Wonder Woman 1984 Movie Review & Comments

Coulson

Distinguished Member
I don't think I missed my own point, I'm not even sure logically how that's possible :)

People liked WW 2017 but I don't think they loved it. You cannot compare love of Wonder woman to the love of the Star Wars universe and it's occupants.
People are nit picking and beating WW up precisely because they are not blinded by any particular love of the character, whereas Mandalorian gets at least +2 because it's decent and all the loving fans are starving after the recent trainwreck films.

If a Star Wars film came out tomorrow, everyone would go and watch it. You could never say the same for WW.
And I even remember enjoying the original WW TV series when I was a child.
Ahhhhh you almost had it! You almost had it right until you said:
If a Star Wars film came out tomorrow, everyone would go and watch it.
No they wouldn't. Star Wars films viewership has been steadily declining (or in Solo's case massively disappointing) since TLJ. Why do you think so many Transformers films were made? Because they were great? I liked them but they were certainly not great. People still wanted to see those movies.

Yes people would go to see it, quite a lot of people would (assuming pre-pandemic here) but nowhere near what it was pre-TLJ.
 

rustyk21

Active Member
Ahhhhh you almost had it! You almost had it right until you said:

No they wouldn't. Star Wars films viewership has been steadily declining (or in Solo's case massively disappointing) since TLJ. Why do you think so many Transformers films were made? Because they were great? I liked them but they were certainly not great. People still wanted to see those movies.

Yes people would go to see it, quite a lot of people would (assuming pre-pandemic here) but nowhere near what it was pre-TLJ.

Nothing that I said was mutually exlusive. I actually think we agree, but you're just dissecting my posts to a slightly unnecesary degree.
For example, when I said 'everyone' would go and see it, it was a comparative term, not a literal one. And of course the the transformers films weren't great. For the purposes of this discussion I was using the viewing figures as just 'a' measure of what I've called 'love'.

The fact is, in my opinion, that there are orders of magnitudes more fans of Star Wars than there are of Wonder Woman and that bias is creeping into the review scores, as you'd expect.
That's the point I've been making right from the start. I'm not sure what point you thought I was making.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Nothing that I said was mutually exlusive. I actually think we agree, but you're just dissecting my posts to a slightly unnecesary degree.
For example, when I said 'everyone' would go and see it, it was a comparative term, not a literal one. And of course the the transformers films weren't great. For the purposes of this discussion I was using the viewing figures as just 'a' measure of what I've called 'love'.

The fact is, in my opinion, that there are orders of magnitudes more fans of Star Wars than there are of Wonder Woman and that bias is creeping into the review scores, as you'd expect.
That's the point I've been making right from the start. I'm not sure what point you thought I was making.
I think "everyone" knows that everyone doesn't actually mean every person on the planet and I'm surprised that you think I would be that literal. But "comparatively" speaking, a lot less people would go to see it in theatres than pre-TLJ which is what I was clarifying. Obviously we are still talking pre-pandemic here.

I do however agree with you on the in-built review bias. I'm sure you would agree that Star Wars (at least pre the Disney Disaster) has earned that love, whereas Wonder Woman as a character on the big screen (as much as many of us "loved" her in the comics etc) has not. So this was a chance to further cement that love for the character. The MCU has successfully done this with C and D list characters like Iron Man, Thor, Captain America and Black Widow. So much so that it even sounds strange to claim they were anything other than A-list characters.
 
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rustyk21

Active Member
I think "everyone" knows that everyone doesn't actually mean every person on the planet and I'm surprised that you think I would be that literal. But "comparatively" speaking, a lot less people would go to see it in theatres than pre-TLJ which is what I was clarifying. Obviously we are still talking pre-pandemic here.

Just on that point, of course I know that no-one in their right mind would take it literally. But like I said I was using the term as a blunt instrument to illustrate the size of the fan base. When you replied you seemed to think I was trying to equate box office figures with quality, which is patronising, a bit like when you said that I misunderstood my own point.

Anyway, I think we do actually agree on most things. Next time I'll make sure that I explain myself better :)
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
When you replied you seemed to think I was trying to equate box office figures with quality, which is patronising, a bit like when you said that I misunderstood my own point.
I wasn't equating anything with anything, at least I don't think I was. The misunderstanding of your point bit was me being a bit Monty Python.

One shall endeavour to appear less patronising in future communications.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
I tell you what, this thread has got some legs hasn't it :laugh:

I'm gone from looking forward to it to not looking forward to it, to looking forward to it again, just to see what the hell has gone on!
 

scrowe

Distinguished Member
I tell you what, this thread has got some legs hasn't it :laugh:

I'm gone from looking forward to it to not looking forward to it, to looking forward to it again, just to see what the hell has gone on!

It‘s because the first Wonder Woman was supposed to have been a massive shift in the right direction for the DCEU and Aquaman added to that, then after the misfire that was Birds of Prey, WW84 was expected to re-right the ship, and everyone was keen to see the promise of the trailer, 80s sensibilities, cool music, a lighter touch a la Ragnarok, plus the fact we’d been a bit starved of superhero escapism in comparison, so the fact it was a complete let-down is equally disappointing and frustrating, and a lot of us can’t believe how badly DC are wasting their characters and opportunities.

And if the latest rumour via Grace Randolph is true, it’s clear that they really haven’t a clue what they are doing :-

Flashpoint willl establish Michael Keaton as the elder/mentor Batman for the connected films, and will mentor/train Batgirl as a take on Batman Beyond, and be a Nick Fury-type character across the connected movies, with Pattinsons Batman being a separate standalone path as part of the multiverse concept. FlashPoint is written by, and no doubt willl write Batgirl Beyond, the writer of Birds of Prey, which means they are leaning into the sensibilities of completely reinventing the characters fir the movies, taking scant inspiration from the comics stories and characters. A real recipe for disaster in my opinion, why do they on any level think Birds of Prey was a success, such that they build upon that as a template on how to approach future films?
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
It‘s because the first Wonder Woman was supposed to have been a massive shift in the right direction for the DCEU and Aquaman added to that, then after the misfire that was Birds of Prey, WW84 was expected to re-right the ship, and everyone was keen to see the promise of the trailer, 80s sensibilities, cool music, a lighter touch a la Ragnarok, plus the fact we’d been a bit starved of superhero escapism in comparison, so the fact it was a complete let-down is equally disappointing and frustrating, and a lot of us can’t believe how badly DC are wasting their characters and opportunities.

And if the latest rumour via Grace Randolph is true, it’s clear that they really haven’t a clue what they are doing :-

Flashpoint willl establish Michael Keaton as the elder/mentor Batman for the connected films, and will mentor/train Batgirl as a take on Batman Beyond, and be a Nick Fury-type character across the connected movies, with Pattinsons Batman being a separate standalone path as part of the multiverse concept. FlashPoint is written by, and no doubt willl write Batgirl Beyond, the writer of Birds of Prey, which means they are leaning into the sensibilities of completely reinventing the characters fir the movies, taking scant inspiration from the comics stories and characters. A real recipe for disaster in my opinion, why do they on any level think Birds of Prey was a success, such that they build upon that as a template on how to approach future films?

I don't think I want to click that spoiler, but I'll take your word for it!
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
I don't think I want to click that spoiler, but I'll take your word for it!
Spoiler summary. 3 words.
1st word sounds like Turd but plural.
2nd word is a preposition.
3rd word is something you might want to start doing if DC is going to have any chance of getting out of this mess.
 

gavinhanly

Distinguished Member
Flashpoint willl establish Michael Keaton as the elder/mentor Batman for the connected films, and will mentor/train Batgirl as a take on Batman Beyond, and be a Nick Fury-type character across the connected movies, with Pattinsons Batman being a separate standalone path as part of the multiverse concept. FlashPoint is written by, and no doubt willl write Batgirl Beyond, the writer of Birds of Prey, which means they are leaning into the sensibilities of completely reinventing the characters fir the movies, taking scant inspiration from the comics stories and characters. A real recipe for disaster in my opinion, why do they on any level think Birds of Prey was a success, such that they build upon that as a template on how to approach future films?

Don't really have a problem with that outline, myself. Much of that is established in certain comics/cartoons anyway.

And as for the writer - she also did Bumblebee which was a success, I thought. I wouldn't necessarily expect Flashpoint to be something in the same vein as BOP given how different her last two movies were.
 

movieman1866

Well-known Member
I tell you what, this thread has got some legs hasn't it :laugh:

I'm gone from looking forward to it to not looking forward to it, to looking forward to it again, just to see what the hell has gone on!
There's more entertainment to be had reading this thread than actually watching WW84.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Don't really have a problem with that outline, myself. Much of that is established in certain comics/cartoons anyway.

And as for the writer - she also did Bumblebee which was a success, I thought. I wouldn't necessarily expect Flashpoint to be something in the same vein as BOP given how different her last two movies were.
You outline Grace reporting, but not her opinions so here they are.

Grace (who is the ultimate yay Girl Power rep) is extremely unhappy with them deliberately gender swaping a main character
essentially removing Batman from Earth
So what makes you so confident?

To loosely quote Grace, DC has given the writer of BoP and a film which didn't make much money the writing responsibilities for DC's centrepiece and TWO other properties. You are happy with this when even Grace isnt?

Why would you give the central piece of the DCEU future
Flashpoint
to someone who has shown a complete lack of understanding and appreciation for any of the DC characters? Grace doesn't know either.

The only actual comics person they have working for them is Geof Johns who has for the most part failed and is now persona non grata ala Joss Whedon.

So with no one who understands these characters or their story lines in charge or available, when even those who want more women involved says this looks like a bad idea, when she also says that fans should complain from now (before most of this is even properly outlined). What makes you think that the DCEU can pull any of this off?
 
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gavinhanly

Distinguished Member
OK - this is going a little off topic but...

@Coulson I've been reading DC comics for decades and the characters within have shifted and changed multiple times with multiple Batmen, Batgirls, Batwomen etc within that time. Unlike the earlier cross reference with Star Wars, there is no set "this is how the character should be" (and that also goes the same for Marvel - but they don't make as drastic changes as DC IMO).

I also don't care what this Grace thinks. I have my own extensive knowledge (if only it were on something more useful - like engineering or chemistry!!) Based on that - the proposed use of Keaton mentoring Batgirl both remains true to the spirit of the comics/animation while potentially adding its own spin.

Also - marvel didn't have a "comics person" working for them at the beginning in the MCU (in fact they had to work really hard to shake off that yoke to allow them to take over the TV side). Hasn't done them any harm.

Also, re Batman, I think that having Keaton as the DCU Batman and Pattinson as the standalone version is essentially a having cake and eating it approach for me. Happy with that.

Finally, I liked Bumblebee, I liked many parts of Birds of Prey while appreciating they went extreme with the characters and vibe. I don't think that directorial approach will be taken by Andy Muschetti, so I'm expecting a more grounded approach to Flashpoint.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
OK - this is going a little off topic but...

@Coulson I've been reading DC comics for decades and the characters within have shifted and changed multiple times with multiple Batmen, Batgirls, Batwomen etc within that time. Unlike the earlier cross reference with Star Wars, there is no set "this is how the character should be" (and that also goes the same for Marvel - but they don't make as drastic changes as DC IMO).

I also don't care what this Grace thinks. I have my own extensive knowledge (if only it were on something more useful - like engineering or chemistry!!) Based on that - the proposed use of Keaton mentoring Batgirl both remains true to the spirit of the comics/animation while potentially adding its own spin.

Also - marvel didn't have a "comics person" working for them at the beginning in the MCU (in fact they had to work really hard to shake off that yoke to allow them to take over the TV side). Hasn't done them any harm.

Also, re Batman, I think that having Keaton as the DCU Batman and Pattinson as the standalone version is essentially a having cake and eating it approach for me. Happy with that.

Finally, I liked Bumblebee, I liked many parts of Birds of Prey while appreciating they went extreme with the characters and vibe. I don't think that directorial approach will be taken by Andy Muschetti, so I'm expecting a more grounded approach to Flashpoint.
First. Your experience is noted :) That changes my perception of this conversation even it doesn't change the content.

Second. You liking Bumblebee is irrelevant to the fact that it didn't make money. I liked bits of BoP too, it was still a crap film, but more importantly it lost a crap load of money. The writer responsible for both is now a key writer in the upcoming future of the DCEU.

Finally gender swapping of well know characters is at best a 60/40 proposition against. It doesn't work in general because the writers who propose these things are not very talented. As such their ideas revolve around the agenda, not the story. Starbuck in new BSG is one of the rare exceptions. Has DC ever produced anything of similar quality to the first two seasons of new BSG? That is of course a rhetorical question.

So here is the bottom line. Repeating the same thing and expecting a different result is the very definition of stupidity.

We are the DCEU. We are stupid incarnate!
 

evangelion

Active Member
Finally gender swapping of well know characters is at best a 60/40 proposition against. It doesn't work in general because the writers who propose these things are not very talented. As such their ideas revolve around the agenda, not the story. Starbuck in new BSG is one of the rare exceptions.
Along with Robin in Frank Millers Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, which to my mind was a stroke of genius. Other than that, I totally agree :thumbsup:
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Right - moving this to the Flash thread where it's more relevant..!
Didn't know there was one. I really just got sucked into this convo because I hate what they are doing. There really isn't much more to say. So to bring this back on topic, WW84 is crap. If you like it then cool. We all like a crap film or two. Why the future of the DCEU is relevant to this conversation is because WW84 was supposed to be the next gen saviour, just like WW2017 was previously. Now that we've seen it, it just looks like more of the same. Whether a few people like it or not, it's still a failure.
Along with Robin in Frank Millers Batman: The Dark Knight Returns, which to my mind was a stroke of genius. Other than that, I totally agree :thumbsup:
I think I've heard about that. Considering how well that comic was received and it was Frank Miller writing I can easily believe that this incarnation of Robin would be great.
 
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evangelion

Active Member
Personally I don't think it's crap, I think it's way beyond that.
It's an insult to the audiences intelligence, you, me, whoever gets suckered into watching it.

There are dozens upon dozens upon hundreds of Movies that have managed to hit hugely diverse audiences spanning all age groups, without being the least bit condescending, belittling or unfaithful to them, or the source material.

So why didn't WW1984? It's not worthy of an 8 year olds time, much less mine or anyone elses. The reason it fails is because Patty Jenkins got so pumped up on her own hype, that she thought she could write/direct and produce the damned thing. Instead of playing to her (limited, IMO) strengths.

Oh and Gadot can't act, she might look great as WW, but that's it.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
Personally I don't think it's crap, I think it's way beyond that.
It's an insult to the audiences intelligence, you, me, whoever gets suckered into watching it.

There are dozens upon dozens upon hundreds of Movies that have managed to hit hugely diverse audiences spanning all age groups, without being the least bit condescending, belittling or unfaithful to them, or the source material.

So why didn't WW1984? It's not worthy of an 8 year olds time, much less mine or anyone elses. The reason it fails is because Patty Jenkins got so pumped up on her own hype, that she thought she could write/direct and produce the damned thing. Instead of playing to her (limited, IMO) strengths.

Oh and Gadot can't act, she might look great as WW, but that's it.
That's pretty much spot on. It turns out the WW2017 was already written and set-up ready to go with another director. So when Patty replaced that director, all she had to do was come in and join the dots. This is that rare movie where you are both disappointed and angry at the same time. I liked Pedro Pascal but Wiig was just playing herself. You can get away with that if you have the charisma of a Sean Connery, Jeff Goldblum or Dwayne Johnson. After seeing some of Adrienne Palicky's WW TV show pilot (God that is awful) I think that Gal Gadot does a decent enough job as WW.
 

gavinhanly

Distinguished Member
It turns out the WW2017 was already written and set-up ready to go with another director. So when Patty replaced that director, all she had to do was come in and join the dots.

That is simply not the case at all.


From the above.

Jenkins also shed light on why she was initially hired for Wonder Woman before leaving the project for a time, opening up room for director Michelle McClaren to get hired while Jenkins pursued Thor: The Dark World, a job that ultimately didn't pan out. She shared, "Finally, the moment came [when Warners wanted me to make the film] and there was a moment they wanted to make a story that I wasn’t the right person for, so I [left and] said, 'It can’t be me,' and they hired someone else [MacClaren] for a little bit. I told them what kind of film I wanted to make. I said, 'I don’t think this is the story you should tell with Wonder Woman,' and I didn’t want to be the one to get in a fight about it for years."

During the period of time Jenkins left Wonder Woman the first time and later came back, she got a sinking feeling about Warner Bros. not having complete faith in the potential success of the movie. She told Maron, "During that period of time, there were so many scripts, I could see the writing on the wall. The was an internal war on every level about what Wonder Woman should be."

Jenkins went on to explain how things finally smoothed over to the point that some actual progress could be made on the movie. Per Jenkins, Warner Bros. eventually came back to her after McClaren left — "Actually, do you wanna make it your way?" — and, as the director notes, "Boom, I just made the movie."
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
That is simply not the case at all.


From the above.

Jenkins also shed light on why she was initially hired for Wonder Woman before leaving the project for a time, opening up room for director Michelle McClaren to get hired while Jenkins pursued Thor: The Dark World, a job that ultimately didn't pan out. She shared, "Finally, the moment came [when Warners wanted me to make the film] and there was a moment they wanted to make a story that I wasn’t the right person for, so I [left and] said, 'It can’t be me,' and they hired someone else [MacClaren] for a little bit. I told them what kind of film I wanted to make. I said, 'I don’t think this is the story you should tell with Wonder Woman,' and I didn’t want to be the one to get in a fight about it for years."

During the period of time Jenkins left Wonder Woman the first time and later came back, she got a sinking feeling about Warner Bros. not having complete faith in the potential success of the movie. She told Maron, "During that period of time, there were so many scripts, I could see the writing on the wall. The was an internal war on every level about what Wonder Woman should be."

Jenkins went on to explain how things finally smoothed over to the point that some actual progress could be made on the movie. Per Jenkins, Warner Bros. eventually came back to her after McClaren left — "Actually, do you wanna make it your way?" — and, as the director notes, "Boom, I just made the movie."
"During that period of time, there were so many scripts, I could see the writing on the wall. The was an internal war on every level about what Wonder Woman should be."
Did she write the movie or even get a screenplay credit? No.

So she didn't write and she wasn't involved majorly in setting it up
as the director notes, "Boom, I just made the movie."
Exactly this ^^^

So what is so different that what we already know?

Even if you still don't understand what I am saying, doesn't the results speak for themselves?

You like the film. Cool! You are in a minority that doesn't think it's at best disappointing and at worst severely problematic. Fine! But nothing that has been said negatively about this film has been unfair or misunderstood. That's what is so unusual about this film, you can literally go on for days with one issue after another. Almost every new review has brought up a new issue. This is as I said RoTJ bad with TLJ divisiveness.
 
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gavinhanly

Distinguished Member
I think the idea of a directors job to be to "come in and join the dots" is something that completely overlooks what the job entails. It's not something I've seen on many threads in this forum.

It's all starting to feel a bit personal, TBH. Think a few deep breaths and stepping back might be in order.
 

Coulson

Distinguished Member
I think the idea of a directors job to be to "come in and join the dots" is something that completely overlooks what the job entails. It's not something I've seen on many threads in this forum.

It's all starting to feel a bit personal, TBH. Think a few deep breaths and stepping back might be in order.
So completely avoid the discussion points and focus in on the bit you think you have something with lol. You're funny lol.

Let's leave this. Perhaps in 30 years time, WW84 will be deemed to be a classic. If I'm still around then I will admit my mistake.
 

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