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Will a sorround reciever ever sound as good as my Roksan?

Discussion in 'AV Receivers & Amplifiers' started by oreoboy13, Jan 11, 2002.

  1. oreoboy13

    oreoboy13
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    I currently have a Roksan Kandy Amp/ Cd player, connected to a pair or CM4s with about £400 worth of wires, this is going to be sold and replaced for the following reason. I am about to move into Home cinema with the purchase of either the Sony 44PS2U or Toshiba 42WH18P. The System i have been recommened as far as audio is concerned is a Denon 3802, with a Denon 2800 or Arcam DV88 with a M&K K3 speaker package. The reason for this is as i would like to keep the number of boxes to a minimum. My Concern though, is the Music play back will be allwful. From what i have read the Arcam and the M&Ks are good with music, but i am not sure about the Denon? I would be really grateful for any pointers at all. I can budget for money if i need to.

    Thank you in advance for ppls time.
     
  2. russraff

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    Not that I am knocking the 3802, but you are right, it won't sound as good as your Roksan. The A10 SE is a different matter, but doesn't have the decoding options of the Denon. The Denon 2800 is a good player, but only equal to the Kandy (for normal CD's). The Denon 3802 and 2800 won't sound awful, just not that good compared to the Kandy system you own. I don't know about the M&K speakers.

    Russell
     
  3. oreoboy13

    oreoboy13
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  4. dts_boy

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    to get near that kind of sound your used to your looking a t the best part of £4000 to get close. the M&Ks are indeed good, but can be quite bright sounding. the dv88 is an amazing machine, well worth the money and look at the new denon 11sr, more musical than the 3802. try listening to something like the cdm range by B&W as well:)
     
  5. Reiner

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    Keep the Candy ;) and connect the preouts of any AV amp to the e.g. AUX input of the stereo amp. All stereo sources remain connected to the stereo amp and all AV sources connect to the AV amp. You could also connect the CD/DVD player's stereo out directly to the stereo amp and the digital out to the AV amp, thus creating an analog bypass.
     
  6. z5461313

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    Reiner

    That sounds a good idea - could you explain it in more detail and a bit slower so I can fully understand it

    So summarise - all speakers are connected to the av amplifier
    but the front left and right pre-out sockets on the av amplifier are plugged in with cables from the Roksan music amplifier

    From the Roksan which are the sockets you would connect to?

    Thanks
     
  7. oreoboy13

    oreoboy13
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    Thanks for the help :) I dont suppose i could use the cm4s for the front speakers and K4s for the rears? Also i am using a smallish room is it worth getting the AV1 over the AV11?
     
  8. RC

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    The most critical speakers to 'timbre match' are the ones at the front, i.e. Left, Centre and Right. It is not so crucial that they match the ones at the rear, although of course, it is better if they do, but not a showstopper by any means.
     
  9. Reiner

    Reiner
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    z5461313:

    You nearly got it:

    Front pre-outs of AV amp connects to AUX input of stereo amp (via line level, i.e. RCA cables).
    Center and Rear speakers are connected to teh AV amp.
    Front L&R are connected to the stereo amp.

    All traditional stereo sources (CDP or DAC) connect to the stereo amp.
    All AV sources (VCR, SAT etc.) connect to the AV amp.
    DVD(-A)/SACD player connects digitally to the AV amp and analog (stereo) to the stereo amp.

    You may connect e.g. tuner and tape to the AV amp to benefit from DSP modes or DPL II.


    Now you must juggle with two volume controls when watching movies, but you only need to remember the level at the stereo amp (mark or remember position of the volume knob) which is to be fixed. The AV amp will control the overall system volume after you have balanced all channels using a SPL meter (and not your ears).
    When listening to music you can switch off the AV amp, but ensure to lower the volume first!
     
  10. oreoboy13

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    Thanks for all your help so far. I would really like to keep the boxes down to a minimum and the speakers as a satallite sub combo, this i s why i suggested the M&K series. This is why i have to get rid of the HiFi stuff. It was suggested that i would need to spend £4000 to try and comparable music quality. What would you suggest?
     
  11. dts_boy

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    the denon avca1se is the best sounding av amp around! (that'll rustle some people's feathers)
    arcam dv88 dv27 and as far as speakers, keep the fronts you have now, get the matching b&w centre and get the m7k k4 tripoles. thats what i would do anyway!
    btw, you'll need a sub as well:)
     
  12. oreoboy13

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    Thanks for all your help so far. Maybe it would easier if I explained exactly what I am trying to achieve and what the current state of play. At the moment I have:

    Audio:
    Roksan Kandy CD/Amp
    CM4s
    Sony JA20ES Minidisk player.
    Some good quality wiring and interconnects Total £400.

    Visual:
    28" 4:3
    Sony S725D
    Yamaha RX396rds

    + PS2, Dreamcast, On digi-box soon a X-box and imported Game Cube.

    As you can see that’s quite a few boxes under the TV and this is all in the lounge. Also I think you will agree the music side outweighs the Movie side :). What I would like to do is minimize the number of boxes I have drastically. For a start I don’t need/use the minidisk player. And the game consoles can be put in the drawer under the coffee table, they don’t need to be connected 24/7. In the next week I am going to order a Toshiba 42WH18B to replace the TV, which I think you will all agree is a good start. After this happens I am left with, ignoring the on-digi box

    Sony S725D
    Yamaha RX396rds
    Roksan Kandy CD/Amp
    CM4s

    Now what I would like to do is sell all these and replace them with two boxes and some small speakers, preferably as satellites. I have a budget of an about £4000 and would like to get the same sort of musical experience as before. My only constraints are that I live in rented accommodation and so I cannot do hard wiring into walls. I have had suggested so far an Arcam DV 88 Denon 3802 and an M7K 3 system, but as I mentioned before I am not convinced it will sound musical enough, and also it is below my budget.

    If you have read this far I would like to thank you. If you feel you could help me I would like to thank even more. 
     
  13. Reiner

    Reiner
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    To avoid any disappointment I think you still should keep the Kandy and speakers. Add center and rears (or move existing speakers to the rear and add center and new fronts) matching to your CM4's, thus maintaining a tonal match between the speakers. Consider also spending around GBP500 on a sub.
    Connect an AV amp as described above, i.e. the front amplification of the AV amp won't be used but you get away with a cheaper unit.

    Otherwise the AVC-A1SE (with upgrade) or the AVC-11SR are a good start, but listen to them first as to compare to your current setup. Then decide which option sounds best.

    One thing regarding the M&K speakers: are they THX approved? If they might not suit music very well, so be carefull.

    And one more thing regarding the wiring, something I did before at a rented place: I glued (uisng a hot glue gun) plastic trunking onto the wall, just above the floor / wooden border (how you call that?) to hide the speaker and some power cables (in different trunking). Looked neat and made cleaning much easier, as well it can be easily removed. Hopefully the plaster won't come down ... :D
     
  14. RC

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    Reiner - the wood between the floor and the wall is called "skirting board", as it skirts around the room.

    I agree that keeping the CM4's is a good idea (you said you were happy with your current set up). To keep the budget on speakers down, you simply need to add a CMC centre to the front, and as music is your prime concern, you can whittle the cost of rears down as long as you consider them to just be effects speakers. I've put 2 KEF eggs in place there at a cost of £200.

    If your top priority is to minimise the amount of boxes at the front of your room, then it seems quite clear you are looking for an integrated AV amp, of which the hi-end Denons seem to rule the roost, and then a hi-end DVD to handle CD playback as well. That being said, Rotel have launched a new all in one box, the RSX-1065 that seems to combine the RMB-1075 power amp's features, with processing capabilities. It has all the format handling of the Denons, but only offers 5 channels of amplification rather than 7, but it would be worth finding out if the amplification is of a higher standard or not (given your bias to music over movies, those extra 2 channels may not be worth having).

    The Arcam is said to be a particularly musical DVD player, but I would have thought it would be relatively easy to do a comparitive test between your Roksan CD player and an Arcam DVD. Centre speaker, plus a couple of cheaper rears would come to about £600, a sub to add broaden out your bandwidth, maybe £500 (I am using a REL Q150 as I only want it to support the music rather than give over the top LFE's in movies, and it is very compact).
     
  15. Reiner

    Reiner
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    Thanks for the explanation, RC!
     
  16. oreoboy13

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    Thanks for the input, but i think i didnt clarify what i meant properly. When i said the music side outweighed the movie side, i was speaking about my present setup. Movies and music are equally important, it would just be a shame to downgrade music quality for the sake of the movie experience. Ideally i would like to get rid of the CM4s and the roksan as they are quite big. Do you think what i am trying to do is unachievable at (i.e same music quality but through 2 boxes and satallites) at this price range? If so, how much would i need to spend?

    P.S The M&Ks are not THX
     
  17. Reiner

    Reiner
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    As I said, listen to some AV amps and see how they compare to your Roksan. Then decide which way to go, i.e. AV add-on or replacing everything. Nuff said.
     
  18. General Skanky

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    Good advice there.
    The weak link will be the amp.
    Roksan amps are very good for stereo.
    I can only say that an AV amp doesn't compare to a stereo one for music.
    As said above, you really will have to spend a fair bit on an amp to get as good a music performance as you are used to.
    Also as said, the Arcam is a good choice to do DVD and CD.

    In my own little experiments at home, juggling round AV and stereo amps, the AV one (Yamaha A2) sounded awful compaerd to my Densen Beat amp, by a long, long way. I tried the Yamaha for about 2 weeks as a stereo source, and its failings at music were night and day obvious the second the Densen went back in. No doubt at all about that.

    Reiner gave you the best bit of advice, 'definately' do listening tests!!!!!!!!!! At least you'll get the very best available, else it's a compromise.

    And lucky you, £4000 to play with, that must be just sheer hell.:D :D
     
  19. oreoboy13

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    I would just like to say thanks to everyone for their advice. Sorry i seem to go on about it, its just i keep getting confusing advice from the shops i go to. Like today i phone my local HiFi shop to book a sound test (Denon 3802 and Denon 2800/arcam DV88 and M&K K3 system). Anyway i got talking and he seemed to think i would be better spending the money on getting better M&K L/CR speakers and keeping the rears the same. I asked him surely i would be better getting a better amp, and he seemed to think the Denons was plenty good enough. Anyway i think you are both right that i should get out there and listen. I could talk about this until i become a member of the "Peoples front of Judea"
    (thats for any monty python fans).

    thanks again
     
  20. oreoboy13

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    Well i finally got the demo,

    I listened to the M&K K3 system with,

    1) Arcam AVR200 with Arcam DV88

    and

    2) Denon 3802 with Arcam DV88

    I took lots of CDs and not many Films. I knew the films would be great but i was more interested in the music playback. Anyway here are my results.

    I found the Arcam AVR200 was awful really weak, couldnt keep up with Marilyn Manson "Mechanical Animals" faired better with my Mission Test CD at lower voulmes, also a complete lack of low down oomph. Also found the movies lacking body and purpose.

    The Denon was much better, sounded fully with a greater sense of purpose both with Music and Movies. The denon sounds much more powerfull but with more control.

    What i got overall from the soundtest was the reality that i am going to have to keep my Roksan and CM4s if i want to have anything like the same Musical quality. The two aforementioned setups were laughable when compared to my Audio setup.

    So now to the point to my post. I have decided on the following setup:

    1) Roksan Amp to power the CM4s when playing music.
    2) Denon 3802 to play 5.1
    3) K4 rears, CMC centre and CM4 fronts.

    Now my CM4s are against the wal with one in a corner so i have blocked the ports with the provided sponges so, so i need a Sub?
    Also does anyone think a Arcam FMJ 27 DVD player/CD player would be over the top? The way i see its is the same as spending £800 on a DVD player and £800 on a CD player.

    Basically;

    1) Do i need a Sub?
    2) Arcam DV88 or Arcam FMJ27?
    3) Do ppl think this setup will be balanced?

    Thanks for all the help.
     
  21. Reiner

    Reiner
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    1. Yes. Any proper AV system should have one, mainly to serve the LFE.
    2. Can't really answer that but some reviews suggested the DV27 is too expensive for what it delivers though it's said to be good at playing music. Else consider using a dedicated CDP and a mid-range DVD player.
    3. Not with the DV27 (IMHO) but else it looks promising. Test your final "configuration" at home before you hand over the cash and you should know.
     
  22. oreoboy13

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    Thanks for the feedback, i didn't realise that the FMJ DV27 had anything other than v.good reviews, where did you read otherwise?

    Anyone else have any feedback, any help is greatly appreciated
     
  23. Reiner

    Reiner
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    It's in German though:

    http://www.area-dvd.de/hardware/arcamdv27.shtml

    In short (positive/negative):

    + picture
    + sound (also CD replay)
    + build quality
    + upgrade possibility (DVD-A)

    - layer change
    - noisy drive
    - user interface (menues)
    - few features
    - high price
    - low display resolution
    - lousy remote

    The reviewers say that there are other models at a lower price which can compete with the Arcam in terms of picture quality and sound.
     

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