Will you install the NHS COVID-19 track and trace app on your Smartphone?

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
The 'professionals' doing this didn't even check if Bluetooth could be used to check distance.
The moment I (one amongst thousands if not more) saw they were selling that it was obvious.
And yes, I have done measurement of wireless systems e.g mobile base stations.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
Don't mind either that we've just chucked a few million down the swanny. Could have paid for Rashford's dinners that without any fuss.
Why look after the poorest in the country when there are hard done by corporates that need bonuses for 3 months’ work?
 

iangreasby

Well-known Member
The 'professionals' doing this didn't even check if Bluetooth could be used to check distance.
The moment I (one amongst thousands if not more) saw they were selling that it was obvious.
And yes, I have done measurement of wireless systems e.g mobile base stations.
I know next to nothing about bluetooth, but my first question was how accurate would it be regarding distance.
 

maddy

Well-known Member
it’s a fundamental function of the underlying OS which restricts access to the BLE function in the background, as was clearly stated several months ago when NHSX first announced they were going their own way with their app. The Isle of Wight trial was evidently not as successful as hoped (have we heard anything about the outcome of it?) and now the Government are announcing a u-turn, back to the original solution propose by Apple/Google earlier this year.
This (below) is more what I was thinking of; not the protocol used but rather whether it's actually a usable mechanism to measure anything anyway
The 'professionals' doing this didn't even check if Bluetooth could be used to check distance.
The moment I (one amongst thousands if not more) saw they were selling that it was obvious.
And yes, I have done measurement of wireless systems e.g mobile base stations.
 

iangreasby

Well-known Member
Not sure why there's even any argument over this to be honest. It speaks for itself.

For the last month we've heard how our system was going to be world beating, and how there was no interest whatsoever in pursuing an Apple/Google app. There was literally no need.

Now after that briefing it turns out we were indeed "always" looking into both avenues. Yet it's taken them this long to realise their avenue was a fools errand so now we'll go with what we should have in the first place.

Not like there's any rush for this is there....

Don't mind either that we've just chucked a few million down the swanny. Could have paid for Rashford's dinners that without any fuss.

U-turn is the new government buzz word.
Are you suggesting he eats too much? :D
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
Are you suggesting he eats too much? :D
I see what you did there :laugh:

Why look after the poorest in the country when there are hard done by corporates that need bonuses for 3 months’ work?
Now you're just being nasty to those poor corporates :D

It's almost like....just almost mind....when they announced Dido Harding would be heading things up, you just got a little inkling things weren't going to work out.

For the life of me can't think why though....

201.gif
 

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
I know next to nothing about bluetooth, but my first question was how accurate would it be regarding distance.
Basically measuring distance was never a requirement, being able to use low power and reach a reasonable distance.
The other thing is that phones are flat which dictates the performance of the antennae varies with direction in unpredictable ways depending on the environment - and the model of phone.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
This (below) is more what I was thinking of; not the protocol used but rather whether it's actually a usable mechanism to measure anything anyway
Standard range for BLE is up to maximum 400m so, if anything, it will over report (although normal range in built up areas/indoors will be shorter). However, over-reporting is arguably better (medically at least) than under reporting/contacting as we’re currently seeing with the reliance on Covid-positive patients trying to remember and share who they’ve been in contact with.

The underlying problem isn’t the technology, it’s the decision to clearly go against most other countries’ ideas and develop our own solution, whilst clearly knowing that the functionality couldn’t be accessed in the background. As a result, the decision makers have now wasted another 3 months, even before developing another solution, using the existing technology available.
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
it’s the decision to clearly go against most other countries’ ideas and develop our own solution, whilst clearly knowing that the functionality couldn’t be accessed in the background. As a result, the decision makers have now wasted another 3 months, even before developing another solution, using the existing technology available.
Sums it up nicely.

It's not like the app is something mediocre either, it could really help. Especially with the vulnerable. I remember what the government said about it not so long back. As probably does everyone.
 

IronGiant

Moderator
Not sure why there's even any argument over this to be honest. It speaks for itself.

For the last month we've heard how our system was going to be world beating, and how there was no interest whatsoever in pursuing an Apple/Google app. There was literally no need.

Now after that briefing it turns out we were indeed "always" looking into both avenues. Yet it's taken them this long to realise their avenue was a fools errand so now we'll go with what we should have in the first place.

Not like there's any rush for this is there....

Don't mind either that we've just chucked a few million down the swanny. Could have paid for Rashford's dinners that without any fuss.

U-turn is the new government buzz word.
It's better than that, they are going to combine the best elements of both approaches :facepalm:
 

IronGiant

Moderator
More likely they'll test the Apple back end with their front end and it won't work, Then test their back end with the Apple front end and it won't work,. Then they'll put the Apple back and front end together and announce they have found the best combination. :D
 

maddy

Well-known Member
More likely they'll test the Apple back end with their front end and it won't work, Then test their back end with the Apple front end and it won't work,. Then they'll put the Apple back and front end together and announce they have found the best combination. :D
err... isn't the point of a decentralised app that there isn't a back end?
 

richp007

Distinguished Member
More likely they'll test the Apple back end with their front end and it won't work, Then test their back end with the Apple front end and it won't work,. Then they'll put the Apple back and front end together and announce they have found the best combination. :D
So many potential jokes there about "back ends", but I'm going to let them all go :D
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
err... isn't the point of a decentralised app that there isn't a back end?
Even a decentralised app has a backend. The only difference is that contact data is only uploaded (to the backend) by the Apple/Google app after the user has a positive test and acknowledges the upload. With the failed NHSX app, all contact data would automatically be uploaded to the backend immediately, regardless of a positive test or not, hence the security concerns (even more so when the official documentation stated that NHSX would keep the contact data for 20 years in the event of a positive test, and 5 years even without a positive test!).
 
Even a decentralised app has a backend. The only difference is that contact data is only uploaded (to the backend) by the Apple/Google app after the user has a positive test and acknowledges the upload. With the failed NHSX app, all contact data would automatically be uploaded to the backend immediately, regardless of a positive test or not, hence the security concerns (even more so when the official documentation stated that NHSX would keep the contact data for 20 years in the event of a positive test, and 5 years even without a positive test!).
No, it really has not, if it has then it wasn't a decentralised app in the first place :lesson:
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
No, it really has not, if it has then it wasn't a decentralised app in the first place :lesson:
In the context of the “decentralised” track and trace app, it has a backend. Where else do you think the contact information is uploaded to, in the event of a positive test, to allow for tracing and analysis of regional hotspots?

As an example from blockchain dApp;

What is a dApp? Decentralized Application on the Blockchain

"The frontend of a decentralized application represents what you see, and the backend represents the entire business logic."

In contrast, a "centralised" application is one which only runs on a single central computer (e.g a local installation of MS-Office on your own PC, compared to a cloud instance of Office 365).
 
Last edited:
In the context of the “decentralised” track and trace app, it has a backend. Where else do you think the contact information is uploaded to, in the event of a positive test, to allow for tracing and analysis of regional hotspots?

As an example from blockchain dApp;

What is a dApp? Decentralized Application on the Blockchain

"The frontend of a decentralized application represents what you see, and the backend represents the entire business logic."

In contrast, a "centralised" application is one which only runs on a single central computer (e.g a local installation of MS-Office on your own PC, compared to a cloud instance of Office 365).
As I said, it then wasn’t a decentralised application in the first place.

I don’t want to turn this into an IT lesson but that article is an oversimplification by drawing parallels with traditional applications.
 

weaviemx5

Distinguished Member
As I said, it then wasn’t a decentralised application in the first place.

I don’t want to turn this into an IT lesson but that article is an oversimplification by drawing parallels with traditional applications.
It’s a decentralised “application”, meaning it’s not installed centrally on a single instance, but instead is installed ‘decentrally’ on multiple devices.
 

Tight Git

Distinguished Member
Is it a coincidence that the announcement that the "World Beating" Tracing App was going to be ditched came on the day that Vera Lynn passed away, so this morning's newspapers were headlining the latter?

Or perhaps I'm just becoming cynical in my old age...
 

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