Why in 2022 Oculus will try to break back into PCVR a second time.

JustinTheNick

Standard Member
@MikeKay1976 I think the problem is going to drag on into latter half of next year but I hope I'm being pessimistic. I'm not paying more than £1,000 for any GPU, no matter how good!

@thesnowdog yeah, I haven't really played around much with Virtual Desktop for PC wireless as I'm more likely to sit for the PC games I play but native Quest games are a lot of fun and seem to be designed more with movement in mind... I guess the devs know the users all have that freedom that the hardware gives them. I probably need a bigger space to make the most of it.
 

PodJim

Active Member
Regarding wireless, until I actually tried playing wireless I didn't think it was a big deal. But now I've experienced wireless goodness I find it difficult going back to a wire now. 😲

I'm the same. I didn't realise how aware of the cable I always was. Making sure I didnt twist it or stretch it too much. With wireless you can immerse yourself more. I don't have to think about what way I'm facing in the real world any more.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
@kenshingintoki It depends on the games you play. I really rate touch, more than you it seems, I find them comfy and do what I need of them.... But that said ultimately I am not really a full room vr gamer as shown by my untouched collection of quality titles. If there was 1 feature I could nick from the index and stick on my G2 it would not be the controllers. It would be the FOV even with the modded faceplate the index still beats the G2 in that regard.
What I would really like in PCVR games would be combined hand tracking and stearing wheel / hotas support in racing and flight Sims that way I can use my proper hotas for instance but also flick all the switches and what not in my plane.

But I am not saying you are wrong at all, different customers have different priorities.

My last 3 vr headsets I would say 90% of their use is in elite, 5% in eurotruck sim 2 and racing games and then 5% on everything else combined (and that includes standard pad games as well as motion controllers)
Going forward.i plan to put some time into MSFS 2020 but again I won't need VR controllers for that)
The truth is as much as I moaned about disliking the vive wands (and I really do) the fact of the matter is it would hypothetically have been a mistake for.me personally to have ignored a VR package because of those.


Have you used Index controllers?

I've used both so in my experience, the Touch controllers are like plastic toys compare to Index controllers.

Its not to say the Touch are bad, they're just generations behind which makes sense because they haven't been updated (positively) since CV1. They're simply put generation-old controllers.


This is the same as me saying my Arendal speakers are light years ahead of my PC speakers I got off Amazon for £250. Utlimately its not a fair comparison because one is 5-10x the price of the other.
 

JustinTheNick

Standard Member
For me the controllers are very important and I'd probably not talk in terms of generations but more about what makes a controller good for me. With speakers, what makes them good is simple, it's just how they sound... plus having a nice cabinet and depending on the room that they're in, the size as I tend to go for an unobtrusive look. I've always loved my cherry Ruark Icons but then my living room isn't big and they're a good match for my old Yamaha stuff

Anyway, with controllers I haven't tried the Index Knuckles so would probably need some details to decide if they're better.

For me weight is important for several reasons, I want the least amount of reminding that I'm using controllers during VR so for me lighter is better, also small, fast movement is better, the lighter the controller, lets call that the human element of the response time.

Other reminders are the pressure that you're having to use to grip, generally, the light the controller, the less pressure. The knuckles have that strap thing, for me that's either good or bad depending on your preference for being reminded that the controllers are there... compared to the function that they bring to the table. Are many games making use of that function? I have no idea.

Battery life and type is probably my second concern for a controller, I don't really want to have to remember to have the controllers on charge after every session just so they're ready if and when I want to play. I'd much rather forget about it and pick up and play whenever. I think I get something approaching 40 hours of continuous use from the Touch battery and I have a spare pair of batteries charged and ready to swap in if I get a battery warning during play. How does that compare to Knuckles?

Lastly build quality, is there any measurable difference in build quality in terms of failures reported?

I think all these things are how I personally judge the controllers.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
For me the controllers are very important and I'd probably not talk in terms of generations but more about what makes a controller good for me. With speakers, what makes them good is simple, it's just how they sound... plus having a nice cabinet and depending on the room that they're in, the size as I tend to go for an unobtrusive look. I've always loved my cherry Ruark Icons but then my living room isn't big and they're a good match for my old Yamaha stuff

Anyway, with controllers I haven't tried the Index Knuckles so would probably need some details to decide if they're better.

For me weight is important for several reasons, I want the least amount of reminding that I'm using controllers during VR so for me lighter is better, also small, fast movement is better, the lighter the controller, lets call that the human element of the response time.

Other reminders are the pressure that you're having to use to grip, generally, the light the controller, the less pressure. The knuckles have that strap thing, for me that's either good or bad depending on your preference for being reminded that the controllers are there... compared to the function that they bring to the table. Are many games making use of that function? I have no idea.

Battery life and type is probably my second concern for a controller, I don't really want to have to remember to have the controllers on charge after every session just so they're ready if and when I want to play. I'd much rather forget about it and pick up and play whenever. I think I get something approaching 40 hours of continuous use from the Touch battery and I have a spare pair of batteries charged and ready to swap in if I get a battery warning during play. How does that compare to Knuckles?

Lastly build quality, is there any measurable difference in build quality in terms of failures reported?

I think all these things are how I personally judge the controllers.


Try them. I hate having this discussion as its just easier to handle the Index controllers and the answer becomes obvious. They are light years ahead re: technology, capabilities, immersion,. controller input methods etc.

Yes, there is such thing as preference. Some people prefer their 1080p 24'' PC monitor to a 77'' OLED but I think we still know which one is more superior.



In short to go over my personal experience with BOTH controllers:

The Index has:
1. Better silky smooth finish of the controllers with better grip
2. Touchpad which allows for far more controller input methods
3. More buttons which are customisable for more actions
4. Finger tracking which is a next generation fidelity of immersion and allows for far more complex gestures and movements in games which support thewm
5. Better haptic motors
6. Built in haptics within the triggers when you half press
7. A grip around the controller which allows you to let go of the controllers and feel fully immersed in the VR world
etc. etc.

Relaibility wise, the Touch controllers are awesome. Why are they so reliable? Because there are fewer points of failure because the controllers are very simple and accomplish very little compared to the Index controllers. If you want reliable, go Touch but you lose out on all the advantages of the Index controllers.

In my personal experience, the reliability of the Index controllers is not good.

However going from the Touch controllers to Index controllers is like going from a PS2 to a PS4. The difference is immense, to the extent its almost unfair to even compare.
 

MikeKay1976

Distinguished Member
I have held the index controllers but not used them. Thanks to a year of lockdown with just a small break in the middle I have been unable to go into the houses of my 2 mates with them.

I am not arguing that index are a better controller .... Like you say they are a generation ahead and cost an order of magnitude more.....

Just that for the games I mostly play they would be gathering dust (just like my touch and G2 controllers). The amount of use I get warrants owning touch and paying the extra for the G2 with controllers (it was pennies considering the preorder discount).

However it would not be worth me paying for index controllers personally.
If they come as a free pack in with a future headset or cost under £100 as an optional extra I will get them.
 

JustinTheNick

Standard Member
Try them. I hate having this discussion as its just easier to handle the Index controllers and the answer becomes obvious. They are light years ahead re: technology, capabilities, immersion,. controller input methods etc.

Yes, there is such thing as preference. Some people prefer their 1080p 24'' PC monitor to a 77'' OLED but I think we still know which one is more superior.



In short to go over my personal experience with BOTH controllers:

The Index has:
1. Better silky smooth finish of the controllers with better grip
2. Touchpad which allows for far more controller input methods
3. More buttons which are customisable for more actions
4. Finger tracking which is a next generation fidelity of immersion and allows for far more complex gestures and movements in games which support thewm
5. Better haptic motors
6. Built in haptics within the triggers when you half press
7. A grip around the controller which allows you to let go of the controllers and feel fully immersed in the VR world
etc. etc.

Relaibility wise, the Touch controllers are awesome. Why are they so reliable? Because there are fewer points of failure because the controllers are very simple and accomplish very little compared to the Index controllers. If you want reliable, go Touch but you lose out on all the advantages of the Index controllers.

In my personal experience, the reliability of the Index controllers is not good.

However going from the Touch controllers to Index controllers is like going from a PS2 to a PS4. The difference is immense, to the extent its almost unfair to even compare.
I seldom hate conversations that are interesting, well I'm not really that emotional when it comes to tech, just list out my ideals then try and have them fulfilled. Your analogies to other things that are very different to make you point is understandable, but the problem with analogies is they're often skewed to suit the argument rather than truly analogous.

For example no-one that I know of prefers a 1080p 24" PC monitor to a 77" OLED screen for movie viewing, probably a 32" 4K screen is ideal for gaming depending on distance to the screen. I think, analogies are probably more problematic than they are useful.

OK so silky smooth and better grip? I like the partially rubberised, small hatched texture on the front of the touches where you need to grip and smooth on the palm where you need to constantly move the ball of your thumb across it during play without rubbing so I think somebody's considered the textures used and I probably would have made the same decision.

Is the Touchpad commonly used? it's an interesting thing but maybe some examples of the kind of things you use it for, I mean commonly use it for rather than things you could use it for if you wanted. The size of the area used for controls is something that's important, the more controls, the bigger the area you need for them, that means the larger the grip at the top around these controls and the more you need to move your thumb.

These are all design consideration that don't necessarily mean one is light years ahead or behind, just different decisions.

Finger gestures are great if you use them, do you use them? what games do you play the most, out of interest? Personally I'm into first person adventure stuff and simming when I feel more like racing and flying. Social VR benefits hugely from gesturing but then hand tracking is ideal for that. So I'd rather the controllers concentrated on what I use them for... but as I say, if you use gesturing in games I'm definitely interested in what games.

No idea about the haptic motors used in either controllers, would need to see the specs and use cases. I'm sure having tried both you're giving an unbiased opinion but gong back to the analogies, there's a a very tiny risk of exaggeration to make a point I think.

Trigger haptics could be a good thing, has that aver been used in a regular non-VR joystick? I'm guessing it must have been if it had been thought to be useful? I know the latest PS controllers have variable resistance to simulate bow strings pull etc. but then you're using the triggers to do that with a PS, whereas you'd be pulling your arm back in VR so maybe that wouldn't really be useful either.

The knuckle grips provide better immersion for throwing objects so if the game has a lot of throwing it would definitely be better. Whilst your not throwing however, the straps are an added sensation that the controller is in your hand. When you let go, how are the controllers stabilised in your hand? Don't you still need to grip them for accurate tracking when moving your hand about? and presumably you still need to grip them when using any of the thumb controls, whether you're holding something in VR or not. Overall I'd rather the straps weren't there, to the point that they're something that would put me off adopting them.

I think the bottom line is people have different preference which don't necessarily equate to a preference for a 1080p monitor compared to 77" OLED, it's just they consider different things to be important.
 
Last edited:

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I seldom hate conversations that are interesting, well I'm not really that emotional when it comes to tech, just list out my ideals then try and have them fulfilled. Your analogies to other things that are very different to make you point is understandable, but the problem with analogies is they're often skewed to suit the argument rather than truly analogous.

For example no-one that I know of prefers a 1080p 24" PC monitor to a 77" OLED screen for movie viewing, probably a 32" 4K screen is ideal for gaming depending on distance to the screen. I think, analogies are probably more problematic than they are useful.

OK so silky smooth and better grip? I like the partially rubberised, small hatched texture on the front of the touches where you need to grip and smooth on the palm where you need to constantly move the ball of your thumb across it during play without rubbing so I think somebody's considered the textures used and I probably would have made the same decision.

Is the Touchpad commonly used? it's an interesting thing but maybe some examples of the kind of things you use it for, I mean commonly use it for rather than things you could use it for if you wanted. The size of the area used for controls is something that's important, the more controls, the bigger the area you need for them, that means the larger the grip at the top around these controls and the more you need to move your thumb.

These are all design consideration that don't necessarily mean one is light years ahead or behind, just different decisions.

Finger gestures are great if you use them, do you use them? what games do you play the most, out of interest? Personally I'm into first person adventure stuff and simming when I feel more like racing and flying. Social VR benefits hugely from gesturing but then hand tracking is ideal for that. So I'd rather the controllers concentrated on what I use them for... but as I say, if you use gesturing in games I'm definitely interested in what games.

No idea about the haptic motors used in either controllers, would need to see the specs and use cases. I'm sure having tried both you're giving an unbiased opinion but gong back to the analogies, there's a a very tiny risk of exaggeration to make a point I think.

Trigger haptics could be a good thing, has that aver been used in a regular non-VR joystick? I'm guessing it must have been if it had been thought to be useful? I know the latest PS controllers have variable resistance to simulate bow strings pull etc. but then you're using the triggers to do that with a PS, whereas you'd be pulling your arm back in VR so maybe that wouldn't really be useful either.

The knuckle grips provide better immersion for throwing objects so if the game has a lot of throwing it would definitely be better. Whilst your not throwing however, the straps are an added sensation that the controller is in your hand. When you let go, how are the controllers stabilised in your hand? Don't you still need to grip them for accurate tracking when moving your hand about? and presumably you still need to grip them when using any of the thumb controls, whether you're holding something in VR or not. Overall I'd rather the straps weren't there, to the point that they're something that would put me off adopting them.

I think the bottom line is people have different preference which don't necessarily equate to a preference for a 1080p monitor compared to 77" OLED, it's just they consider different things to be important.


I'm sorry but you're just dressing up the shortcomings of the Touch controllers as positives and downplaying the blatant advantages of the Index controllers.

Just buy an Index, and compare it to an Oculus setup. That's what I've tried to do for every single VR product I critique. I've owned from Ocuus the CV1, Rift S and Quest 1. I've had time with the touch controllers and know their positives and limitations. Similarly I have an Index and have played both back to back, comparing controllers and the difference is massive.

I have a massive dislike for opening up these paper-debates when the answer is so painfully obvious if someone could just handle and use both products. Neither is perfect but one is so far more technoligically advanced and next generation that its painful to even see this as a debate.

Which someone prefers is... well.. personal taste. Some like crapper but more simpler products. Some people value reliability and having a controller a child can play with and hit around and it'll likely survive for example. Others like cutting edge technology which pushes VR and immersion to its capabilities whilst introducing multiple input methods including finger tracking, touchpads, more buttons and still allowing for the joypad & buttons.

I can tell you that finger tracking, the ability to let go of the controllers, and all the other positives I mentioned provide a measurable increase to immersion and VR experience which supersedes what the fundamentally 3-generation old Touch controllers can provide (CV1/Rift S/Q1/Q2).

If you can't appreciate the benefits of the Index controllers or feel they aren't for you, fine.
 

JustinTheNick

Standard Member
I'm not saying the differences aren't measurable, I'm just asking what you're real life uses have been for those differences. I think your debate seems to come down to.. if people disagree it's because hey prefer crap thing where as I've tried to list the technical reasons.

But hey I guess that's one way to shut down a debate!

I also like valve amps, they're probably 20 generations behind but I'm falling into the trap of those pesky analogies.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I'm not saying the differences aren't measurable, I'm just asking what you're real life uses have been for those differences. I think your debate seems to come down to.. if people disagree it's because hey prefer crap thing where as I've tried to list the technical reasons.

But hey I guess that's one way to shut down a debate!

I also like valve amps, they're probably 20 generations behind but I'm falling into the trap of those pesky analogies.


Sorry mate, I apologise for the one of my posts. Reading it back I sound like a knob lol.

Real life wise, I can explain to you probably on a game by game basis.

Boneworks is probably a standout game which is immeasurably better with the Index controllers. Some levels involve you physically pushing against a wall. With the Index controllers, you do just that. Even handling and gripping guns, its all very realistic but BW was made with the Index controllers in mind.

HLA similarly, you can actually pick up a bullet and look at it and move things with your finger tips. This added realism is very very immersive. Similarly putting your hand on a charging station for it to charge is creepy and amazing.

Moving away from games with the Index controllers in mind. I'll talk about Oculus games.

Playing Robo Recall with the Index controlls is THE BEST way to play it. Having your hand suspended in air and able to throw guns away and grab them from your holster actually feels just as, if not more natural than HLA.

Playing Vader Immortal with the Index controllers and using the force is also a very very cool experience which the Touch controllers can't provide for obvious reasons @Atmos willl attest to that as he brought this game to my attention..

More than anything, the added layer of immersion of seeing your own fingers in VR is amazing. IF we can get feet and legs next, then surely this becomes pretty insane.


Looking at the technical advantages on a case by case basis;

The increased controller input methods due to the trackpad is just really really useful. You can re map and have LOADS of options to play games how you want to play them.

The Haptics and vibration are better and its just an added touch to the luxury of the controller. The trigger haptics are a nice touch but not amazing.

You mentioned reliability and I think the reliability of the Index controllers is trash. I don't know an Index user personally who hasn't had to return one for replacement. They're just very very very advanced controllers which are at times trying to do too much so points of failure are sadly inevitale.

Battery charging wise, I like them. The battery life lasts forever and my Touch controllers would drain faster than my Index in a stable state. The issue with touch controllers if if you want to use a mamut grip, then replacing the batteries is a dreadful experience. Some will prefer the batteries though and I understand that.

Joystick and buttons I think is all personal taste. I think neither controller has an amazing joystick tbh. Index's feel more small and sleek and comfortable-ish, the Touch ones feel a bit cheaper but solid and reliable. Buttons, ocuclus ones feel more substantial, index's ones due to the size feel... probably ever so slightly worse but I'm picking at things at this point.



Not sure which other features I mentioned that I should talk about but I think probably the game by game explanation of the advantages is better.

The reliability of the controllers is a massive issue though IMO.
 

JustinTheNick

Standard Member
Sorry mate, I apologise for the one of my posts. Reading it back I sound like a knob lol.

Real life wise, I can explain to you probably on a game by game basis.

Boneworks is probably a standout game which is immeasurably better with the Index controllers. Some levels involve you physically pushing against a wall. With the Index controllers, you do just that. Even handling and gripping guns, its all very realistic but BW was made with the Index controllers in mind.

HLA similarly, you can actually pick up a bullet and look at it and move things with your finger tips. This added realism is very very immersive. Similarly putting your hand on a charging station for it to charge is creepy and amazing.

Moving away from games with the Index controllers in mind. I'll talk about Oculus games.

Playing Robo Recall with the Index controlls is THE BEST way to play it. Having your hand suspended in air and able to throw guns away and grab them from your holster actually feels just as, if not more natural than HLA.

Playing Vader Immortal with the Index controllers and using the force is also a very very cool experience which the Touch controllers can't provide for obvious reasons @Atmos willl attest to that as he brought this game to my attention..

More than anything, the added layer of immersion of seeing your own fingers in VR is amazing. IF we can get feet and legs next, then surely this becomes pretty insane.


Looking at the technical advantages on a case by case basis;

The increased controller input methods due to the trackpad is just really really useful. You can re map and have LOADS of options to play games how you want to play them.

The Haptics and vibration are better and its just an added touch to the luxury of the controller. The trigger haptics are a nice touch but not amazing.

You mentioned reliability and I think the reliability of the Index controllers is trash. I don't know an Index user personally who hasn't had to return one for replacement. They're just very very very advanced controllers which are at times trying to do too much so points of failure are sadly inevitale.

Battery charging wise, I like them. The battery life lasts forever and my Touch controllers would drain faster than my Index in a stable state. The issue with touch controllers if if you want to use a mamut grip, then replacing the batteries is a dreadful experience. Some will prefer the batteries though and I understand that.

Joystick and buttons I think is all personal taste. I think neither controller has an amazing joystick tbh. Index's feel more small and sleek and comfortable-ish, the Touch ones feel a bit cheaper but solid and reliable. Buttons, ocuclus ones feel more substantial, index's ones due to the size feel... probably ever so slightly worse but I'm picking at things at this point.



Not sure which other features I mentioned that I should talk about but I think probably the game by game explanation of the advantages is better.

The reliability of the controllers is a massive issue though IMO.
Hey, all is good. I can get passionate about stuff too... and forums would be a very dull place without some passion right?

When I get a chance I'll definitely try out the Index and hopefully one with knuckles, right now it's difficult to find friends with VR headsets of any kind let alone headsets that I haven't tried out yet... and even if I found I wouldn't be able to step inside their home!

I am (or was prior to retirement) in the design business so sometime over-think these things. Sometimes better to just try stuff out. I'm also guilty of falling into the trap of getting used to something and not wanting to change and I've definitely fallen in love with these controllers.

My mouse is getting super manky, but when I find something like that that I like the feel of, I just can't change for anything... then I find out they've stopped making them and have to change to something different, probably newer, sometimes the newer one is better, not always, but sometimes ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
Hey, all is good. I can get passionate about stuff too... and forums would be a very dull place without some passion right?

When I get a chance I'll definitely try out the Index and hopefully one with knuckles, right now it's difficult to find friends with VR headsets of any kind let alone headsets that I haven't tried out yet... and even if I found I wouldn't be able to step inside their home!

I am (or was prior to retirement) in the design business so sometime over-think these things. Sometimes better to just try stuff out. I'm also guilty of falling into the trap of getting used to something and not wanting to change and I've definitely fallen in love with these controllers.

My mouse is getting super manky, but when I find something like that that I like the feel of, I just can't change for anything... then I find out they've stopped making them and have to change to something different, probably newer, sometimes the newer one is better, not always, but sometimes ;)

I love oculus. The touch controllers were my favourite until the index.

I still think if oculus bothered to try to push high end, they could create something amazing!!
 
Last edited by a moderator:

MikeKay1976

Distinguished Member
I think a high end Oculus device would be fab too but sadly I just don't think it is on the cards. But what I think they will do (and is not all bad) is push hard at developing headsets which bring What were high end (expensive) features in at an affordable price.
 

kenshingintoki

Distinguished Member
I think a high end Oculus device would be fab too but sadly I just don't think it is on the cards. But what I think they will do (and is not all bad) is push hard at developing headsets which bring What were high end (expensive) features in at an affordable price.


I think so too.

I hope this comes with higher end titles.
 

The latest video from AVForums

Podcast: Hisense A7G, Zidoo Z1000 & Kudos Cardea C10 Reviews + Movie News and Reviews
Subscribe to our YouTube channel

Full fat HDMI teeshirts

Support AVForums with Patreon

Top Bottom