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Why is do I get a poorer picture in Proressive?

Discussion in 'Plasma TVs' started by JimE, May 12, 2005.

  1. JimE

    JimE
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    I've owned a Panasonic PW6 for 6 Months.
    I was feeding it from a Denon 2200 in Progressive (via component) and was very happy with the results.
    Unfortunately the 2200 had to be changed, due to fact that it wouldn't play certain disks. Denon changed it for a 2910.
    It was then that I noticed several flaws in the picture.

    It struggles to handle colour gradients i.e. solid colours, going from light to darkness. (Like the red on the selection Menu of "The Incredibles")

    Also in certain dark scenes, where it sometimes goes blocky.

    What I find strangest though, is that I'm getting a better image, when I switch the Denon to 'interlaced mode'.
    Especially in the dark areas. Where in Progressive mode, dark areas have a red blockyness to them.
    A good example of this is in chapter 6 of "The Incredibles", Mr Incred' is chatting to Mr Ice in a car, at night.

    I've sent, both the Denon and the Panasonic back (the Pany actually to Pansonic itself) and have both been given a clean bill of health.
    I'm now waiting for the Plasma to be sent back.

    Was the Denon 2200 a much better player, or have I just become used to the scale of picture and become too picky?
    Does anybody know what's going on?
    Ps I have tried my Denon on another panel , and pic was OK
     
  2. is1111

    is1111
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    hi according to most of the experts on here , the plasma screen actually converts the dvd picture to progressive so it may be that the plasma is doing a better job of converting the image to progressive than the dvd player is.
    anytime this question has come up regarding progressive output from dvd player the answer always seems to be check the picture when dvd is outputting progressive and then check when it outputs interlaced and stick to whichever one you personally think is best.
     
  3. Mep

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    i have seen talk of macroblocking with a 2910 paired with a panny 6...which 'i think' is what you are describing but i don't see it with my 2910 / pwd7...what firmware version is your 2910?
     
  4. Mep

    Mep
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    is1111, that is correct but in this case the 2910 should be doing it better than the screen
     
  5. hornydragon

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    Why should the 2910 be better than the Panny? all the effort in the 2910 went into that stupid HDMI output the 2900 was the best player (have a search), but i think you may have been better off with the 2200 apart from disc compatibility issues.
    Dont get me wrong the 2910 is a great player, but its not the best that there has ever been or ever will be.
     
  6. Mep

    Mep
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    well i find it better in progressive horny hence the comment whereas with the dvd22 and e55 before i found it better off
     
  7. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    LOL just testing.....mep. The prog on/off option is a very contentious issue, but you do have a 7 not a 6........There are compatibility issues between some devices which in isolation work 100%. If you are happy with PS off just keep it that way and dont worry.
     
  8. MAW

    MAW
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    I'd agree the 2910 is nowhere near the 2900 on analogue component, you can get better analogue output on other players these days for less money.
     
  9. Mep

    Mep
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    i was just going to get my handbag!! :)......to be honest its a tough call but i think its better with it on...but as you say it's with a 7 not a 6
     
  10. Mep

    Mep
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    Martin!..behave...I like my 2910....don't go dissin' it ;-)
     
  11. leeboy22001

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    i can't see why the quality of the progressive output should be any different or worse in this case to that of the interlaced output as the dvd is encoded in progressive format anyway :confused: and the interlaced output is always generated from the progressive video decoded from the dvd player! also when a progressive display converts the interlace source back into progressive its having to interperpolate the new lines back again plus other filtering etc... and in theory you loose vertical resolution!? am i missing something? maybe denon do it differently and somehow decided in a bazer fashion to generate progressive from an interlaced video already converted from progressive!??? :suicide:
     
  12. Steve_P

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    I know I am using different equipment to yourself but I have found the same thing.

    I've pretty much come to the same conclusion myself with my own equipment (37" Viera TH-37PE30 & DMR-E500). The leap in quality from dropping RGB-SCART and upgrading to component was fairly significant and I was impressed. However, when looking at differences in picture quality between my DVD recorder with an interlaced output and progressive output, in reality I find that the progressive output of the E500 actually looks worse when compared to the interlaced output. So it looks like in my case the Viera is better at de-interlacing a picture than the E500 is.

    S.
     
  13. Mep

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    i thought dvds were interlaced!
     
  14. JimE

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    Hi, thanks for repling
    Yeah I thought that,so had it checked and updated.
     
  15. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    I think DVD use 4.2.2 which is interlaced YCbCr IIRC Gordon or Joe will be along i am sure....
     
  16. JimE

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    Yeah, weird isn't it?
     
  17. mark.king

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    I have a pw6 what's a good dvd player to get then using component outs? I don't want second hand as I just don't trust them. If I get just component then am looking up to £500
     
  18. hornydragon

    hornydragon
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    Arcam DV88+/89 if you can find one or Tosh SD9000E think last few SD9000s just went on ebay...
     
  19. mark.king

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    Will have a look about cheers
     
  20. Orangelo

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    I'm not Gordon nor Joe but DVDs are indeed coded in interlaced component video format. 4:2:2 is just the sampling rate, it does not imply anything else, at least in theory. In 4:2:2 Croma (Cb, Cr) is sampled at half the frequency than Luma (Y), in order to save space / badwidth. As part of the process of generating a video signal that a Plasma panel can display, the Chroma needs to be upsampled (4:4:4) and colorspace converted to RGB. Bad upsampling may lead to the infamous CUE (chroma upsampling error or chroma bug), a blockiness that is very apparent in reds.
     
  21. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    DVD's are encoded as 4:2:0 YUV. It comes out the MPEG decoder as 4:2:2 and it's the conversion from the 0 to the 2 that is the cause of the dreaded Chroma Upsampling Error.

    Gordon
     
  22. Orangelo

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    That's is quite right, I confused the numbers :rolleyes:
     
  23. leeboy22001

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    4:2:2 is the sampling ratio of YCrCb, where Y has twice the samping rate of both Cr and Cb, and therefore Y has twice the bandwidth as Cr and Cb, 4:4:4 means all video channels have the sample bandwidth in RGB format. In a normal video sampling system, the video is sampled at 54MHz:27MHz:27MHz(8:4:4), and is then decimated to 4:2:2. the sampling format has no relevance to interlaced or progressive video. If you look at the dvd info on a PC with say WinDVD or so you will notice that the video format is 576p @ 24 frames/sec. Thinking about it the quality of the output video would be downto the frame rate conversion of 24P to 60P.
     
  24. Orangelo

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    There is no 24-60 frame rate conversion with PAL, leeboy22001, video playback is accerelated by 4% (25fps) and each frame displayed twice at 50hz refresh rate. That's why the audio in PAL films has a higher pitch.
     
  25. leeboy22001

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    apologies orangelo, just realised i kind of repeated what you said earlier :oops: and made a typo of 60P when it should have been 50P another :oops:
     
  26. hornydragon

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    Got my MPEG-2 and DVD code the wrong way round........but its still interlaced....
     
  27. Eddy Boy

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    It depends on how the conversion has been done from interlaced to progressive. You may have heard of 3:2 pull down, this is were a single interlaced frame is repeated three times then the second frame twice and so on. Then the first and second new frames are put together then the third and forth etc.

    Some machines are clever and will go in and remove the third frame to even it out. Some are not so clever.

    I do have a link that explains this better, i'll find it on monday.
     
  28. Orangelo

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    No pulldown in PAL, mate, video playback is accelerated instead. Pulldown applies to NTSC only. There are two ways to deal with it, deinterlacing and inverse telecine. Deinterlacing will show you 60hz progressive video, but you will still 3:2 judder in playback. Inverse telecine indeed removes the 3rd frame, but you need a 48hz capable display to do that. If you can afford it, it's the closest thing to cinema in terms of framerate, playback speed and correct audio picth.
     
  29. Unlight

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    Well, I've just had a look at "The Incredibles" on my setup which is the same as yours (2910 and PW6) and to be honest, my picture is absolutely perfect. No Macroblocking on dark scenes, and the menu screens (bright red) are absolutely spot on as well.

    It is worth mentioning that I also got a loan of the Denon 2900 before buying the 2910, and in my eyes the 2910 outperforms the 2900 via an analogue connection!

    Have you tried updating to the latest firmware?
     
  30. Eddy Boy

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    Ok sorry if i have that mixed :oops:
    Found the link anyway.
    http://www.mandarinpictures.com/stephenzinn/
     

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