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Why no crt hdtv in the uk?

Discussion in 'General TV Discussions Forum' started by phetttt, Dec 13, 2004.

  1. phetttt

    phetttt
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    I must've been kinda bored but i just wondered why you cant get a high definition crt tv in the uk, and after reading what hi fi and home cinema choice, they often say plasmas and lcd s still cannot match crt pq.

    Obviously crt tvs weigh a ton but check this link for example

    http://www.big-plasma-televisions.c...c_CT-30WX54_30_Diagonal_16:9_HDTV_Monitor.htm

    maybe im being daft but are there any?

    im just curious...
     
  2. rogeralpine

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    ...I was under the impression there were a couple on the market - but as I'm not looking to buy one, I've not really paid much attention.
     
  3. Starburst

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    Supply and demand. The US market for HD displays is a good three years ahead of the UK and the EU and therefore can support mutipule display technology.
    There is no dedicated UK source of HD programming here so what manufacturer is going to create UK models when the market would only be for a few people with HD1, DVHS etc. Also consider that those people would probably already have Projectors, LCD or Plasma panels all of which would give a bigger image than CRT is capable of.

    JVC have a HD CRT model, some one had to be first and if the price is right then it may be a viable alternative to a sub 42" LCD or Plasma although the differences between the technologies is probably more important than the price.

    When SKY and the BBC start offering mainstream HD programming then the market will expand and attract people who would look to a CRT based display although by that time LCD in particular should be very mature and good value for the smaller screen sizes.
     
  4. JayX

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    i have the JVC HD set. well one of them, there's 3 versions of mine (28" 32" and 36", i have the 28" cos i'm poor and have a small room :D) and there's another model again (mine is the HV28P37, the other model is something like the D40. someone on here has one tho)

    signal wise its capable of importing 525p 625p and 1125i (480p 576p and 1080i respectively) BUT whether its scaling down the 1080i signal is... unknown. to me anyway :) the fact its processing technology has the word Scaling in it, and it cannot be turned off might mean i'm not going to get the full 1080i lines. but i'm sure it'll be better than SDTV, otherwise there's no point (as i'm pretty sure virtually all HD equipment allows you to downscale to 625 lines on the fly). i haven't tested a 1080i source yet, but i can tell you that displaying a progressive source on it looks great (someone mentioned once its not *true* progressive, but it doesn't freak out on importing a progscan source, so its good enough for me!) the post processing is really rather impressive given the right signal. digital and analogue tv don't look great, but thats because in this country.. they all suck. dvd playback and game playback however, via the component in, look great. the amount of extra detail i was able to see on LOTR FOTR (in pal non-progscan as my dvdplayer is ntsc progscan only) was very obvious, and games via ntsc progscan in 480p also looked a lot better. the lack of 720p does hurt, as does the lack of HDMI/HDCP, but we're talking £360 (via allders on their 10% off day, and about the same at empire normally anyway) for a 28" tv that blows away LCDs any day of the week. so i'm a happy man!

    i've only had chance to play with it for a few hours, as its my xmas present (aww!) but i was able to throw a good few things at it, and was really happy. alas my XBMC on xbox was messing around and refused to boot into NTSC (i should've tested the new build properly before testing the tv) so i wasn't able to check out much in that, but lots of dvds and games... soul calibur 2 intro looks fabulous.
     
  5. Stephen Neal

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    I suspect that the JVC is scaling 576/50i and 480/60i to 1080/50i or 1080/60i respectively. It is probably re-interlacing the 576/50p and 480/60p to 1080/50i or 1080/60i as well I would imagine - so progressive stuff might look a bit better - but may not be being displayed progressively.

    I suspect the major benefit of feeding a set like this progressively is if the set scales to 1080/50p then interlaces to 1080/50i. If it interlaces the 576/50p stuff to 576/50i before scaling to 1080/50i then I suspect there is little gain to be had over linking via 576/50i component.

    The same may not be the case for 480/24p originated stuff though.

    Whilst the JVC is one of the few sets capable of being fed HD externally - the Sony CRT DRC sets also run in HD when running in DRC 50 mode I believe. When in DRC50 they line double the 576/50i stuff to 1152/50i I think (aka 1250/50), however they also have a DRC100 mode where they field double to 576/100i. (Note the line rates for both modes are the same)
     
  6. JayX

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    cheers for the post, interesting read. on the other thread, someone said the service menu reported the prog scan to be 900i.. so something totally different entirely!

    if only JVC made a more tech orientated manual along side the "how to get your tv working in 5 mins, ignore all that complex stuff it'll just go away" manuals we get these days. if its in "Clear English" its not telling you the full story :(
     
  7. Bob Todd

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    I doubt the JVC has a 1080 display, I would bet it has the same number of scan lines as any other CRT( 576).

    I would bet it down scales.
     
  8. JayX

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    well if the service menu is saying 900i , then that'll be post scaling. as stated earlier, there's just absolutely no reason to offer 1080i input if you're going to scale it back down to 576 lines... whatever it is you're hooking it up to would be able to do that (i can't think of ONE piece of HD equipment that doesn't allow you to scale down to SD)
     
  9. HarshKarma

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    There was a post in a different thread by a JVC tester stating that the resolution of the d40 is 2200 x 900. I think the p37 uses the same tube.
     
  10. JayX

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    thats not too bad at all then, still a good deal more than 576i, so no wonder it looks decent. thanks for clarifying that!

    not too far off 1080i then, still worth me playing with trying to pick up HD sats, then a few years later i'll buy a screen to reflect the "current" technology.
     
  11. beeblebrox12

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    That is plain wrong. The 900 part may be correct, meaning that it probably would be able to do 900 interlaced lines (nothing to do with 900 progressive lines of vertical resolution used to describe PC monitors). As for the horizontal resolution, that figure (2200) is just absurd, whatever it is supposed to mean. CRT technology cannot have exactly measured horizontal resolution, because it's analog. But there are certain tests that can give an idea of what resolution they are displaying comfortably, and they show that even the most expensive CRT set cannot deliver more detail beyond 1200 horizontal pixels, most of the sets less than that. In the sub $1000 price range it is arguable if any CRT set, especially small size direct view (not projection) can do even 1100 horizontal (the interlaced HTDV standard is 1920).
    The TV may be abe to receive 2200x900i resolution and display something, but so can most 17'' PC monitors worth $100. That has nothing to do with the realistic maximum resolution.
     
  12. jgrg

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    I researched this. There weren't any current UK models that support 720p, just a few that do 1080i (such as some of the Loewe models). I was thinking of getting a HDTV monitor and a scaler for DVD that I could use as a computer monitor too. (I even thought of buying the 24" Sony widescreen CRT that they no longer manufacture.)

    James
     
  13. Stephen Neal

    Stephen Neal
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    AIUI some of the JVC sets are compatible with 1080i inputs, so do these get scaled to 900i for display? (Yeuchy processing required - either field scaling, or de-interlacing, frame-scaling and re-interlacing?)


    (Out of interest it isn't 960i is it - which would be 480i line-doubled - and betray NTSC origins? The Sony DRC 50 mode runs 1152i I believe - 576i line doubled - aka 1250/50)

    As for horizontal resolutions - it is right that you can't give a cast iron horizontal resolution, however the make-up of most CRT direct-view screens is based on discrete phosphor dots (either shadow mask or aperture grille style) - which will be a limiting factor.

    AIUI only Sony market a domestic CRT model in the US which can display the full 1920 horizontal resolution (and it is a degree dimmer than the softer models that can run brighter because they can run with a larger, brighter, CRT dot - and have less loss due to grille area)
     
  14. HarshKarma

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    I feel like piggy in the middle... "2200 pixels by 900 lines" was the response from the JVC engineers when asked what the native display resolution of the 28d40 was. thread is here - page 9, post 127.

    Have you got a url for these tests, I'd be interested in having a read...
     
  15. Stephen Neal

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    Suspect the 2200x900 is the digital sampling system used to store and process the image - rather than the actual resolution of the picture tube.

    The previous poster is right that most HDTV CRT direct-view sets in the US don't display much above 1200 - though as I posted there is one model which significantly improves on this at the expense of brightness.

    Triple CRT projectors may well improve on direct-view CRTs though - as they don't have the shadow mask/aperture grille issue.
     
  16. Bob Todd

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    makes u wonder why the JVC doesnt get rated compared to the likes of Toshiba Crts
     
  17. Stephen Neal

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    The reviews I have seen were far from complimentary about its performance with SD sources - but then I've seen reviews that rave about Pixel Plus - and I've yet to find that at all watchable with a normal SD feed.
     
  18. JayX

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    stephen: i presume you're referring to the review on www.homecinemachoice.com ? it's not so much SD sources, but low bitrate sources such as uk digital tv. i did notice lots of flaws, but i'm sure i'll get used to it (this was running off a freeview box, i might try and hook up a scart connection out of my window to the NTL box downstairs in the new year :p or pop a dish outside my room) but SDTV/EDTV from dvd and game sources look fabulous. the processing is very good, the detail levels i was able to bring into LOTR in pal interlace (my player only does ntsc progscan) was clearly better than having them turned off.

    i mainly bought the tv for dvd and game use anyway, it's hooked up to my xbox which in turn is running XBMC and networked to a 350gb HDD array on the pc. wasn't able to test it out with low bitrate mpeg4 (which handles itself a lot better than low br mpeg2 at least!) but with a good signal its cracking. so really the actual problem lies with the broadcasters, but i guess tv sets are designed to cope with this. in the same was internet explorer on the pc is the cause of pretty much every problem, but people make their websites to comply to its own bizarre ruleset :)
     

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