Will HD improve action scenes?

Discussion in 'Satellite TV, Sky TV & FreeSat' started by bitofatit, Mar 26, 2006.

  1. bitofatit

    bitofatit
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    Am I alone in being only "Whelmed" when (say) watching footie and the action follows the ball across the screen and all of the players and crowd are subject to "bluriness"? I never used to get this on my CRT TV. Don't get me wrong very happy with the PQ when the action is slow etc.
    Question is, will this improve with HD or will scences that quickly pan from one side to the other still mean there is a level of less than crisp pics? I have a Sharp Aquos LCD.
     
  2. docjan_uk

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    Well there are a few factors in this.
    1) Your Aquos with quickshoot on would be one of the better LCD's when it comes to response times.
    2) if you spin round and round, you'll notice that fast movement naturally leads to blurring anyway, this is quite separate from ghosting which is based on response times.
    3) A bigger screen will naturally amplify this effect since theres a greater distance for the ghosting to effect/the natural blurring will appear larger and be more noticeable.

    I doubt HD will impact any of this really, maybe the greater clarity will "appear" to improve it a little.
     
  3. Howard Pitfield

    Howard Pitfield
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    Watched some Euro 2004 footage in hi-def on HD-1 channel. The close-ups and crowd shots look brilliant - but fast track shots look as normal - whizzy! The shots of pitch look great - all the players look sharp. Slow tracking is good too - all this at 1080i though.

    I would like to see some 720p footage as it is said this is better for sports action....

    H
     
  4. bitofatit

    bitofatit
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    Thx guys, fairly re-assuring. Maybe if i moved quickly the same way as the panning it might help? Probably not!
    Regards
     
  5. sweezely

    sweezely
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    Football in 720p should be wonderful.
     
  6. choddo2006

    choddo2006
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    Except Sky are going to use 1080i (unfortunately imho)
     
  7. mark800

    mark800
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    No they are not! Sky will use 720p for sports and 1080i for films (from another thread).

    You tend to get motion problems showing 576i SD on progressive scan devices (e.g. LCDs and Plasma) due to the de-interlacing process. Motion with 720p material will look much smoother than watching 576i SD material.
     
  8. choddo2006

    choddo2006
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    Do you have a link to that? I'd quite like to show it to the guy who (claims to) work on the video broadcast chain at Sky who told me it's going to be 1080i and see his reaction.

    Is it this? The digitalspy interview?
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311457&highlight=1080i+sport

    If so, it just says the consensus (which I subscribe to) is that 720p is better for sport. Doesn't say Sky are going to use it, or am I missing something?
     
  9. mark800

    mark800
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    I've seen that one and another- but sorry I don't know where/when :(

    1080i (25Hz) looks best with film because film is only 24Hz anyway (converted to 25Hz) so you would not get any motion benefit from going to 720p/50Hz.

    However, I think there is a strong case for going 720p on sports, so I would be very surprised if they didn't.
     
  10. andypearce

    andypearce
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    I think the panel you are watching it on is the main factor. I wasn't prepared to switch over to plasma or lcd technology until I found a set that handled football in an acceptable fashion (as good as my 36" Panasonic CRT was the benchmark.) At the time I was looking I couldn't find an LCD set that did the job for me but the Panny 42PV500 did. Football is great for me (I assume you are watching it on Sky) so it must be the panel.

    720p should make this better in theory - I've also read (not on DigitalSpy) that this will be used for sports - it was in the Sky powerpoint presentation to the installers IIRC.
     
  11. chillo

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    Are you referring to 'blockyness' if there is a lot of detail on screen?
    eg football crowd? jungle/forest in i'm a celebrity get me out here etc?

    that is down to bit rate! I think you will be ok with hd but not 100%
    anyone confirm it:confused:
     
  12. shaithis

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    I get blockyness and huge jaggies on the pitch markings, these are due to the poor sky picture and low bitrates.....

    These are the things I expect HD to resolve....if you get bluring on moving scenes, I fear that is down to the responce times of your LCD.

    I never have really gotten any blurring on either plasma I own.
     
  13. al5000

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    Blockyness and huge jaggies are evident on the plasma i got.Watching snooker few weeks back on some camera angles the cue ball was not perfectly round,it definitely had what is called jaggies.I also find scrolling text to be unreadable at times,never noticed these things on a crt screen before.Fast rolling scenes too are blurry.I found when i owned a lcd tv things were far worse.So i am now stuck with a plasma.
     
  14. Geordie Bry

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    sport will be 720p and apparently we will have the option of setting box to output 720 p 1080i or selecting auto
     
  15. Mike_CA

    Mike_CA
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    Generally you don't see any difference between watching 720p or 1080i during sports. Generally you have problems if the bitrate is too low. I've been watching sports in the US for the last year at both 720p and 1080i and have not seen any difference. The only problems I experienced was during the first several days of broadcasting of the winter olympics. During that time, the network was having problems getting the bitrate up. Each day, the network brought the bitrate up a little more and the picture became better. After a week, everything was solved.

    Generally you can tell if it is a bitrate problem by recording it to the DVR and then playing it back in slow motion. If pixelization occurs, it is a bitrate problem.

    Bitrate, lighting, quality of camera, and camera work is much more important than whether you are watching in 720p or 1080i.
     
  16. choddo2006

    choddo2006
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    Which plasma is that?
     
  17. choddo2006

    choddo2006
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    Do you have a source for that? I really hope you're right.

    (it's not in the PPT by the way)
     
  18. Rimmer

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    When you say you didn't see any difference between sport @720p or @1080i what kind of TV were you viewing it on?
     
  19. Pebb

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    24 will surly just get even better when it is screened in HD on Sky One HD buds.
     
  20. Ploppy

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    please can you clarify for me. when you say 25hz do you mean 25 frames per second. I thought all uk electrical appliances ran at 50hz.
    Sorry if this sounds dumb but I am trying to get to grips with this HD thing before I get it.:lease:
     
  21. Pebb

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    Hz is classed as the refresh rate, and when I mean this. An example is the lower the hz the more flicker you will see, the higher the hz the less flicker.

    And Hz has nothing to do with frames per sec mate.
     
  22. Mike_CA

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    I have a Sharp 45" LCD.
     
  23. Ploppy

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    Thanks TVR
     
  24. neilmcl

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    Hz is everything to do with frames per second :rolleyes:

    A Hertz or Hz is a measurement of any perodic occurence per second or in simple terms 1 Hz simply means "one per second". Therefore a video signal of 720p/50 for example means 50 frames of 720 lines progressive per second, a video card with a clock speed of 500MHz means that it can carry out 500 Million instructions per second and so on.

    Please check your facts.
     
  25. Mike_CA

    Mike_CA
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    Since film is shot at 24 fps, each frame is displayed for .04166 second using a movie projector. If you were displaying that frame on a TV at 1080i, you should display each frame for .04166 seconds at 24 hz also but that is impossible to do. If you were displaying it in 720p, you should display the frame 2 times at 48 Hz but that is impossible also. Now the problem is, what if you displayed the frame 1 time when using 1080i at 25 hz or 2 times when using 720p at 50 hz which what the TV has the capability of doing? Well the problem is that the image is displayed slightly less time than it should be by approximately 4% so you will have a slightly faster movie. To compensate, the TV uses what is called pulldown when displaying film. At a 60 Hz rate (US standard) TV, the pulldown is called 3:2 and I think at the 50 hz rate, the pulldown is called 13:12.

    What pulldown means is you want to pulldown or display one frame an extra time after so many frames have been displayed to get the picture back in sync. That means that a 13:12 pulldown will display 12 frames at 1080i and the 13th will be displayed twice. It also means that each frame will be displayed twice at 720p for 12 frames and the 13th frame will be displayed 4 times. Your eye cannot comprehend these changes so you will not notice any difference but the moive remains in sync.
     
  26. czytt

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    AIUI you don't get flicker on LCD and Plasma screens because they don't blank the entire frame before drawing the next one, which is how CRTs work.

    I thought we used a 2:2 pulldown at 50 Hz, thus ending up with slightly fasster frame rates on film. Could be wrong, though.

    Jerry
     
  27. Mike_CA

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    13:12 pulldown would give 50 hz the exact correct frame rate so I assume that would be what would be used. What would 2:2 pulldown mean? Does that mean no pulldown and that a 100 minute movie will finish in 96 minutes if it relies on the TV to compensate for the difference in frame rates? Maybe, 50 hz countries are not going to use the TVs capability and instead perform the operation at the source or maybe it is close enough that people could not tell the difference unlike 60 hz countries where the difference would be dramatic without pulldown.

    However, if the movie was not is not running at the correct speed, then you would think that there would be a problem with the audo getting out of sync with the movie. If the movie is running at the correct speed, then all they would need to do is play the audio directly from the source. If the movie is running at a speed that is 4% too fast, than some magic would have to occur to correct the audio.
     
  28. Rimmer

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    I wonder if LCD response time may prevent viewers from seeing the smooth motion of sport in 720p?
     
  29. Rimmer

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    Not sure, but I think what you are referring to 1/12th field padding. This is a way of converting 24 frames per second film to 25 frames per second video. It isn't used in European broadcasting or DVD, but it is the technique used by some DVD players when the output of a 24fps NTSC disc is forced to 50Hz PAL (some cheap players use 24+1 pulldown, an inferior solution) . While it is often claimed that 1/12th field padding looks terrible (jerky motion), I actually think it looks okay with some TV shows; however, I wouldn't want to watch a film output in that format.

    24fps TV shows and films encoded for the DVD and European broadcast TV market run 4% fast with 2:2 pulldown. The audio is speeded up by the same amount to keep it in sync, which leads to a 4% rise in the pitch of the audio. Most people do not notice the speed-up, but if you do an A-B comparison the actors' voices can sound comically high pitched in the 50Hz version. A few DVDs are pitch-corrected to compensate for the 4% speed-up, but it is not the standard practice as pitch compensation can lead to audio artifacts.
     
  30. RichardBoult

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    Does this mean that Americans watching NTSC sit around eating 4% more popcorn and have less time for other activities than we do? :devil:
     

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