Why I don't think dts is better than Dolby Digital - the definitive answer...

Yes it's the R2 extended 4 disc version.
It's the very first scene; about a minute or so in.
It's when Gandalf confronts the Balrog on the bridge.

I did a bit of further checking and from the start of the film as the camera sweeps across the snow covered mountains, there is music coming from the rears in DD but absolutely nothing in DTS.

The amp (AX5i) is set to DPLII Movie and the SB channels are active.
 
For those wondering about test tone differences between DTS and Dolby. Look here:-

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_2/feature-article-dialog-normalization-6-2000.html

Taken from the link:-

"The default power-on setting for Dialnorm on Dolby's professional AC-3 encoder, the DP569, is -27 because as we noted, that value is a perfect fit for movie soundtracks. True, this value calls for your decoder to attenuate its output by 4 dB. Fact is, the two most common reference DVDs, Video Essentials and AVIA, were encoded with the same -27 Dialnorm value, so their test noises are also being attenuated by 4 dB, making them a perfect reference for Dolby Digital movies. If you've set-up a system with either of these tools, then any movie you play will not be "reduced" by 4 dB as compared to the reference.

DTS soundtracks, unlike Dolby Digital, are not attenuated by 4 dB by your decoder. This means that if you've set up your system using AVIA or Video Essentials, the DTS soundtrack is actually going to play 4 dB too high. Yes, that's right. You read it right: On a system calibrated for reference level playback with Video Essentials or AVIA, DTS soundtracks play 4 dB too loud. Conversely (and to be fair), if you set up a system using DTS test noise, the Dolby Digital soundtrack will be 4 dB too low. Yet what is important here, and what I really want you to take away from this, is that regardless of what actual level you watch a movie at, relative to one another, there exists this 4 dB difference between DTS and Dolby Digital movie soundtracks played over consumer equipment. If at any time you are comparing soundtracks, you must turn your volume down when listening to the DTS track and/or raise it when listening to the Dolby Digital track (as the case may be) in order to hear the same level from both.

We should note that most THX-certified receivers and processors address this by attenuating DTS material by 4dB after the decode stage, effectively putting everything on level ground."
 
Family Guy said:
It is just known as THX reference level...whether it's home or cinema, I don't really know.
However, the internal test tone of your DC1 will automatically output a test tone at 75db without you having to fiddle around with speaker levels to get it there...obviously, you then use the SPL to match them all up.
I would have though that if you calibrate the levels to the internal tone (like I do...), all inputs will be output at the same level...for example, if you have Sky attached to your Lex, it dosen't have a test tone attached to it. How do you know that the input volume of Sky isn't higher (or lower) than that of your DVD player, which you have used to play the disc to calibrate your levels...using internal tones makes a lot more sense to me...


All digital inputs should measure the same, but analogue ones will vary. My dc-2 has individual input levels to allow level matching. Using the levels from a dvd makes more sense to me as you watch films from the dvd player hence any 'abnormalities' will be compensated for. I've used a standalone dvd player and 2 hcpc's to double check the dd/dts difference and its there on all of them. btw - the internal tone is -20dB, and you choose what dB level that is when you calibrate - some choose 75dB, some 85dB.

What Arcangel posted seems right, but on my lex it's nearer 6dB not 4. Surely Lexicon would have done the -4 thing ? :confused:

Anyway this seems to be deviating from the thread title so can we leave it for now...

Cheers,

Rob
 
dfield2000 said:
That doesn't sound right to me. What is the time index index of that scene (presuming it's R2) ? I'll check it out on my system tonght.
dfield2000, did you manage to test this last night?
 
Sorry - I acquired my Star Wars trilogy box set yesterday and I was lost in a galaxy far, far away.

I'll defo do it tonight and post the results about 7.00pm. Promise.
 
Brogan, it looks like there might be something wrong with your setup.

I've played the first minute and a half up to where Gandalf strikes the bridge with his staff, and in both DD and DTS the music and effects are both prominentely heard in the rear channels. If you are hearing nothing in the rears during the moutain shots then I'd say that there is definately something not right. There is also quite a large 'boom' when the staff strikes the bridge, again both in DD and DTS.

I'm no expert on amps, but I've got a 5.1 decoder so perhaps it's something to do with your amp trying to decode the extra rear channel.

Perhaps you should now do DD and DTS comparisons on other titles to see if it is just isolated on TTT.
 
Notice from your set up you have an ax5...do you have 5 or 7 speakers attached?
Could be you have it set for 7 but only have 5. What you are missing should be sent to the surround backs...but if they are not there, you won't hear it.
However, if you have 5 speakers attached, and have told the amp you only have 5, then these sound effects will be matrixed into the surround left and right.
Did you use the MCACC facility when you set it up...if you did, this should detect 5 or 7 speakers automatically. However, someone could have played with the settings...worth checking.
 
dfield2000 said:
Brogan, it looks like there might be something wrong with your setup.
I've played the first minute and a half up to where Gandalf strikes the bridge with his staff, and in both DD and DTS the music and effects are both prominentely heard in the rear channels. If you are hearing nothing in the rears during the moutain shots then I'd say that there is definately something not right. There is also quite a large 'boom' when the staff strikes the bridge, again both in DD and DTS.
Thanks for the feedback.
That is markedly different from mine and I'm not sure what it can be as there is definitely something coming from the rears with DTS, just not very much :confused:

Perhaps you should now do DD and DTS comparisons on other titles to see if it is just isolated on TTT.
I'm not sure which of my other DVDs have DTS so I'll have to check each one.
I suspect however that if it's like this for TTT then it will be the same for other titles.

I'll start a thread in the amp forum to see if anyone else with an AX5 gets the same result.
 
Family Guy said:
Notice from your set up you have an ax5...do you have 5 or 7 speakers attached?
There are 7 speakers and the amp is set to 'normal system' or whatever it is that activates the rears.

Did you use the MCACC facility when you set it up...if you did, this should detect 5 or 7 speakers automatically. However, someone could have played with the settings...worth checking.
The settings are all OK as I just re-ran the MCACC last Friday.
The rear are definitely working and on DD it sounds great.
It's just on DTS where there are hardly any effects and no music :confused:
 
Brogan - Hi mate :) I don't have a pioneer amp, but I noticed that in an above post you mention you have your amp set to DPLII Movie... should you not set the amp to "Auto detect" the different digital inputs?

Sigs
 
dfield2000 said:
Perhaps you should now do DD and DTS comparisons on other titles to see if it is just isolated on TTT.
Just tried Gladiator and it works fine for both DD and DTS so the only logical conclusion is it's the TTT disc.
Surely I can't be the only one with a faulty DTS encoded soundtrack?

One thing I did notice however is the encoding is different between the 2 discs only for DTS. The following formats are displayed in the window for each movie/format:

Gladiator DD: DDigital EX
TTT DD: DDigital EX

Gladiator DTS: DTS+Neo:6
TTT DTS: DTS-ES Disc6.1
 
Sigismund said:
Brogan - Hi mate :) I don't have a pioneer amp, but I noticed that in an above post you mention you have your amp set to DPLII Movie... should you not set the amp to "Auto detect" the different digital inputs?
Sigs, as far as I am aware, the amp automatically does this.
DPLII Movie is just the default setting until it picks up the signal from the disc as then the reading in the window changes to DDigital or DTS or whatever it happens to be.
 
firstly...

TTT.

DTS ES 6.1, ive also noticed on my Denon 2805 with 7.1 speakers attached that the Rear Surround channel is hardly used at all.

most dissapointing.

why bother advertising it as a discrete 6.1 soundtrack and then hardly use it at all?

cant wait for them to do the rounds in the cinema again so we can hear what the original matrixed rear chanel sounded like (no discrete DTS or Dolby rear surrounds used in the cinema industry according to DTS and Dolby web sites)

the rears come alive when listening to the matrixed rear surround track thats in the dolby ex track.

also, when set to autodetect the flag my denon amp sits in Dolby D + PLIIx C enabled, with the inputs display showing a rear channel, and i have to switch the autodetectflag off to select Dolby EX matrix.

all of the above isnt to say there isnt any sound to the rear Surrounds in DTS ES 6.1 discrete, but its very, very sparse, no music, just the odd sound effect, whereas the dolby mix is much more like i remember it from the cinema (obviously i could be wrong, pete jackson could come in here and say the cinema matrix mix had no score to the rear, just sfx sounds, and id say 'Hey Pete! cool movie! i prefer the job the guys did on the Dolby EX matrix DVD mix mate! :) ' )


as for this...

"Dolby uses more compression so therefore more of the original information is disgarded, thats why it takes up less space."

Dolby does use higher compression to take up less space, but that doesnt mean it loses any information when its decompressed, it just means its better at compressing data.

Pez (<studied AI in uni)
 
pez said:
firstly...

TTT.

DTS ES 6.1, ive also noticed on my Denon 2805 with 7.1 speakers attached that the Rear Surround channel is hardly used at all.
<snip>
the rears come alive when listening to the matrixed rear surround track thats in the dolby ex track.

also, when set to autodetect the flag my denon amp sits in Dolby D + PLIIx C enabled, with the inputs display showing a rear channel, and i have to switch the autodetectflag off to select Dolby EX matrix.

all of the above isnt to say there isnt any sound to the rear Surrounds in DTS ES 6.1 discrete, but its very, very sparse, no music, just the odd sound effect, whereas the dolby mix is much more like i remember it from the cinema
Phew!
Thank goodness for that.
I thought I might have a faulty amp and/or disc but obviously it's peculiar to TTT.
I must admit, all of the different formats leave me somewhat confused.
Perhaps it would be a good idea if I actually did some reading up on them... :rolleyes:

dfield2000, I wonder why it is that you can hear a lot more in DTS?
It must be the difference between a decoder and an AV amp.
 
what confuses me most is this...

Ive read over on DTSs web site that all 6.1 Discrete soundtracks contain the rear surround channel as a Discrete sixth channel, but all 6.1 soundtracks also contain this rear surround channel matrixed into the left and right surrounds for those who dont have discrete decoders.

when its played on a discrete decoder, the decoder will cancel out the matrixed rear from the left and right surrounds.

when its played on a matrix 6.1 decoder that cant decode discrete 6.1, then the decoder takes the matrixed sound from the left and right surround to create the rear surround.

now this is where it gets interesting.

it appears that the discrete surround channel is usually created from the cinemas matrixed rear channel, as is the rear matrixed channel for D EX and ES matrix (!).

the rears spring into life again on my denon amp when i select DTS +PLIIx, which, as far as i can tell, is taking the rear matrixed channel from the left and right surrounds and outputting it to the rears. plenty of music score, plenty of sound effects action etc etc.

so why the sparse sound on DTS ES 6.1 Discrete?


my comment on the whole thing...

Depends on the mix :)

The best sounding DVD i own is Star Wars EP:2 The Phantom Rasberry Blower.


edit:

just been playing with the DTS+PLIIxC and its not only fuller at the back, but there are pretty discrete sounding left and right rear surrounds, as well as unique left and right surrounds, as well as the unique centre left and right fronts and the sub!

cool stuff, it may be matrixed, and it may be jiggery pokery (is it obvious i studied a computer science yet? :) - its not 7.1 channels of unique, discrete, multiplexed digital audio), but it sounds like 7.1 of unique sounds played to all of my speakers.

and it sounds cool!


edit 2:

thought id also drop this in here from dtsonline.com

Summarizing DTS-ES 6.1-channel capabilities for consumer playback:

-The center surround channel is always matrixed into the LS and RS channels.
-A discrete center surround channel can optionally be encoded as well.
-A DTS-ES 6.1-discrete decoder will play the discrete center surround channel.
-It will also subtract the discrete center surround channel out of the matrixed LS and RS channels, restoring the LS and RS channels as independent.
-Any DTS-ES track, discrete or not, is fully compatible with 6.1-matrix decoders because the matrixed tracks are always present.
-Any DTS-ES track is fully compatible with 5.1 decoders because the center surround channel information is matrixed into the LS and RS channels and will thus be heard in and between the LS and RS speakers.

pez
 
pez, do you have a link that will quickly and very simply explain all of the various formats available?
 
Well, I'm pretty lost now as most of this is going right over my head, so apologies if I’m sounding like a complete idiot, but to chuck in my two peneths worth -

I thought that the rear centre channel was designed just for specific effects, to give the impression of something coming from directly behind the listener. I would think that the musical score would still be primarily based in the LS and RS channels.

pez said:
-It will also subtract the discrete center surround channel out of the matrixed LS and RS channels, restoring the LS and RS channels as independent.

My 5.1 amp is mixing in the rear centre channel into the rear left and right – but it sounds like in your 6.1 setups, instead of subtracting the centre channel out of the rear left and right, it has subtracted the actual rear left and right channel completely, leaving you with only the small amount of effects designed for the rear centre. This would explain why you’ve lost the bulk of the musical score, but are still hearing some effects.

And just to clarify, I didn’t mean that I had a separate decoder – I’ve got a bog standard low end integrated sony receiver. And also, apologies to ArmyGuy for taking this slightly off the THX topic.
 
dfield2000 said:
And also, apologies to ArmyGuy for taking this slightly off the THX topic.
Yes, apologies to Family Guy ;) for going OT but this sub-discussion was prompted by my first post in this thread which was:
I must confess to not having a preference either way as far as DD or DTS is concerned as I'm not into DVDs as much as some of you are.
I was under the impression though that they were in fact supposed to be very similar hence the perpetual argument about which is better.

However I have just noticed that they are in fact completely different mixes.
I have just received my extended version of LOTR - TTT and thought I'd check it out.
<snip>
Based on this, I will definitely be watching this movie in DD as the rears seem to be hardly used in DTS and therefore removes the appeal for me.

Is this normal?
Is this the fundamental difference between DD and DTS
 
this kinda explains where they all come from http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_1/feature-prologic-iix-3-2004.html

but until theres a 7.1 discrete system on the marketplace, we're going to have to get used to switching between dts, dd, es, ex, es6.1discrete, matrixed, plIIx 6.1 and plIIx 7.1 matrixed.

to go back on topic again, ill say it depends on the mix.

seems like ttt dts es6.1 discrete mix isnt how it was in the cinema (im sure there was musical score out of the rears there...could be wrong though).

pez
 
For me and a good example of a DVD would be T2 Ultimate DVD, I always choose DTS for it's always more detailed and seems to always pack a better punch than DD. T2 is also THX certified.

I do think though that for 70's and 80's films there is not much difference in quality between a DD and DTS track, like Jaws or American Werewolf. ie. A DTS track can really stretch the boundaries of newer material over its counterpart. :clap: MAKE IT A DTS STANDARD!
 
Glenzo said:
I do think though that for 70's and 80's films there is not much difference in quality between a DD and DTS track, like Jaws or American Werewolf. ie. A DTS track can really stretch the boundaries of newer material over its counterpart. :clap:

Another poor generalisation.
 
I was going to say something, but always get jumped on...what year was T2 made...? 1992 IIRC Was never released in theatre's with a digital track (7 channel analogue I think). So therefore the DD & dts track have been mixed for this DVD...poor selection IMHO.

For what it's worth - I've given up on the DD vs DTS`debate now. Much more interested in just watching the movie on the disc.
I thought The Day After Tomorrow had an excellent dts track which sounded as good as the DD version - but the dts on Hidalgo was just so overblown, it was funny!!!
 
Family Guy said:
For what it's worth - I've given up on the DD vs DTS`debate now. Much more interested in just watching the movie on the disc.




:eek:

Mylo :laugh:
 
Terminator 2 used a new 6 channel digital format called CDS when it was released into cinemas in 1991 therefore it did have a fully discrete digital soundtrack, i imagine like a lot of DVD releases it has also been remixed for the home.

As for Family Guy giving up on the DTS vs Dolby debate well who started this thread lol :smashin:
 

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