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Why is scaled output from a dvd player illegal?

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by cybersoga, Nov 11, 2003.

  1. cybersoga

    cybersoga
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    I don't understand why anolouge component scaled output is illegal for manufacturers of dvd players to impliment, when you can use an external scaler that does the same thing? PC's can do it too. Is this a conspiracy to sell external scalers? Or is it because hollywood is afraid of how good dvd's can look on a big screen? If it's copy protection, why would scaled output be any easier to copy than 480p/576p and why would anyone want to use anologue outputs to make a copy of a dvd with what pc's can do?

    Another thought: why doesn't anyone make a DVD player that decodes, deinterlaces and scales the image digitally before it ever hits a dac?
     
  2. Dimmy

    Dimmy
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    I'm guessing it's because the governing body, the DVD Forum, hasn't approved of it yet?
     
  3. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Exactly. It's not approved yet. Also there are DVD players that do all those things and send out signal digitally. Are they any good though.......

    Gordon
     
  4. cybersoga

    cybersoga
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    I think i'm right in thinking an external scaler has to convert the anologue picture back to digital (ADC), deinterlace & scale and it then converts to anologue again (DAC) for output. Is it simply a matter of time before there's a dvd player that will decode, scale and deinterlace digitally then pass to the dac for anologue output (component whether that's YPbPr or RGBHV)?
     
  5. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    I don't thinnk you're going to get any that will scale then have analogue outputs as they aren't, afaik, planning on adding CP for that to the licence. They want to keep everything digital.

    In youR scenario you'd have to then go back from analogue to digital anyway once it went to the display I'd think. (unless it was a CRT PJ)

    By doing processing in the source you will be limited to the de-interlcaing and scaling performance of what is inside that machine. If it's a mass market DVD player that may not be too great.

    Gordon
     
  6. John Dawson

    John Dawson
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    All video outputs from DVD players have to have agreed copy protection applied to them if they replay content protected material (i.e. most commercial DVDs).

    Macrovision CP is the standard for analogue video and is only defined for 480i/576i and more recently 480p then 576p component video. AFAIK it has never been defined for higher (scaled) video standards from DVD therefore they are not in the list of permitted outputs in the CSS (content scramble system) licence which all legitimate DVD player manufacturers must sign.

    IMO there is zero hope that any such legal standards will ever be agreed for analogue video - most likely it will in future go digital with HDCP (high definition digital copy protection). This is sufficiently sophisticated that individual keys in products can be revoked in the future should any be hacked or otherwise released into the public domain. And once HDCP has been applied to a signal it cannot legally be made accessible anywhere down the chain without HDCP.

    Incidentally PCs got an exemption for their VGA output for legacy reasons but if a PC also has normal consumer video outputs then these have to follow the DVD player rules.

    HTH.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  7. cybersoga

    cybersoga
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    Very interesting guys, thanks.
     
  8. EmuMannen

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    The Momitsu/Brainwave V880 (and several other players) is already scaling DVD (PAL and NTSC) to 720p, 1080i and "custom resolutions" outputting it as YPbPr, RGBHV and DVI. It also got a handy secret menu to disable region-, Macrovision- and HDCP protection.

    The manufacturers of these new “Pseudo HDTV Output” DVD-players got one thing in common. They tend to honour the customers demand instead of any governing body.

    Ps. The upcoming V880N from Manowa is announced to even incorporate capture of analogue sources and output it as scaled digital picture. It will also support connections trough USB, PCMCIA, LAN and WLAN etc.

    Reference to DVD-V880 MP4 DVD Player
    Reference to DVD-V880N Network MP4 DVD Player
     
  9. cybersoga

    cybersoga
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    The thing is though, those chinese players are usually poorly made and have poor deinterlacing performance...
     
  10. EmuMannen

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    The thing is that the deinterlacing of the Brainwave V880 is on par with the DCDi circuitry in my TW100! It is actually doing a better job at times but so does DCDi. I only had to pay €145 Euro for the player so I didn’t expect rock solid quality. The firmware is upgradeable and it is getting better for every new release (and Manowa is actually making new and better releases unlike many other manufacturers). The DVD-transport is also using a plain vanilla IDE and power interface. So it is easy to modify it with a new transport of higher quality if you want to tweak it further.

    Quality issues or not, it is delivering 95% of the picture quality from my HTPC (2.5GHz, ATI 9200 TheaterTek) but to a fraction of its cost and heavy maintenance. I will probably stick to these low cost; easy to operate Chinese players as long as they deliver the kind of functionality and picture quality I want. Especially when they are offering them for ridiculously low prices, but I am actually prepared to pay a lot more if the build quality is improved to the standard of the well-known manufacturers!
     
  11. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    I have a huge interest in all these connections but to date SDI is the only connection I would endorse outside of good quality analogue outputs. DVI (HDCP) or more likely HDMI may off a decent solution but ONLY if done correctly. To date I have seen NO such implementations, others far more knowledgeable than me in this field say a similar thing.

    To all those who saw my component vs SDI demo at Event 11, there ain’t much in it! And this was with a cheap analogue output and a chroma bug free SDI mod. This as good as digital gets and a basic analogue output.

    Digital is being driven forward for reasons other than quality. Unless an interlaced signal is outputted to the ‘premium scaler’ to do it’s bizz, you are limited by both the chip sets used and how they are implemented. To date these ‘chinese’ players leave much to be desired in the engineering states and the de interlacing chips used are pretty bottom of the market. At the Event we showed four de interlacing methods, these discussed players would sit firmly in the bottom half (DCDi and line doubling type technologies) of what we showed. Proprietary solutions like KD (or Rock etc) and SIL 504 are much better.

    We are a long way from decent performing digital links at the moment (except SDI) and I don’t expect anything really to change until 2005 at the earliest.
     
  12. Lefreck

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    :clap: Completely agree with you. After testing a brainwave mine should be on its way:D At last no more overscan issues with my TW100:smashin: Do you have custom DVI-settings for Pal-Dvds. I have found some that work for 50Hz, but if you have others (also via pm)...
     
  13. EmuMannen

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    The Beekeeper, I agree to some extent but if you can get 90% of the quality for 10% of the cost why even hesitate? :kisses:
     
  14. Captain chaos

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    Sorry to sound like an idiot, but hasn't the new Pioneer 868i DVD player got a TREX scaler on board?
     
  15. Nic Rhodes

    Nic Rhodes
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    But SDI currently gives 100% for even less money, the current other digital solutions aren't getting close to what we have had for years now. This isn't going forward, it is a weird move up some side alley until we get premium HDMI done correctly
     
  16. NaTT

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    If this is so, then a firmware upgrade to this DVD player's menu, could add a "TV" line item and then everything could be managed from your DVD player (with a PC on the network for storage, as I think this doesn't have a hard disk -and rightly so). RIP the humble HCPC, what's the point at this price?

    OK so it can't handle recording TV. But I don't. So where can you import these from? :lease:
     
  17. HouseofMu

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    Beekeeper, so just what is a "premium HDMI done correctly" ?

    Would you class the current best HDMI players (Pioneer 868 and Arcam DV79) as being poor 'deinterlacers'?

    I'd be interested in knowing the setup of your SDI solution you refer too. Would you be willing to detail (players/connections/boxes/mods etc) inorder to get this HDMI beating setup?

    Cheers

    neil.
     
  18. Brogan

    Brogan
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    It most certainly does....which is nice. :)
    Unfortunately, the 504 resolution doesn't match any of the 868 outputs so the image still has to be scaled either vertically and/or horizontally... :rolleyes:
     
  19. philipb

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    FWIW, I have a Momitsu hooked up to a Pioneer 433MXE; also a Denon 2900 modded for SDI connected to a PC SDI capture card and then to the same 433 via VGA.

    So I can compare performance literally side by side. PQ from the Momitsu is right up there with the 2900. The Momitsu outputs at 768p to the Pioneer.

    So why do I prefer the 2900? It looks great :blush: ; built like a tank compared to the fag packet quality of the Momitsu; plays my collection of DVD Audio as well as video and SACD; and the sound output is light years ahead of the Momitsu.

    If I did not have the 2900 I would be more than happy with the performance of the 880, at least picture wise. I don't have the technical know-how of many of you posting here, just the evidence of my own eyes.

    and BTW I also have Theatertek on the PC, and to my eyes you can't get a fag paper between all three of them PQ wise. They're all excellent.
     
  20. NaTT

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    philip, do you perhaps smoke?

    anyway has anyone spotted where you can import a Reference to DVD-V880N Network MP4 DVD Player from yet?
    preferably with the optional analogue input port.
     

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