Why no clarity with denon 1700h and acoustimass 10 series 4

Avr123

Novice Member
I've Bose Acoustimass 10 Series IV 5.1 since 2015. I will keep this for a long time before I want to sell it because of the current market.
I got my new denon 1700h 7.1.
Plus I bought 2 extra normal speakers for atmos. Down below are the technical specifications.

I am very disappointed why there's no clarity at all. The bass and mid tones are deep and satisfying but the treble, and that crispness isn't there. I had Onkyo TX-NR626 untill December last year since 2015 before and it did a better job with bass and clarity. I sold it as its an old Model.

These are what I've tried so far:
-firstly the connections are correct, so audessy is what I did with 6 different mic positions. The end effect was the sound was weak. Bass and treble were down.
-I disabled audessy but the same.
-I also removed the 2 Atmos speakers from the AVR to test. So it means also with Bose 5.1 speakers there was improvement in the higher frequencies.
-Amp assign were to the Top middle (those 2 extra speakers as recommended by denon manual)
-Manually tested for connections with sound test and all 7.1 channels are working fine.
-I figured other settings like compression, equalizer, etc. to improve and it did but when I compre it with my onkyo it's not the same. I wonder why.
-Updated the firmware. No improvement.
-so I reset to factory and started without audessy. Same issue.
-I tried playing 4k disk with Atmos Madmax. It worked and displayed atmos on the display screen. Bass is fine but still the treble and clarity is missing.
-factory reset again, updated. Same.
-The power outputs actually match. So I dont understand.
Please help.

Specifications:

Bose Acoustimass 10 Series IV: recommended power 10-200 watts with receivers rated from 4 to 8 ohms.

Plus I bought 2 brandless 130w speakers for Atmos elevated.

Denon 1700h Rated output:-
Front:
80 W + 80 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
120 W + 120 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.)

Center:
80 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
120 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.)

Surround:
80 W + 80 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
120 W + 120 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.)

Surround back:
80 W + 80 W (8 Ω/ohms, 20 Hz – 20 kHz with 0.08 % T.H.D.)
120 W + 120 W (6 Ω/ohms, 1 kHz with 0.7 % T.H.D.)
x018AM10S4S-o_sub2.jpeg
532ba070e738314f3109c849.jpeg
AVR-X1700H_1220x780-4.jpeg
 
Last edited:

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
Unfortunately the weakest link is your speakers and Bose bass module.

Buy wharfedale diamond 9.0 all round and sound quality will improve by large margin.

Bose use a cheap 2.5" driver to play wide range, they can't so there are multiple gaps in frequency range you're missing (highs and lows)

Your amp could be boulder monoblocs at £120,000 each but it won't improve the sound as Bose are pretty much one of the worst brands out there.
 

Avr123

Novice Member
weakest link is your speakers and Bose bass module.
Can you specify? The speakers as I wrote were performing perfect with Onkyo TX-NR626. The change happened with this new AVR.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
There is little point doing factory resets, that's isn't going to make any difference. The Denon may just be showing up your speakers as being poor. You have had the system in place with the Onkyo over many years and as such you've became use to the signature and the Denon is now showing up the failings in those speakers and sub.
 
D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
The only things I can recommend as to why you're seeing this delta between the two AVRs are:

1. Make sure Audyssey is on but make sure it is in FLAT setting and not REFERENCE, that makes treble brighter see if that works.

2. If not, I would suggest you look at the online guides and make sure that you're following the recommendations on how to run Audyssey (where to locate mic etc).

3. If that still doesn't work and you're using the Audyssey phone/tablet app, then artifically put treble boost curves in until you hear the response you're looking for.

4. If you're not using the app, so can't do that, you can still go into SETUP-AUDIO-MANUAL EQ and boost the treble frequencies manually until you achieve what you're looking for. Although that also switches off Audyssey.

Another possibility is that the speakers have been damaged at some point, if they have separate woofer and tweeters are you positive that both are still working in all speakers?
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
The only things I can recommend as to why you're seeing this delta between the two AVRs are:

1. Make sure Audyssey is on but make sure it is in FLAT setting and not REFERENCE, that makes treble brighter see if that works.

2. If not, I would suggest you look at the online guides and make sure that you're following the recommendations on how to run Audyssey (where to locate mic etc).

3. If that still doesn't work and you're using the Audyssey phone/tablet app, then artifically put treble boost curves in until you hear the response you're looking for.

4. If you're not using the app, so can't do that, you can still go into SETUP-AUDIO-MANUAL EQ and boost the treble frequencies manually until you achieve what you're looking for. Although that also switches off Audyssey.

Another possibility is that the speakers have been damaged at some point, if they have separate woofer and tweeters are you positive that both are still working in all speakers?

Bose are single cheap paper driver for mid and treble. They're not two way speakers.
 
D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
Bose are single cheap paper driver for mid and treble. They're not two way speakers.

Thanks RCcarguy, can't believe how much they charged for these things

@Avr123 whilst my suggestions above may help, I find it hard to believe with the Onkyo that you had any "clarity" or "treble crispness", see stats below from SoundandVision test many years ago for your "Twiddler" satellites:

1646831663569.png
 
D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
You might find that Audyssey may not work properly, as it is too confused, it may be trying to add as much EQ as possible to attain frequencies that the Twiddlers can't do. And, as such, heavily confusing the sound.
 

Avr123

Novice Member
The only things I can recommend as to why you're seeing this delta between the two AVRs are:

1. Make sure Audyssey is on but make sure it is in FLAT setting and not REFERENCE, that makes treble brighter see if that works.

2. If not, I would suggest you look at the online guides and make sure that you're following the recommendations on how to run Audyssey (where to locate mic etc).

3. If that still doesn't work and you're using the Audyssey phone/tablet app, then artifically put treble boost curves in until you hear the response you're looking for.

4. If you're not using the app, so can't do that, you can still go into SETUP-AUDIO-MANUAL EQ and boost the treble frequencies manually until you achieve what you're looking for. Although that also switches off Audyssey.

Another possibility is that the speakers have been damaged at some point, if they have separate woofer and tweeters are you positive that both are still working in all speakers?
I Tried using Audessey twice with different settings. Didnt help. BTW just checked Audessy App. WOW 19 Euros for Mobile. Not sure I want to buy this.
So, without Audessey on, I tried with equalizers on Denon and Also on my Mobile. I tried playing Music with FLAC, MP3 320kbps. Not effective enough. The Details of Guitar, cymbals in Jazz, Rock, all blurred. This wasnt the case with Onkyo.
 

Avr123

Novice Member
Thanks RCcarguy, can't believe how much they charged for these things

@Avr123 whilst my suggestions above may help, I find it hard to believe with the Onkyo that you had any "clarity" or "treble crispness", see stats below from SoundandVision test many years ago for your "Twiddler" satellites:

View attachment 1664956
I am not a tech guy and understand the specifications very, very little. This is why I am here :) But what does it mean?

BTW Onkyo could actually achieve all this. So I am confused why Denon is unable to.
 
D

Deleted member 901590

Guest
I am not a tech guy and understand the specifications very, very little. This is why I am here :) But what does it mean?

BTW Onkyo could actually achieve all this. So I am confused why Denon is unable to.

Your satellite speakers are missing 1000s of Hertz of frequency range that is really important.

As already said on here, you would at minimum have speakers capable of up to 20kHz.

For example, if you need little tiny cubes for speakers then the Monitor Audio Mass or Cambridge Audio Minx would do a much better job at adding "treble clarity".

I don't understand why the Onkyo seemed ok with them. Could be as Gibbsy has suggested.

As your in Germany, Heco may do some small speakers, I've had quite a few Hecos before and Enjoyed them. If you get some better speakers, I'm sure you would be overwhelmed at the sudden clarity and brightness you hear compared to what you have.
 
I Tried using Audessey twice with different settings. Didnt help. BTW just checked Audessy App. WOW 19 Euros for Mobile. Not sure I want to buy this.
So, without Audessey on, I tried with equalizers on Denon and Also on my Mobile. I tried playing Music with FLAC, MP3 320kbps. Not effective enough. The Details of Guitar, cymbals in Jazz, Rock, all blurred. This wasnt the case with Onkyo.
You can get the app for free if you're on Android with a quick Google search
 

Avr123

Novice Member
Your satellite speakers are missing 1000s of Hertz of frequency range that is really important.

As already said on here, you would at minimum have speakers capable of up to 20kHz.

For example, if you need little tiny cubes for speakers then the Monitor Audio Mass or Cambridge Audio Minx would do a much better job at adding "treble clarity".

I don't understand why the Onkyo seemed ok with them. Could be as Gibbsy has suggested.

As your in Germany, Heco may do some small speakers, I've had quite a few Hecos before and Enjoyed them. If you get some better speakers, I'm sure you would be overwhelmed at the sudden clarity and brightness you hear compared to what you have.
Thank you AEIOU and others as well. Not sure if I am going to buy anything else. If it worked before, it has to work somehow with Denon as well. I am sure there is a solution which we do not see now.
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
Thank you AEIOU and others as well. Not sure if I am going to buy anything else. If it worked before, it has to work somehow with Denon as well. I am sure there is a solution which we do not see now.

Go and listen to £500 system above and it'll outclass the Bose, there is no point trying to stick with a speaker system like that.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Thank you AEIOU and others as well. Not sure if I am going to buy anything else. If it worked before, it has to work somehow with Denon as well. I am sure there is a solution which we do not see now.


Your speakers are really low-end performance wise so any decent AV equipment is going to struggle to make them sound good.

Trying to evaluate the performance of a Denon receiver with your current speakers is silly as they're in many ways just not compatible.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
How much did you pay for your Denon? You'd be much better off having invested the money in new speakers and a cheaper second hand AVR/amplifier first.
 

Avr123

Novice Member
Thanks RCcarguy, can't believe how much they charged for these things

@Avr123 whilst my suggestions above may help, I find it hard to believe with the Onkyo that you had any "clarity" or "treble crispness", see stats below from SoundandVision test many years ago for your "Twiddler" satellites:

View attachment 1664956
I wish I could understand these Specs. But I trust your advice. Thanks
 

Avr123

Novice Member
Ok so I've prepared to sell my 5.1. And planning to buy a powerful 7.1 Speaker system within my budget: 700Euros, which should match to my Denon 1700h. Could you advice? I really appreciate all of your response. Thank you very much
 

rccarguy2

Distinguished Member
I wish I could understand these Specs. But I trust your advice. Thanks

Basically means the high frequency are missing. Also being small drivers means they don't go that low so lack bass.
 

Jay53

Well-known Member
I appreciate the bose twiddlers don't have a wide frequency range but we also have to take into account the twiddlers unlike conventional 5.1 sub/sat configs are not connected directly to the AVR.

They are designed to work connected through the accoustimass module which does its own filtering.

This module handles a wider Freq and the traditional set of sub rules about setting speakers to small goes out the window as it needs them to be set to large to work correctly.

This is so that the accoustimass module gets the full range for each of the LCR, LS and RS connected to it and can then do its own filtering which given the twiddler stats above it is handling sub 280hz (and likely a bit higher to account for roll off) passing the rest to the twiddlers to handle.

I would personally set all speakers to large that are connected through the accoustimass module and re-run audessy and see what you get.
 

Avr123

Novice Member
I appreciate the bose twiddlers don't have a wide frequency range but we also have to take into account the twiddlers unlike conventional 5.1 sub/sat configs are not connected directly to the AVR.

They are designed to work connected through the accoustimass module which does its own filtering.

This module handles a wider Freq and the traditional set of sub rules about setting speakers to small goes out the window as it needs them to be set to large to work correctly.

This is so that the accoustimass module gets the full range for each of the LCR, LS and RS connected to it and can then do its own filtering which given the twiddler stats above it is handling sub 280hz (and likely a bit higher to account for roll off) passing the rest to the twiddlers to handle.

I would personally set all speakers to large that are connected through the accoustimass module and re-run audessy and see what you get.
I tried changing the speakers to large for Audessy and without Audessy on. It did not make a difference
 

Avr123

Novice Member
Does anyone recommend or have experience with a powerful 7.1 speaker system with great bass but within the budget compatible with denon 1700h?
 

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