web site, but it's written by the marketing dept. Best to let it rest. The thing works, in this case ours is not to reason why.
     
  21. Ymegod

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    Hornydragon, are you sure that progressive scan does not work on an Alis panel ?
    MAW seems to think otherwise.
     
  22. JohnCCFC

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    Unless I'm mis-understanding, it can TAKE a prog signal but is NOT a prog screen (by design).
     
  23. hornydragon

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    oh you can send a progressive signal to an alis panel but it wont improve PQ compared to the interlace equivalent (if you use a better chips set or a DVD player with certain chipsets that give much better (cleaner) progressive signals than interlaced)
     
  24. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    If your display is progressive in nature then it has electronics inside to receive interlaced signals which it then de-interlaces and rescales to match the pixel array it has. Often they carry out frame rate conversions as well.

    This doesnt mean that an off board de-interlacer or scaler will be of no benefit. The quality and consistency of the video processing inside the plasma compared to that in the off board scaler will all have an effect on end image quality. Go look at the thread in the vide processor forum started by NicholasB about what a scaler does. I've almost finished writing a little article for my wesite that may make this more obvious.

    Gordon
     
  25. totalmadness

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    Ahhh so then basically a Zinwell can actually help??
     
  26. JeffLaws1

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    TotalMadness

    Well it arrived this morning, got to buy a DVI lead for it and hopefully set it up saturday afternoon after I get back from work (or tonight if the misses decides to bugger off for an hour) let you know how it goes.
     
  27. laser

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    My Hitachi 1024x1024 ALIS panel (42PMA400E) shows absolutely no difference in PQ when it is fed a progressive scan picture from the Pioneer DV-668.

    Other ALIS panels which I have demo'd seem to share the same characteristics.

    I'd seriously think about auditioning any scalers for use on an ALIs panel. You may find you are just throwing good money away.
     
  28. MAW

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    The iscan has a setting aimed specifically at ALIS, unfortunately the screens do not support this signal as an input!
     
  29. JeffLaws1

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    Is it just me or does that seem somewhat pointless, why develope something that nothing uses?
     
  30. totalmadness

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    I've been out all day and I've just got home and turned my Plasma TV on! I've noticed a big green line running top to the bottom of the screen! Think a whole line of pixels has gone!!! I've a Hitachi 42PD5200
     

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