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Will this system kick or what????

Discussion in 'Home Cinema Speakers' started by faldain, Sep 18, 2005.

  1. faldain

    faldain
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    Please give me your insight oh wonderful world of avforum gurus!
    I am building as we speak and looking for a 7.1 surround system. My room is 20'x24'x10', and it should have relatively good acoustics due to care being taken during construction. My main concern is excellent surround sound- I will only be using the stereo about 10% of the time. I had made up my mind to buy Orbaudio speakers, but have been considering getting fullsize speakers- I am looking at Paradigm and the Morduant Short Avant series with towers for the front 2 and surrounds for the sides and rears and a center channel- combined with a subwoofer - i was thinking Velodyne but not sure. For recievers I am pretty much locked onto two receivers- the Yamaha RX-V1500 (is THX that much better), and the Denon AVR-3805. PLEASE let me know what you think- I have never had a home stereo setup EVER- and want to get it right the first time!!!!
     
  2. Dankeech

    Dankeech
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    Faldain,
    I've only had a couple of systems myself, and depends how much you want to spend.
    Bang for buck and sound quality for under £1000, I'd say the Acoustic Energy Evo 7.1 Package has to be auditioned. Will cost you £800 to £1000 and certainly has some serious kick to it.
    What hifi voted the 5.1 package as best package under £1000. Also front speakers were recommended in at least one review as best speaker pair under £500.

    Take a look here:

    http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo-1.cfm/Product_ID/1555

    I have the 5.1 package myself (well, sub is on it's way).

    You will need a 7.1 AV Reciever Amp, and majority of these are 5.1, so make sure it has 7.1 speaker outputs if you are thinking of 7.1 speakers

    The rest of the guys can lkely give you better advice on a wider range of kit, but I have forked out less than £500 on the 5 speakers (not yet spent on the sub) and running on a NAD T753 (also £500) and am ecstatic as it sounds incredible even if it were twice the price plus it certainly has the rumble I need.

    Seriously, audition the package at least.

    Sevenoakssoundandvision.co.uk is where I got mine and I visited local store etc.

    If these are in your price range, audition them

    Regards,

    Dan.

     
  3. petarst

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    Hi ,

    Go for Monitor Audio silver series and NAD T773 you will be extremely happy with it !
     
  4. nsherin

    nsherin
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    The NAD should also do a good job with music too - certainly it's what I'd recommend if you want to multi-channel, but have good music performanc.
     
  5. Helicon

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    Not sure about your budget, so i'll make some assumptions :)

    If you're watching mainly films with the ocassional music, it can be narrowed down quite heavily.

    Either of the amps will do a great job. There won't be a vast amount between the Yamaha and Denon amps, so the difference in cost you could put towards speakers, or get an RXV-2500.

    Speakerwise, you don't need floorstanders or large speakers for an av system. There are many sub/sat speaker packs around like the new B&W's which are great, but if you can stretch to an M&K K-series package, it'll wipe the floor with most 'hi-fi' speakers when it comes to films and will fill large rooms quite easily. You could go for 5 K-5s and a KX-9 sub, costing around £1250. A little more, but well worth it, even if you leave the surrounds for now and just get the front 3 and sub to get you going. You'll also have the option of the K-4 tripole for a much more expansive rear soundfield. Plus, the M&K's will work well with the THX settings of the Yamaha, a bonus if you like your films near cinema levels, but if you listen at low to average volumes i wouldn't recommend THX.

    And they're not bad for music :)
     
  6. Thunder

    Thunder
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    I'd have to disagree with that
     
  7. Helicon

    Helicon
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    I too, must disagree with you.....

    Having done an A/B comparison of B&W DM703 / DS7 / HTM7 / ASW-750 (getting on for £5K's worth!) against M&K LCR750 / CS-29 / MX-350 (£4k's worth), the M&K's won hands down. Everybody who heard it agreed. There was a distinct lasck of detail and coherence that the M&K's had, mainly due to the fronts not producing too much in the lower registers, which is where floorstanders fall down.

    Are we forgetting that most film mastering studios use sub/sat systems?!! And usually M&K (amongst others)!!

    I'm not having a pop at people with floortsanders in their system, but there are plain reasons why somethings work better than others. The more the main speakers produce in the way of the lower registers, the more it clouds the detail and dynamics they're supposed to be producing. I know, i used to have Kef Reference 4.2 and 200c (£5k's worth), and the M&K LCR150's i have now (at £2600) outperform them for movies. I am a hi-fi fanatic, but hi-fi speakers are not the best for movies. Maybe at the lower end of the market, but not when you get to a certain point.

    But then, what do i know? I'm a retailer......
     
  8. SBanga

    SBanga
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    I have to agree with Thunder. I have yet to hear a sub/sat system with the clarity of midrange that a full sized speaker set up offers. All small satellites I have heard, tail off before 80Hz leaving a hole in sound. Yes, floorstanders are a little excessive for home cinema, but they suit people well who don't have the space for a separate hifi setup and want to listen to two channel music through their receiver.
    Helicon, I thought most professional studios implemented Genelec speaker systems. Maybe I read wrong though!! The M&K systems I have heard are way too harsh and directly bombard you with sounds, rather than enveloping you in a surround field. The subs also had to deal with way too much information; I could hear low pitched voices coming from the sub in the corner :thumbsdow Then again, I haven't heard the specific system you mention which is a little more expensive than the ones I have heard.
     
  9. Helicon

    Helicon
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    Well, if you've heard an M&K system using tripole rears and didn't think you were "enveloped", then maybe you need some cotton buds...either that or the systems you heard were not set up correctly. I've never heard any part of voices coming from the sub. True, the M&K subs are designed to be able to deal with some of the bass other subs aren't designed to, but we're only talking about up to 120-130 Hz to help smaller satellites. After the M&K systems i've heard, i realise now where my Kef Reference setup was lacking. Floorstanders are not the best way to go about an av system unless it's mainly going to be used for music.

    I have even compared the M&K850's against the B&W setup, and again, the midrange detail and impact outperformed the B&W 700 series.

    Of course small satellites tail off by 80Hz! They don't have the cabinet volume or bass driver to deal with it! That gives them the possibility of sounding better then floorstanders as they're not trying to produce loads of bass and clouding the signal. The less a speaker has to deal with, the better it can reproduce it. Leave as much to the sub as possible, the satallites will sound better. If you can hear where 100Hz signals are coming from, then you have a much better ear than me!
    But then, anyone with floorstanders in an av system will have that point of view. I have owned both, and i'm sharing my experience to help the rest of you. :)

    Don't forget, i'm not talking cheap satellites, i'm talking about decent ones, setups costing around £1500-2000 which is the starting point for a decently designed and built sub/sat setup. Virtually every M&K K-series and Xenon setup we have demonstrated have been purchased there and then by the customer. They're that good.
     
  10. SBanga

    SBanga
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    The point I'm trying to make is that for home cinema, you wouldn't run the floorstanders with a full range signal. They would cut off at a preset point and hand over to the sub. In my opinion, a speaker reaching its limit of extension won't have as seamless a hand over as a speaker just getting into its stride. This is where I'm saying sub/sat systems are not as good as full range speaker systems.
    Having full range speakers will then benefit you in 2 channel mode as you can then turn the sub off and use just the front 2 in pure direct mode.
    But we'll agree to disagree here :thumbsup:
     
  11. Helicon

    Helicon
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    I'm talking purely from a home cinema point of view. Speakers generally sound better when they're being pushed, rather than cruising. It doesn't matter whether a speaker 'hits it's extension' or not, the sub is designed to take over from that point. I agree it shouldn't be too high, but M&K systems are designed to do just that, and they do it extremely well.
    The whole THX thing comes alive at 0db, the reference point.Even a few db below, it doesn't sound as good as it should as it is mixed at 0db. Also, hi-fi speakers, even if you roll the bass off early, have a different tone to studio monitors, making them inferior for home cinema use.
    As i've said before, i went from £4k floorstanders to £900 satellites.....no contest.
    I will say one thing.....at hi-fi shows, why is it always M&K's room that is talked about for sound? Very few others do.....
     
  12. SBanga

    SBanga
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    Like I said, we'll agree to disagree. I think our uses for our home cinema setup also differ. I'm sure you are right on many points as you seem very experienced, but I don't think this thread is aimed at such an expensive set up.
    Faldain, what is your budget and do you have a separate system for stereo music playback?
     
  13. Smurfin

    Smurfin
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    Completely disagree there, speakers being pushed introduces all sorts of problems, distortion and a strident sound being 2 examples.

    Where on earth did you get that from? THX processing is applicable regardless of volume. Granted, the louder the playback the more "obvious" the differences become (mainly - in my experience - with tailing off the top end). If you can listen to everything @ 0db on a calibrated M&K system then I pity your ears:) A few db lower doesn't make it "sound worse".

    A gross generalisation and wholly inaccurate. I've heard some stunning home cinema setups that are used with "hi-fi" speakers.

    By no means am I knocking M&K....I've owned 2 different M&K setups in the past (S85s and the MPS1610s) and listened at length to the 850 series, K series, S-150 range and their big powered monitors...I really do rate them. But your arguments above are flawed.

    cheers
    Matt
     
  14. Helicon

    Helicon
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    Most speakers don't sound great when they're at low to medium volumes...they sound better when they're pushed harder, M&K included. Well designed speakers won't introduce the problems you're talking about, cheap ones not worht their salt will.
     
  15. Helicon

    Helicon
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    I never said THX processing was innaplicable at anything but 0db - i'm saying as it's mixed at 0db, it will, and does, sound better at 0db. And even a few db's lower then 0 doesn't sound quite right. It just comes alive at 0db.
    And if you're going to use speech marks and "quote" me, at least quote my actual words...i said "doesn't sound as good", not "sounds worse".
     
  16. Helicon

    Helicon
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    I too have heard some good cinema set ups using 'hi-fi' speakers, i used to own one! I'm not debating that! I'm just saying that they don't seem to compete with sub/sat systems (mainly M&K) purely for movies. Not inaccurate.
    After hearing the difference between what i had and what i have, there's no turning back for me.
     
  17. Knyght_byte

    Knyght_byte
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    i have floorstanders, some movies i play around and cut them so they are acting as satellites, other movies i let them do their thing.......thats the joy of using decent priced equipment, you have the option...lol

    any film with lots of music in is nice to have floorstanders i find.....if there isnt so much music it can, depending on the rest of the films sound, pay to use the floorstanders as satellites on stands (like some of the higher end M&K setups). At least this way when you do listen to music from a CD/DVD-A/SACD/whatever it sounds better, satellites do not do justice to music the way a floorstander does.....

    oh, and the more expensive M&K type satellites are not really satellites, they are more like small bookshelf speakers......
     
  18. Smurfin

    Smurfin
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but 90% of M&Ks range of speakers - including their expensive powered ones - rolloff at 80hz, so in that respect even the expensive ones are satellites.

    Of course that also depends on your definition of "satellite" and "bookshelf":)
     
  19. Helicon

    Helicon
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    Apart from a couple of models, as Smurfin states, M&K speakers are designed to be satellites, to cut off at 80Hz - it's the whole M&K philosophy.

    Speaking from an AV(not hi-fi) point of view again, for those who fail to read this little part of my statements, the M&K satellites outperform more expensive floorstanders from 'hi-fi' manufacturers. Tell George Lucas he's wrong!!

    A cinema doesn't use a full range speaker. It uses satellites and subwoofers. Films are also mastered on sub/sat systems.

    Again, i will say that there is nothing wrong with floorstanders in an AV system, they just won't perform like a good sub/sat system.

    And for those that think i'm talking thousands, M&K systems start from £1250.
     
  20. avanzato

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    That'll be those satellite speakers that use 15"-18" drivers, horn mids and tweeters and have a frequency range from 30hz to 20k... Hmmm :rolleyes: Oh and they're the size of a small wardrobe.
    Martin Audio
    JBL Pro
    Richard Allan
     
  21. Helicon

    Helicon
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    Of course....THX cinemas ignore the 80Hz crossover requirement......
     
  22. Triggaaar

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    Wow, this thread has kicked off

    Your room size can certainly take advantage of 7.1, but it does depend on the size of your budget - which is how much? (ie, a small budget spread over 7.1 speakers and amplification may not sound as good as if it were spread over 5.1)

    I see there has been some disagreement regarding sats or full speakers on this thread, which probably doesn't help when you're new to AV. I don't fancy arguing about this, but will throw in my 2p.
    Firstly, I would advise against 2 towers with a surround for the centre, as matching the front 3 speakers is important - they don't have to be identical, but you should try to match their tonal qualities, because most sound comes from the front 3 speakers, and often the same sound is coming from the centre and another front speaker at the same time.
    Satellite speakers cover a huge range, from tiny lifestyle speakers, to large standmount speakers, which just aren't full range. There is a big difference between the 2. Personally, I don't like the sound given from the tiny range (eg kef eggs - no offence to their huge following). But larger speakers (stand mounts) that are used as Sats (eg 80Hz and higher) are IMO perfect for movies.

    No, THX is not necessarily better. Manufacturers have to pay a large amount to have their system tested for THX, and then have to pay a license fee. This can often lead to them making improvements to their system in order to reach THX standards, but not always. When you buy something that is THX certified, part of your budget is paying for it. Many systems aren't put forward for THX certification, but they would pass if they were.
     

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