Will Blu-ray 4K be a success?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD discs' started by RayP, Dec 23, 2016.

  1. RayP

    RayP
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,618
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Cheshire, England
    Ratings:
    +1,086
    I've had a 4K OLED TV for just over a month and last week added a Oppo 203 UHD player. The quality of upscaled Blu-ray disks is exceptional on my 55".

    Yes I can see a difference between 1080p and 3840 but it's not night and day the way SD to HD was. You have to sit at the correct distance to appreciate the difference and I suspect many don't either through ignorance of the guidelines (no offence intended) or practical considerations in the home.

    Those who will genuinely benefit are those with projection systems as the image is so much larger. But they are a tiny minority of those who buy 4K gear.

    And then you have to consider the difference in price between a Blu-ray disk and a 4K one. Let's take Star Trek Into Darkness - a popular title. The Blu-ray version will cost you £4.98 for the standard release but the 4K one is £24.79. Heck, I can buy the trilogy in Blu-ray for £17.99 - nearly £7 cheaper than the single 4K release! :(

    Many other 4K titles cost £25 or even £30 compared to less than £10 for the Blu-ray equivalent.

    Any we also need to take into account that many of these films were not shot entirely in 4K. Some were shot partially with studio up-scaling for the remainder. So how can they charge 4K prices when the master was not 4K?

    For me the jury is out. If the prices of 4K came down to Blu-ray + 25% I would consider buying but as things stand I think these premium prices may signal its demise and it could become a great white elephant. Wouldn't be the first time it's happened would it?
     
  2. Indiana Jones

    Indiana Jones
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2003
    Messages:
    37,036
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +9,747
    Well Into Darkness probably isn't a good example as its a 3 year old film so the BD will of course have been heavily discounted since then, better to compare the price of Beyond which was released on BD and UHD at the same time so the price difference is around £10

    UHD is still in its infancy and like with VHS, Laserdisc, DVD and BD before they are charging a premium for this new format (still remember our first two DVD's costing £24.99 each) so prices will eventually come down just like everything else.
     
  3. RayP

    RayP
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,618
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Cheshire, England
    Ratings:
    +1,086
    But with all those formats you list the improvement in PQ was very obvious. Is that still the case with Blu-ray versus 4K? I would argue it isn't so the premium is not fully justified especially when many films are not fully shot in 4K.
     
  4. Indiana Jones

    Indiana Jones
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2003
    Messages:
    37,036
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    Bristol
    Ratings:
    +9,747
    You might find this hard to believe (as do I) but for a lot of people they don't see any difference between DVD and BD and among my friends I am probably the only one with any kind of BD collection, the rest are perfectly happy with DVD so the increased PQ/cost argument doesn't really tally, UHD is a new format and hence will automatically start at a higher price.
     
  5. Evokazz

    Evokazz
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2008
    Messages:
    1,946
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    116
    Ratings:
    +525

    Same with people I know, they are happy with DVD. I am a big movie collector, and I owned around 5000 DVD's at one point. I told myself Blu was a waste of time as the difference was minimal. Then I watched Avatar on DVD one night, and again at a friends the following week on BR, and the difference was amazing. I fought with myself for awhile but in the end I sold my entire collection and made the switch. I have not caught up to my old collection yet, but have around 3000 Blu Rays currently.

    While I am totally 4K SUHD ready, I personally feel I will only buy my favorite movies on 4K Discs. The difference from DVD to BR was huge IMO, but BR - 4K is not that big, especially if your Blu Player upscales. Certain movies will shine, but not massively, just the faves for me. While I have a HDR1000 TV I wont be making any fuss over getting HDR discs either as am not overly sold on the tech yet.
     
  6. andy1249

    andy1249
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2006
    Messages:
    8,606
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Ratings:
    +2,651
    It is a tough sell, figures are not great so far , with about 250K discs sold from 45 titles.
    The format needs more titles and much bigger sales figures before prices can come down, as always with new tech , early adopters pay to keep the infant growing.
    That's better than blu ray in its first year, but blu ray had a format war with HD DVD to contend with.
    UHD does not.

    The jump in resolution alone is not enough to sell it because most TV's are not big enough to show the benefit.
    Its HDR that will be most noticeable but again , there is the problem that most screens can only manage about 70% of what is possible.

    It is still too early to call, but it could easily be another 3D in that dis-interest could kill it.
     
  7. simonblue

    simonblue
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    Messages:
    19,712
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Ratings:
    +8,880
    I can also remember paying £24.99 for my first DVD,all format run the risk of failing HD-DVD SACD etc to name a few.
    But i think its on fairly solid ground,but need at least another year to start getting titles out,and more people taking it up.
    Even now a quick walk round HMV tell me which format is still king dvd,but blu ray runs nicely beside it.
    :)
     
  8. High Fidelity

    High Fidelity
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2007
    Messages:
    974
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    64
    Ratings:
    +286
    I think pointless 4K will go the same way as 3D .Regret having bought the 4K Sony XD9305
     
  9. hippo99

    hippo99
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    16,509
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Ratings:
    +9,654
    What are you talking about? HD-DVD is alive & well!
    Harry Potter And The Order Of The Phoenix
    In stock & ready to despatch in 24hrs:laugh:;)

    (p.s what a random listing, even for Zavvi:))
     
    • Like Like x 4
    • Funny Funny x 2
    • List
  10. mjcairney

    mjcairney
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 26, 2003
    Messages:
    7,275
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    137
    Location:
    Airdrie, Scotland
    Ratings:
    +1,074
    Would that be savvy Zavvi? :D

    Season's Greetings,

    Martin.
     
  11. simonblue

    simonblue
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    Messages:
    19,712
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Ratings:
    +8,880
    Wonder if it will sell :laugh::)
     
  12. Abacus

    Abacus
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2015
    Messages:
    698
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    67
    Location:
    Torbay
    Ratings:
    +453
    You will have 4K TVs whether you want them or not as nobody makes decent large HD displays anymore, plus prices of 4K TVs are dropping fast.

    With Virgin, Sky and streaming services offering 4K at enticing prices, (Special deals are rampant) users will accept 4K and not even realise it. (Just like it happened to HD)

    With the drop-in price of the discs and players, (Player prices are dropping like a stone, even though there is a limited number on the market) plus as UHD players can play HD, SD & CD, they will go the same as Blu-Ray Players did to DVD. (Apart from a few cheapo specials, how may DVD players are left on the market)

    Give it a couple of years, and UHD, HDR will be the only TVs and players left on the market, (Except Blu-Ray cheapo specials) so whether you like it or not, it is here to stay.

    3D was a novelty, which with incompatible TVs, glasses, (Not forgetting the inconvenience) was always destined to fail.

    I remember similar conversations as this when VHS moved to DVD and DVD moved to Blu-Ray, and look forward to the next one when we move from 4K to 8K.

    Merry Christmas

    Bill
     
  13. Geoff_D

    Geoff_D
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2005
    Messages:
    11,868
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Spider Skull Island
    Ratings:
    +5,811
    Define "success". Blu-ray itself is a niche market because DVD is still king, to say nothing of 'niche of a niche' offshoots like 3D Blu-ray and UHD Blu-ray. In less than a year UHD Blu has already begun to nudge ahead of 3D in the percentage of units sold for any given 2D/3D/UHD title, so while I don't think it'll ever become the standard it's doing just fine for itself.

    And besides, concentrating on the 4K aspect isn't seeing the forest for the trees. Yes, it's called 4K but even the studios are fully aware that the increase in spatial resolution provides the least benefit for the most amount of bandwidth compared to High Dynamic Range and the Wider Colour Gamut, two things which have made the biggest difference of my BD vs UHD viewing - and you don't need to be sat 4 foot from the screen to appreciate them either.

    Good old buyer's remorse. :thumbsup:
     
    • Agree Agree x 5
    • Like Like x 2
    • List
  14. RayP

    RayP
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,618
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Cheshire, England
    Ratings:
    +1,086
    No, I'm not surprised some can't see a difference between SD and HD. Yes, prices will start higher but if people don't take up the format they will be forced to lower them. And I'll reiterate my point. A 4K Blu-ray is only worth considering if the film was shot all in 4K. otherwise we're being conned.
     
  15. RayP

    RayP
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,618
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Cheshire, England
    Ratings:
    +1,086
    Precisely! The difference is marginal and I suspect if 1080 large TVs were still available - especially OLED - then 4K would fail. The TV manufacturers must be in cahoots with the film industry the way 4K is being pushed.
     
  16. hippo99

    hippo99
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    16,509
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Ratings:
    +9,654
    No, it's just a lot, lot easier to convince someone (ie wife:D) 'they need to' upgrade their 2015 1080p TV to a new 4K TV, than try to convince them to upgrade their 2015 1080p TV to a new 2016 1080p TV.

    Push 4K, they get a new sale. Push 1080p, most people will decide to make do with their current TV & not upgrade, therefore no sale.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  17. raduv1

    raduv1
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    14,023
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    kent
    Ratings:
    +9,548
    Who can say, as long as I can get UHD discs and they improve over BD then I will keep on purchasing, there is a major momentum shift on UHD over BD in terms of PQ and sound ( atmos only UHDS ) and one only has to watch Revenant to appreciate just how far PQ can go . Much like BD or DVD it's going to depend on the work put into a physical disc release.

    Strange as it seems , if you want a night and day comparison I would suggest Pacific Rim , although is Revenant is colour mastered differently on UHD to the BD release I belive.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  18. Jules

    Jules
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2000
    Messages:
    5,651
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    137
    Ratings:
    +1,157
    I have the Oppo UltraHD player and an LG OLED, AND I sit very close to my screen

    But even I would consider the improvement between HD and UHD hardly worth bothering with at the current prices.

    I've bought a couple of UHD discs, Deadpool and Shallows. Shallows comes with a Blu-ray disc in the same box and I compared the two.. not much in it at all.

    I'd rather replace my DVDs with Blu-rays, than my Blu-rays with UltraHD.
    In fact, knowing what I know now, If a 4K version of my favourite film is available for £24.99, or for £6.99 on Blu-ray, I'll by the Blu-ray.

    There is however one big caveat... Dolby Atmos. Studios are deliberately crippling Blu-ray discs (which are perfectly capable of carrying Dolby Atmos) and saving the best sound for their Ultra HD releases.

    They are making the worthwhile USP of UltraHD the very thing that Blu-ray can already do.
    In other words, we are being conned.
     
  19. Doctor Smith

    Doctor Smith
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,464
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Loughborough
    Ratings:
    +259
    4k meh. HDR yessssss!
     
  20. simonlewis

    simonlewis
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2014
    Messages:
    4,625
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    stockport
    Ratings:
    +1,729
    I agree that their is no difference between standard 1080p blu-ray and 4K but sometimes it's nice to own a 4K ultra black blu-ray box.
     
  21. HugoFJH

    HugoFJH
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2007
    Messages:
    2,342
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    63
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +131
    I think your numbers are out of date as I read recently UHD discs have surpassed 1M this year (and below link indicates your figures were surpassed by the end of June '16

    Early Ultra HD Blu-ray Sales Numbers Exceed Disc Predecessor

    Its also not helping that alot of UHD discs are actually from 2k intermediaries, so there wont be night and day differences with BR's in the first place. Find those done with 4k intermediaries and this will help somewhat....not to mention the quality of the sets currently (and different levels/ qualities of HDR within each set).

    Once HDR has been around four or 5 years this will level out somewhat (especially once broadcasters get HLG, or transmission HDR, sorted and rolled out) this will help more people see the qualities of newer sets

    Its also a pity that any set under 55" and its going to be very hard indeed to see any differences anyway because of the scale, and with a PJ in use its differet levels again of HDR etc (as has been described in recent podcasts on here) , for the time being at least the only way to really get the best out of UHD is on a 65"+ (premium range) tv, a UHD drive and proper 4k disc (dont even try talking about downloads,this is a waste of time for most people imo)

    Comparing prices of BR and UHD is daft imo for the following reasons;
    1) Majority of UHD films already released have been available on BR for some time and therefore arent "premium" releases - but more like re-releases, so BR is budget price but 4k disc is premium just because the actual product is so new

    2) In majority of UHD releases you actually get the BR disc as well, so I will certainly be getting more UHD releases Im interested in once they appear

    3) For a brand new release on a brand new product , I have found in major supermarkets most releases are £19.99 which for both discs , imo, is a reasonable deal. Im sure this will come down in price but for the most part even if it doesnt with the standard (2D) BR release being £12-£15, Im happy to spend an extra £5 for decent 4k discs , even if there is an added release delay on the 4k version (which will probably disappear quicker than any price premium).

    What about new releases (on BR) where there will be a ~£5 difference when you shop around?


    Be careful with assumptions you dont know every studio will be doing this - so its happened on one or two discs so far, its not a huge issue unless this continues
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2016
  22. Greg Hook

    Greg Hook
    Moderator & Reviewer

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2001
    Messages:
    24,260
    Products Owned:
    2
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    166
    Location:
    In a secret location with Jennifer Lawrence
    Ratings:
    +11,520
    Interesting thread. The industry as a whole has certainly contrived to do its very best to ensure the format fails.

    When Bluray came out as long as you had a HDMI cable, 1080P TV and Blu-ray player you were sorted. To a degree you received pretty much the same viewing experience as anyone else.

    But with 4K, the TVs came out far too early and now those who don't have the latest TV can't watch a UHD to get the best out of it such as HDR and that's before even mentioning the likes of Dolby Vision.

    £19.99 for a UHD is fair enough, £5 more than the equivalent Blu-ray.
    Similar to what Jules said, there is very little chance I will upgrade Blu-rays that I currently own to UHD. I will try and buy UHD going forward for new films but won't be upgrading owned titles like I did with all my DVDs.

    The difference in DVD to Blu-ray was immediately obvious, Blu-ray to UHD isn't. Especially when it's a 2K one.
     
  23. simonblue

    simonblue
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    Messages:
    19,712
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Ratings:
    +8,880
    Most movies are shot on various cameras,of all different resolution from say Go pro 1080p up i think about 6.5K.
    I think what you mean is movies made from an 4K DI,instead of an 2K DI ? :)
     
  24. simonblue

    simonblue
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    Messages:
    19,712
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Ratings:
    +8,880
    Sometimes the big different is not always about resolution,HDR & WCG can come into play and make an bigger different.
    Again you will need an TV that can make the most of theses new tecs not just an 4K one :)
     
  25. Jim Di Griz

    Jim Di Griz
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    18,305
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Darkplace Hospital
    Ratings:
    +9,858
    The IMAX version of Into Darkness is better than the 2D or 3D UK ones I assure you. Even sounded better to me.
     
  26. RayP

    RayP
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,618
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Cheshire, England
    Ratings:
    +1,086
    I think by DI you mean Digital Intermediate. In other words they're upscaling 2K masters to 4K and then trying to convince us they're full UHD. I'm very grateful that AV Forum film reviews include details of how the film was shot and what process was involved to end up with a 4K Blu-ray.

    You may or may not know that Lawrence of Arabia was shot on 70mm film and was remastered to 8K. Even on Sky Q the UHD version is superb and puts many modern releases to shame.
     
  27. RayP

    RayP
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2003
    Messages:
    3,618
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Cheshire, England
    Ratings:
    +1,086
    Presumably I need to have seen that at an IMAX cinema to appreciate the difference.
     
  28. hippo99

    hippo99
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2008
    Messages:
    16,509
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Ratings:
    +9,654
    Yes, although the UHD does open up for the expanded IMAX scenes (still cropped from full IMAX AR though).
     
  29. simonblue

    simonblue
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2006
    Messages:
    19,712
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    163
    Ratings:
    +8,880
    Yes i no about Lawrence of Arabia,but that was shot as you say on film,which give you an much wider latitude in which to work with when remastering.
    And yes a lot of UHD are taken from an 2K DI and up scaled to 4K,but the thing is if you feel your being cheated just dont buy any :)
     
  30. Geoff_D

    Geoff_D
    Distinguished Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2005
    Messages:
    11,868
    Products Owned:
    1
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Spider Skull Island
    Ratings:
    +5,811
    Ugh, this thread is the same old party line parroted over and over again. Several of the most impressive UHDs in my collection are from 2K upscales BECAUSE IT'S NOT ALL ABOUT THE SODDING RESOLUTION.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 2
    • Funny Funny x 1
    • List

Share This Page

Loading...