Why would any other manufacturer support Blu-ray?

ianh64

Active Member
It seems to me that Sony have some what shot them selves in the testicles. Not only are they promising to build a capable blu-ray player but they also intent to release it with an inbuilt games console, albeit, compared with HD-DVD with a heafty price tag.

So what will persuade the likes of Pioneer, Samsung, Denon or Marantz to make unsubsidised standalone blu-ray players in the future when Sony have already cornered the market and taken first grabs at most of the components required to build such a player? And if there is no possibility of economically building a fully functional blu-ray player with picture quality and price to match that of other rival formats, then there is only one other logical format to support and that is HD-DVD.

So if Denon and Marantz follow the likes of Toshiba and all the other members of the DVD forum, what future does blu-ray hold? Or is it simply intended as a games format for pubescent teenagers?

:D
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
I think Toshiba and RCA have really caught some of the BluRay members by surprise with their aggressive pricing of HD DVD. The likes of Denon, Arcam (etc) will always have a market - there will always be those after highend kit. But it will be interesting to see if companies like Pioneer can sustain themselves if a price war occurs.
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
ianh64 said:
It seems to me that Sony have some what shot them selves in the testicles. Not only are they promising to build a capable blu-ray player but they also intent to release it with an inbuilt games console, albeit, compared with HD-DVD with a heafty price tag.

So what will persuade the likes of Pioneer, Samsung, Denon or Marantz to make unsubsidised standalone blu-ray players in the future when Sony have already cornered the market and taken first grabs at most of the components required to build such a player? And if there is no possibility of economically building a fully functional blu-ray player with picture quality and price to match that of other rival formats, then there is only one other logical format to support and that is HD-DVD.

So if Denon and Marantz follow the likes of Toshiba and all the other members of the DVD forum, what future does blu-ray hold? Or is it simply intended as a games format for pubescent teenagers?

:D


Price is always a factor and I think the issue for BD is that initial price point of the players will draw comparison to premium brand DVD products e.g. Denon, Marantz, Arcam, Onkyo etc.

The problem is Samsung, Sony, Panasonic and to a lesser extent Pioneer are not considered premium brands in that company.

If I'd spent a $1000 for the Samsung player I think I'd be pretty disappointed comparing it to the other formats initial offering. But it's early days and things will develop on both formats.

AVI
 

Evil Engineer

Active Member
You can't have it both ways, fellas!

One minute it's, "PS3 will be a crap Blu-ray player, it's too expensive for a games console, it will only get used by little Johnny for games and everybody will want a dedicated player".

The next it's, "PS3 is too cheap for a Blu-ray player, it will kill the market for players, why should anyone else bother?".

So PS3 is either a good Bluray player that everybody will buy instead of a dedicated player because it's too cheap or PS3 is a crap Blu-ray player that nobody will buy full stop because it's too expensive.

Which is to be ?

At least be consistant.
 

BadAss

Banned
Avi said:
Price is always a factor and I think the issue for BD is that initial price point of the players will draw comparison to premium brand DVD products e.g. Denon, Marantz, Arcam, Onkyo etc.

The problem is Samsung, Sony, Panasonic and to a lesser extent Pioneer are not considered premium brands in that company.

If I’d spent a $1000 for the Samsung player I think I’d be pretty disappointed comparing it to the other formats initial offering. But it’s early days and things will develop on both formats.

AVI

LMAO, it seems you are not 'indifferent' in your views on BD as you are when it comes to HD-DVD.:rotfl:
 

Grubert

Active Member
Well, they might not consider the PS3 direct competition.

That is more than you can say about the Toshiba HD-A1, which removed all motivation for any CE manufacturers to market HD DVD players. That is suicidal. (though that belongs to another thread...)
 

Avi

Distinguished Member
BadAss said:
LMAO, it seems you are not 'indifferent' in your views on BD as you are when it comes to HD-DVD.:rotfl:

BadAss

My answer of "indifference" is in response to your questions and your further badgering me to answer "So put me straight, would you welcome Denon or Marantz into the HD-DVD fold if their players sold at $999?" - "YES or NO".

This question above came about from you misquoting me in the first place – “So why do we hear so many HD-DVD supporters (Avi included) say why spend $999 on a BD player that a HD-DVD player can do for half the price, yet now your saying well it would be ok if Denon or Marantz release a HD-DVD player for $999 even if it doesn't return double the PQ?”

Explain to me how my view is any different from what I've posted here?

AVI
 

Evil Engineer

Active Member
Nic Rhodes said:
Why can't you have both, they seem to sit together for me?

Now you've lost me, I'm afraid.

The premise of this thread is that a subsidised Bluray player (PS3) will draw away sales from dedicated units, distort the market and make producing stand alone players uneconomical.

But HD-DVD proponents have spent months arguing that PS3 will make no difference to the HD format war because the people interested in HD won't be interested in using a games console for this purpose.

So the PS3 will sell and will affect the HD market AND AT SAME TIME PS3 won't sell and won't affect the HD market.

How does that "sit together"?
 

stranger

Well-known Member
Nic Rhodes said:
Why can't you have both, they seem to sit together for me?


Nic are you on commision from HD manufacturers or (as I suspect:devil: ) making bullets to stir with a big spoon;)
 

ianh64

Active Member
Evil Engineer said:
Now you've lost me, I'm afraid.

The premise of this thread is that a subsidised Bluray player (PS3) will draw away sales from dedicated units, distort the market and make producing stand alone players uneconomical.

But HD-DVD proponents have spent months arguing that PS3 will make no difference to the HD format war because the people interested in HD won't be interested in using a games console for this purpose.

So the PS3 will sell and will affect the HD market AND AT SAME TIME PS3 won't sell and won't affect the HD market.

How does that "sit together"?
Because until it (PS3) is officially released, both hypothesis (that the PS3 is a worthwhile blu-ray player or it is a pile of sh!te) can remain valid.
 

Evil Engineer

Active Member
ianh64 said:
Because until it (PS3) is officially released, both hypothesis (that the PS3 is a worthwhile blu-ray player or it is a pile of sh!te) can remain valid.

Which is yet another reason why all this "Bluray is dead on it's arse and HD-DVD has won" stuff we keep hearing (mainly from HD-DVD owners, funnily enough :) ) is just a load of complete bollards.

It's just far too early to tell either way, but using contridictory arguements at the same time to reach an apparently predetermined conclusion is disengenuous to say the least.
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
stranger said:
Nic are you on commision from HD manufacturers or (as I suspect:devil: ) making bullets to stir with a big spoon;)

Promoting a healthy debate with no fixed camp/ bias, so people see the pros and cons of both sides. :D
 
D

Deleted member 63580

Guest
Well I cant see it myself, as I said in another thread :D

Pioneer see there is a market for $1500 blu ray player, compared to the much cheaper PS3, there always has and always will be high end players with better features and components and so on.
 
D

Deleted member 63580

Guest
BadAss said:
LMAO, it seems you are not 'indifferent' in your views on BD as you are when it comes to HD-DVD.:rotfl:

Do keep this thread on topic, your post shows no interest in replying to the topic, just having a dig at another member.
 

Nic Rhodes

Distinguished Member
Evil Engineer said:
Now you've lost me, I'm afraid.

The premise of this thread is that a subsidised Bluray player (PS3) will draw away sales from dedicated units, distort the market and make producing stand alone players uneconomical.

It is quite possible, and likely, that one group will buy a PS3 instead of a dedicated player because that is all they want given the choice. This then stops some of manufacturers who would have produced players to pull out. The others who would not buy a PS3 at all now have players to pick from a smaller choice and they will now pay more for them.

You have one crowd who things PS3 is too much money because they never want BD in the first place. You have another crowd who end up with less choice and have to pay more money for what they want. Why can't ypu have both? Strikes me everything is not as black and white in this debate as some would make out but there is a spectrum of opinions. Similar arguments could be made for the aggressive marketing of HD DVD as well.
 

ianh64

Active Member
Evil Engineer said:
Which is yet another reason why all this "Bluray is dead on it's arse and HD-DVD has won" stuff we keep hearing (mainly from HD-DVD owners, funnily enough :) ) is just a load of complete bollards.
Absolutely, which is why I started this partly toung-in-cheek thread :D Unfortunately, I think the thread that this is closely based on was started in all seriousness.
 
D

Deleted member 63580

Guest
Evil Engineer said:
Which is yet another reason why all this "Bluray is dead on it's arse and HD-DVD has won" stuff we keep hearing (mainly from HD-DVD owners, funnily enough :) ) is just a load of complete bollards.

It's just far too early to tell either way, but using contridictory arguements at the same time to reach an apparently predetermined conclusion is disengenuous to say the least.


No more bollards than the thread asking the exact same question about HD DVD. Seems some people can do no right, its now ok to ask the question to HD DVD camp but not ok to ask the question to the BR camp?

This place gets more like a playground everyday.
 

BadAss

Banned
The other thread was started to show how hypocritical the HD-DVD camp is. They argue a $1000 BD stand alone players is too expensive compared a $500 HD-DVD player but feel 'Indifferent' as AVI put it if Denon or Arcam release a HD-DVD for $1000. Why is it OK for HD-DVD but never OK for BD?

We also get the arguement that the HD-A1 is so good no BD player can better it. But suddenly if Denon or Arcan sell a player for $1000 there seems plenty of room to improve PQ. So why then is it impossible for a $1000 BD player to improve PQ on the HD-A1?
 

Noggin1980

Distinguished Member
BadAss said:
The other thread was started to show how hypocritical the HD-DVD camp is. They argue a $1000 BD stand alone players is too expensive compared a $500 HD-DVD player but feel 'Indifferent' as AVI put it if Denon or Arcam release a HD-DVD for $1000. Why is it OK for HD-DVD but never OK for BD?

We also get the arguement that the HD-A1 is so good no BD player can better it. But suddenly if Denon or Arcan sell a player for $1000 there seems plenty of room to improve PQ. So why then is it impossible for a $1000 BD player to improve PQ on the HD-A1?

There is nothing wrong with haveing a $1000 player or even a $2000 dollar player. What is wrong for Bluray is that they don't have a $500 standalone player.

I think Denon or Marantz bringing out a $1000 player is a good thing and I don't see that as being hypocritical. I wouldn't buy one as the extra cost isn't worth it to me. But having more choice is definatly a good thing.

Thats certainly my biggest reason for my current HD-DVD leanings. The Blu-ray player is out of my price range and doesn't seem to give any benefits for its extra cost.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
They argue a $1000 BD stand alone players is too expensive compared a $500 HD-DVD player but feel 'Indifferent' as AVI put it if Denon or Arcam release a HD-DVD for $1000. Why is it OK for HD-DVD but never OK for BD?
Because Denon or Arcam aren't mass market companies - if in a few years they release a player that is 4 or 5 times the cost of average to cater for a small minority then that is different to the cheapest player being priced too high. If the cheapest BluRay player you can get is US$1000 then it is too expensive and the format will fail especially when the competition has a model out for half that with twice the performance.

We also get the arguement that the HD-A1 is so good no BD player can better it. But suddenly if Denon or Arcan sell a player for $1000 there seems plenty of room to improve PQ. So why then is it impossible for a $1000 BD player to improve PQ on the HD-A1?
Can't help but feel you've never owned a high end DVD player Badass. There are plenty of extras that people will pay for: high quality audio (for DVD-Audio/SACD), precise picture controls, front panel styling etc. And however brilliant the XA1's performance is - and having demoed it I consider it excellent - I'm sure it can be refined and improved. Just because we are being blown away with what we are seeing doesn't mean there isn't room for enhancements!
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Noggin understands - with BluRay the cheapest player you can get is US$1000 and this is marred with poor performance. Maybe the Sony, Panasonic or Pioneer models (priced between US$1000-$1500) will improve on that but only at more expence. Where is the high performing sub-US$500 machine? :lesson:
 

BadAss

Banned
Rasczak said:
If the cheapest BluRay player you can get is US$1000 then it is too expensive and the format will fail especially when the competition has a model out for half that with twice the performance.

If Samsung didn't drop the ball their player could well have been on par with Toshibas HD-A1, so I can't understand why you say the competition has twice the performance.
 

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