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Will HD-DVD / BluRay adopt new sound formats?

Discussion in 'TVs' started by mattmarsden, Dec 28, 2004.

  1. mattmarsden

    mattmarsden
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    I'm wondering whether to purchase a new audio processor now, or wait unit the launch of the new disc format.

    I don't want to be left with a very expensive processor that can't play the latest formats. I'm sure Dolby Digital will be on the discs, but they may also include a much better format as well.

    Any speculations?
     
  2. cerebros

    cerebros
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    If i recall correctly there are new versions of Dolby Digital and DTS which will be available with the new formats. I think the Dolby one is called "Dolby Digital Plus".
     
  3. Evil Engineer

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    Both the main players have new formats lined up.

    Dolby have "Dolby Digital Plus" and DTS have "DTS-HD".

    Both formats will be available on DVD-HD and Blue Ray and support higher bit rates for more channels and/or increased sound quality.

    Both are "backwards compatable" but new decoder chips will be required to take advantage of the extra information.
     
  4. Dutch

    Dutch
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    DTS-HD also has a lossless option - which is nice. :smashin: HD DVD have also mandated MLP lossless decoding in 2 channel mode on their players. Blu-ray also has 8 channel uncompressed LPCM at up to 27Mbps!

    Steve
     
  5. Rimmer

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    From what I can gather the next-gen audio formats will be decoded by the player and delivered to your processor/amp via the HDMI interface as encrypted multichannel PCM audio. So to be future-proof you need a processor with HDMI inputs.
     
  6. mattmarsden

    mattmarsden
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    Rimmer, that makes sense. I suppose the processor will still be able to do all the time alignment etc as it just treats it as another digital signal.
     
  7. AML

    AML
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    Surely HDMI wont be the only cable we can use?
    Theres nothing wrong with coaxial or optical.
     
  8. Rimmer

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    Coax/optical outputs will definitely be included, but they will only output DD/DTS or 16/48 stereo PCM, as is the case with current DVD. You won't get to hear lossless/high-res multichannel audio from high-def DVDs unless you upgrade your receiver.
     
  9. Evil Engineer

    Evil Engineer
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    Coaxial/optical wouldn't have sufficient bandwidth to cope.

    I think that's one of the main reasons DVD-A and SACD use firewire, apart from the copy protection thing.

    I assume it would be possible to use firewire for DTS-HD/DD+ but until the kit is out there it's anyone's guess.
     
  10. AML

    AML
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    I realise HDMI will be important but I still preffer to have 2 sepparate cables for picture and sound.
    Also cable quality is important to me and i have still to see a decent HDMI, Fire wire, or some other link (ie denon link).

    My coaxial cable (using now) cost me quite a bit and is very good quality.
     
  11. Master Rahl

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    Is this the UK only? None of my stuff has HDMI connectors and I'm not buying any that is going to restrict my rights.

    How come optical won't have bandwidth for high definition sound?
     
  12. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    I think it isn't "optical" per se that doesn't have the bandwith, just the Toslink optical implementation?

    It may well be that a new optical standard appears - but as HDMI allows it via a wired digital connection, and HDMI is the emerging HD video interconnect standard, I guess an optical standard is less of an issue.

    I think it is clear that current optical implementations won't support the full new HD sound standards though?
     
  13. Master Rahl

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    Huh? My TV doesn't have a HDMI connector. My satellite and digital cable box (both HD) don't have HDMI connectors. My HD card in my computer doesn't have HDMI connectors. I don't see how you can make such a claim.
     
  14. beeblebrox12

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    I understand 2005 will be the year of the advent of HDMI. Almost every new HDTV set released second half of 2004 has HDMI input. I expect it to be even more so in 2005. The first mass market AV receivers with HDMI switching will appear too.
    We owners of DVI gear have nothing to worry though. Full backwards compatabilty of HDMI to DVI.
     
  15. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    Most new HD capable sets I have seen on sale in the UK have started sprouting HDMI inputs, whilst a few have DVI and most also have analogue component. AIUI at least one of the MPEG2 HD receivers sold in Europe also supports HDMI (or DVI)

    AIUI HDMI is emerging as a standard - I didn't say it was ESTABLISHED as a standard. What is clear is that Sky NOT supporting component analogue is a significant issue for European HD interconnects.

    In the US I would expect component analogue to remain prevalent for a while to come - but this is because the US is running an earlier HD system than Europe is likely to adopt. On the other hand you have it now!

    I think the major advantage for the consumer is that HDMI is digital and will support fixed pixel displays nicely. The advantage for rights holders is that the link is encrypted, so material is less easy to "leak" out - though I'm sure someone will be cracking HDMI ASAP.

    (Contrast this to the US situation where un-ecrypted native MPEG2 is available to feed to DVHS and PVRs over Firewire, and analogue component can be fed to DVTRs...)
     
  16. Master Rahl

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    Well, if HDMI is going to have digital rights crap built in, I am sooo happy to be on an older inferior system like component input.

    I bought my HDTV in October last year and it does not have a HDMI connector. It has two sets of component inputs and one DVI. I use the components for my DVD players and receivers and the DVI for my MythTV box.
     
  17. beeblebrox12

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    HDMI is no different than DVI in terms of digital rights and encryption. Having DVI input is just as good and future-proof as having HDMI.
    There's no downside to having HDMI and/or DVI.
     
  18. Master Rahl

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    My DVI output on my Radeon has digital rights crap in it? I don't think I understand.
     
  19. Rob20

    Rob20
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    In the UK SKy has just announced it's 1st hi-def service to start 2006 will only be accessable via HDMI cable, or DVI that are hdcp compatible. Therefore we won't be able to watch hi-def tv through component as was previously thought. Perhaps Blu-Ray and HD-DVD will go the same route?
     
  20. Rimmer

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    I think that the first Blu-ray / HD players made for the North American market probably will have component outputs, while the European ones will be HDMI only - as per SkyHD. Component is too established over there for manufacturers simply to ignore it. That isn't the case in Europe, where there is no mainstream HD and SCART is the predominant SD interconnect, although as has been pointed out, some expensive high-def displays on sale here are not HDCP compliant.

    As for audio, even if the current interconnects had the bandwidth to carry lossless/high-def multichannel PCM, it would never be allowed due to copy protection concerns - hence the lack of digital out on DVD-A and SACD players (except for high-end players with Firewire or Meridian's proprietary MHR interconnect). Every disc will have a backwards compatible DD/DTS soundtrack, though. A full bit rate DTS soundtrack on Blu-ray / HD-DVD release may not be next-gen quality, but it will sound considerably better than a typical half bit rate soundtrack on SD-DVD.
     
  21. Master Rahl

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    Doubtful. If they do, I won't buy one. I'll buy a player for my MythTV boxes instead and use a computer.

    I haven't seen TVs or receivers with HDMI output. Even the latest greatest Motorola receiver (HD) don't have HDMI.

    If they want North America, their biggest market, to support their new DVD players, they have to support component. If they don't, the vast majority of people won't be able to use it on their HDTV sets.
     
  22. beeblebrox12

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    Doubtful. I'm pretty certain that in a few years there will be almost no new HD material in North America that will be viewable through component.
    As I said, in terms of HDCP protection, HDMI=DVI. If your TV has DVI in, it is as good as HDMI in. When VOOM apply HDCP (i.e. people who don't have DVI or HDMI equippped TV sets will only see 480p through their component outputs), you will still be able to watch HDTV in full glory from the DVI output ff your Moto box connected to the DVI input of your TV.
    The Radeon card sends video through DVI without HDCP (encryption), but that has no relevance to the topic. It was never meant to send HDCP signal. But even if it did, your DVI equpped TV would still be able to receive and decode it. You will never be able to watch VOOM and DirectV HDTV (oficially or not) on your PC, and never ofiicially from Dish. You may be able to record HDTV from mentioned providers plus from cable via firewire, but that will be restricted to what providers flag as recordable.

    Also, every single new HDTV set has either HDMI or DVI - as I said many times over - it is the same thing in terms of video. You probably haven't looked at new TVs lately.

    And, I am almost certain, that there will be quite some time after the first HD-DVD players are released (it is yet to be seen if they'll have compnonet in America), before we will be able to play HD-DVD on the PC. I'm pretty sure that this will require a protected video channel to a new type of video card which doesn't exist yet and certainly your MythTV boxes will not allow streaming, ripping or whatver you do now with current DVDs. Except for viewing the picture through your special new video card on your DVI equipped TV or other HDCP compliant monitor.
    I might be wrong about the last, but most probably this is how things will turn out.
     
  23. Master Rahl

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    Argh, so this is a war between them controlling me and me controlling how and where I want to view their products. Annoying.

    Even if we have to wait 1 year for HD-DVD drives, it will flop if they don't have component output. Too many people are using component outputs. People that don't want to buy new equipment.

    I'm also not a fan of this broadcast flag. I'm sure it will end up before the Supreme Court, so we'll see. In the meantime, I'll make sure to buy equipment that ignore it.
     
  24. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    As I understand it DVI on its own doesn't have rights management, it is only when HDCP is optionally included that it does? HDMI has HDCP or similar integrated, and is based on a physically different connector?

    AIUI this means that PC video cards with DVI outputs might not support rights management, but if HDCP to DVI for consumer applications it will?

    I would imagine that any HD DVD / Blu Ray player aimed at the US or Japanese markets, where there are large numbers of component-only HD displays, will have to support analogue component.

    Similar devices aimed at Europe - where there are fewer existing HD capable displays may only have HDMI or DVI+HDCP?

    I would imagine that any disc based format is likely to be "pirated" by people decrypting/decoding the data from the disc, rather than re-digitising uncompressed (and D/A converted) baseband video though.
     

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