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Why the job must be finished in Afghanistan.

guest5234

Established Member
We cannot let the Taliban take over as they did before for the sake of women and children especially girls.
Women were forced to wear the burqa in public, because, according to a Taliban spokesman, "the face of a woman is a source of corruption" for men not related to them.[3] In a systematic segregation sometimes referred to as Gender apartheid, women were not allowed to work, they were not allowed to be educated after the age of eight, and until then were permitted only to study the Qur'an. Women seeking an education were forced to attend underground schools, where they and their teachers risked execution if caught.[4][5] They were not allowed to be treated by male doctors unless accompanied by a male chaperone, which led to illnesses remaining untreated. They faced public flogging and execution for violations of the Taliban's laws.[6][7] The Taliban allowed and in some cases encouraged marriage for girls under the age of 16. Amnesty International reported that 80 percent of Afghan marriages were considered to be by force.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban_treatment_of_women
 

GGTVBD

Prominent Member
Some of what you quote happens in Bradford and no doubt many other towns and cities in the UK!

Many girls are forced to wear headscarves from 9/10, many are forced to wear full face veils when married.

What do you suggest we do here?
 

Trollslayer

Distinguished Member
Sadly if you look at history (the British in India provides a lot of information) the job will never be "finished".
In a lot of ways the 'government' in Afghanistan isn't much better than the Taleban.
 

Duncan G

Prominent Member
We should pull out as soon as possible and stop shedding the blood of our soldiers and spending our taxs there. Let the Afhgans chose their way of life.
 

BISHI

Distinguished Member
It is an inevitability that the Taliban will be involved in the governance of Afghanistan in one way or another. It is also inevitable that once Western powers leave Afghanistan will revert to the medieval, tribal, backwards, unequal society it has always been . It has scant natural resources, an illiterate, uneducated population and more AK47s than a Moscow armoury. The economy in Afghanistan is dependant on opium and the only real 21st century alternative is tourism....................and thats really gonna happen when the Taliban re assert their twisted version of Islam accross the country. No matter how much money you throw at the country its never gonna change. Unfortunately these women you are concerned for never really had a chance TBH and nothing is going to change.
 
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Wild Weasel

Distinguished Member
A realistic summary BISHI. The region is culture-limited and will always be a basket case.
 

krish

Distinguished Member
Kabul was was once relatively cosmopolitan

a Kabul bus stop in the 1950s ...
1950s_Afghanistan_-_Public_transport_in_Kabul.jpg
 

BISHI

Distinguished Member
Kabul is not Afghanistan, there has always been a massive discrepancy between the elite in the capital and the rest of the rural population. You can govern in Kabul but never rule the whole country. This has always been true.
 

BISHI

Distinguished Member

Ayub

Distinguished Member
Some of what you quote happens in Bradford and no doubt many other towns and cities in the UK!

Many girls are forced to wear headscarves from 9/10, many are forced to wear full face veils when married.

What do you suggest we do here?

Not all :)
 

GGTVBD

Prominent Member

No, of course not mate.

At my 11 year old daughter's primary school, we have gone from none to 7 girls wearing headscarves this academic year. Ay my 14 year old daughter's secondary school, roughly one in 3 of her Pakistani heritage friends wear them. In both cases, they are made to wear them by their fathers. I'm sure it's a reaching the age of puberty thing, which, as those of us who have daughters know, seems to be arriving sooner as time goes by.

My sister in law has several Pakistani heritage friends who are made to wear full face veils by their husbands.

Which is why I asked the OP what we do in these situations, in our own country. No answer though...

With regard to Afghanistan, I agree with the comments above, we should withdraw our troops immediately. We had no right to be there when we thought Bin Liner was there. And now we know he wasn't, what the hell are we still doing there?!

Just my 2p.

Hope you're well Ayub. You're always welcome to pop in for a brew if you're ever passing. :)
 

Sonic67

Banned
With regard to Afghanistan, I agree with the comments above, we should withdraw our troops immediately. We had no right to be there when we thought Bin Liner was there. And now we know he wasn't, what the hell are we still doing there?!

Bin Laden was a spiritual head of Al Qaeda. The thread is about the Taliban?
 

GGTVBD

Prominent Member
Bin Laden was a spiritual head of Al Qaeda. The thread is about the Taliban?

Very true.

It was often said that our troops were there in the hunt for OBL though.

Whatever organisation we're facing, whether it be Al Qaeda or the Taliban, I don't care. I think we should be out. Now.
 

Ayub

Distinguished Member
Bin Laden was a spiritual head of Al Qaeda. The thread is about the Taliban?



Was alqaeda not taliban that were a threat.
Goal post moves everyday
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
Was alqaeda not taliban that were a threat.
Goal post moves everyday
The problem was our approach to Afghanistan. The beliefs of the Taliban is that the political cause of the guest in your house is your cause. And therefore when we blundered in heavy handed with large scale military force and ultimatiums we instantly sided the Taliban with Al-Qaeda - even though the two were not natural partners. Our approach to Afghanistan was culturally incompatible with their beliefs and the result has been a bloodbath.

Furthermore without a doubt politics played a part - the Army was keen to deploy to Afghanistanas it prevented cuts to the Army. Which is why we have 9000+ troops there versus other key players. The Afghanistan operation has kept Army numbers about 20,000 greater than they should be and, coupled with Iraq, has actually discredited our Forces somewhat - for example in articles such as this.

It is easy to criticise with hindsight but we should have adopted a smarter attitude to Afghanistan. An approach designed to seperate Al-Qaeda from the Taliban rather than trying to destroy both. It would have been possible but would have required patience rather than initial military action. Obviously the US, followed closely by our own politicians and Army Officers, were keen to do something loud and visible. We are still paying the price now.

But at least we are starting to correct things - well done to Cameron for sticking to the 2014 withdrawal!
 
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Sonic67

Banned
Rather than rely on newspaper articles from journalists trying to sell copies I'd rather rely on facts.

The job must be finished in Afghanistan because otherwise the country will slide back into being a haven for terroism rather than becoming a democratic country. The lives lost will then all have been for nothing. Given that the country could be sorted in a few years we should finish the job we started. We have already seeing simply dropping bombs on a country achieves little (see Libya).

Troops on the ground training local forces was the only way to provide security and order to the country and reform it. A position agreed by the UN and Nato and not a journalist. The locals in surveys of the country also agree.

BBC News - Afghans more optimistic for future, survey shows

Most Afghans are increasingly optimistic about the state of their country, a poll commissioned by the BBC, ABC News and Germany's ARD shows.

Of more than 1,500 Afghans questioned, 70% said they believed Afghanistan was going in the right direction - a big jump from 40% a year ago.

Of those questioned, 68% now back the presence of US troops in Afghanistan, compared with 63% a year ago.

For Nato troops, including UK forces, support has risen from 59% to 62%.



Minister Stanekzai: Afghanistan’s Future is Bright | ISAF - International Security Assistance Force

“There have been several notable improvements in various provinces since this time last year,” said Stanekzai.

For example: In Zabul, he said there are four times fewer insurgent groups entering the province than a year ago. While in neighboring Uruzgan, Kandahar and other provinces, it was much more difficult at this same time last year.

“These are just a few of the examples which shows a positive trend at the political, military and capacity level and are good and positive signs,” the minister said. “However, there are also a lot of challenges ahead and we have to be very careful about the message we are giving.”

“[You] should know that the peace process is generally supported by everybody, the international community is behind it and Afghanistan will not be abandoned once again,” the minister said during one of his meetings with Zabul provincial leaders.
 

BISHI

Distinguished Member
The country is too poor, the level of education too low and the primacy of religious fervour too great for democracy to ever succeed in Afghanistan.
There is no industry, an economy based primarily of subsistence agriculture and heroin and little in the way of natural resources to ever change this fact. The sooner we in the west accept that democracy is a pointless exercise outside the boundry of Kabul the better. Its a waste of time, money, hope and lives.
 

Sonic67

Banned
The country is too poor, the level of education too low and the primacy of religious fervour too great for democracy to ever succeed in Afghanistan.
There is no industry, an economy based primarily of subsistence agriculture and heroin and little in the way of natural resources to ever change this fact. The sooner we in the west accept that democracy is a pointless exercise outside the boundry of Kabul the better. Its a waste of time, money, hope and lives.

The country has been found to have huge mineral wealth,

BBC News - Afghans say US team found huge potential mineral wealth

From the Telegraph just for Rasczak as well..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...claims-mineral-wealth-is-worth-3trillion.html

schooling is now happening to females as well as males and religous fervour tends to come only to a few. Most people want what anyone else wants, to have an education, get a job, raise a family. Shame on you that you should want to deny this opportunity to others. You've obviously never been to the place.
 
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Rasczak

Distinguished Member
The country has been found to have huge mineral wealth,

BBC News - Afghans say US team found huge potential mineral wealth

From the Telegraph just for Rasczak as well..

Afghanistan claims mineral wealth is worth $3trillion - Telegraph
It's all a bit of a friend told a friend type reporting though isn't it ;) And the timing of the release - during a casualty heavy phase of the Afghan war - is a little convienant as well.

But all that said it will be great for the Afghanistan if the predictions hold true. And if the country stays stable enough after the 2015 pullout to enable extraction even better. It will also be great for the Indians and Chinese who are the ones likely to get the rights. It won't be the British that is for sure - you and I both know that if there is one thing the Afghans celebrate it is their victory in the war of independence with Great Britain.
 

Sonic67

Banned
What's up Rasczak? Casting doubt on newspaper articles? I thought you relied on them?

All countries have mineral wealth if you go down deep enough. No one has ever really checked out Afghanistan properly till now. Even if the place was rock all the way down the country is capable of growing other crops. Opium was grown as it gives protection and cash to the growers. In a country with little security and in poverty it was an easy choice. As security improves farmers grow other crops. Farmers could grow drugs for cash in this country but don't as they'd get arrested and farmers prefer to stay with the legal stuff as it's far less hassle. Part of living in a country with laws and authorities etc Religious fervour was mentioned above. Ironically in the same post as the growing of heroin without noticing that they are also polar opposites to each other.

Yes the Afghans remember long past history. Businessmen don't make decisions based on a bit of nostalgia though.

As to who will get contracts as someone said:

“contracts for subsequent re-construction - which are heavily influenced by military participation - and which then dovetails into future positioning for commerce and trade arrangements. It also impacts directly on the credibility with which we are viewed by our Allies which can have a significant impact on international political relations (within the UN, NATO and the emerging EU concept), future operations and capability support. It also impacts upon future military sales - Britain is the second largest arms exporter and inability to deploy ships, fighters and other expensive hardware does little to encourage foreign buyers - particularly those wealthy Middle Eastern countries that buy our equipment (e.g. Qatar and the Typhoon). Some key capability arms imports are also impacted in a variety of ways that are not immediately obvious.”

I'd say that was an endorsement by someone for future contracts in the aftermath of Herrick unless they think they got that view wrong.
 

Rasczak

Distinguished Member
What's up Rasczak? Casting doubt on newspaper articles? I thought you relied on them?
:rotfl: Well I guess we'll have to see Sonic. Let's get on with the task of getting our forces out of Afghanistan and see how things settle down. I absolutely agree with whoever the "someone" you quoted was - but the comments made does depend on a successful military operation in which we had a real and substantive part - Afghanistan is unlikely to fall into that category especially with the Sangin withdrawl. You only need to look at BASTION, now dwarfed by LEATHERNECK, to see how marginalised we have become there. Still I genuinely hope you are right and the country remains a stable democracy post the 2015 withdrawl. I further hope you are right about the mineral wealth and I would love to believe you are right about the UK getting any significant contracts.

What is certain is that the UK combat mission in Afghanistan must end by 2015 and mustn't be extended on the off chance of any of the above. Cameron seems to appreciate this and is taking steps in the right direction. But he needs to keep the pressure on General Richards or else we will be there forever.
 
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Sonic67

Banned
I absolutely agree with whoever the "someone" you quoted was - but the comments made does depend on a successful military operation in which we had a real and substantive part - Afghanistan is unlikely to fall into that category especially with the Sangin withdrawl.
Myself and others think you have no idea over Sangin so that leaves the rest of your argument flawed though as you have that wrong it would lead you to be wrong elswhere.
You only need to look at BASTION, now dwarfed by LEATHERNECK, to see how marginalised we have become there.
:rotfl: Err the US is a superpower and we aren't. I freely admit our forces aren't as big as the US. If it's your take that we shouldn't contribute as we will be marginalised by the US then we shouldn't contribute ANYWHERE!
What is certain is that the UK combat mission in Afghanistan must end by 2015 and mustn't be extended on the off chance of any of the above. Cameron seems to appreciate this and is taking steps in the right direction. But he needs to keep the pressure on General Richards or else we will be there forever.
The UN wanted the country capable of looking after its own security. As more people are trained Afghans make up the larger proportion of ISAF. After 2015 I imagine there will still be a presence there for years after as part of ongoing training for the Afghans though at a reduced capacity in much the same way that we do with other countries. What is certain is that our involvement should be UN led and not down to 'we need to get out as soldiers get hurt.'
 

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