1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Why don't Arcam do seamless layer changes?

Discussion in 'Arcam Owners' Forum' started by BLS, Sep 22, 2004.

Tags:
  1. BLS

    BLS
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Is there more to seamless layer changes than putting an 8MB buffer in the machine?
    Otherwise why don't Arcam include one? It wouldn't make much difference in price to a 1000 pound machine and it would attract quite a few buyers - me included!
     
  2. fordster

    fordster
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2004
    Messages:
    151
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +2
    That's a very good question. When I eventually replace my DVD player I will be looking at machines in the Arcam price bracket. I wouldn't want to pay £1000 and then still have a layer change. The lack of layer change is the best feature of my Denon and I'm now so used to not noticing layer change that I think it would really annoy me.
     
  3. Matt Horne

    Matt Horne
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2000
    Messages:
    4,117
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Over the Hill & Far Away
    Ratings:
    +119
    The drives are OEM produced by another firm.. pretty sure when I had my original DV88 drive that there was hardly any layer change.. and when it was replaced it got slightly worse..so its out of Arcams hands in that respect.

    But you never know :)
     
  4. BLS

    BLS
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    My mate's DV88 has its original drive and the layer change takes most of a second.

    If Arcam built a buffer into the electronics it wouldn't matter how quick the drive changed layers as the buffer would compensate.
     
  5. John Dawson

    John Dawson
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2001
    Messages:
    852
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Ratings:
    +112
    It is much more complex than you think and in the hands of a piece of Vaddis 5 microcode to which we do not have access. Otherwise we would have improved this over the Vaddis 3 offerings. Having said that the current family of players has excellent performance in just about all other respects :)

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  6. BLS

    BLS
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Ah, thought it might be or else you'd have done it!
    Thanks John
    Always great to get a reply direct from the chairman.
     
  7. galewis1

    galewis1
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    311
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Peterborough
    Ratings:
    +4
    So..... how come other manufacturers can do it?
     
  8. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,193
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,484
    Sounds like a bit of dialogue from the remastered Star Wars DVD's. Maybe Yoga or Puke can help out?

    Phil
     
  9. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
    AVForums Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    13,866
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Ratings:
    +9,613
    I was most perplexed when I saw a layer change on my Arcam. I couldn't believe it at first that a grand DVD player can't do something a 30 quid job can.
    This is a big deal. Surely when choosing a decoder chip, this factor is a major influence.
    What's the point in striving to get the 'perfect' home cinema with thousands spent, just to be scuppered by a layer change which jolts you out of the movie like a slap in the face?
     
  10. Cool-hand

    Cool-hand
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,105
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Portsmouth / Middle East
    Ratings:
    +77
    TOTALLY AGREE :confused: :confused: :confused:

    Im afraid no amount of discussion can remove the fact that it just should not do it.
     
  11. Jim_R

    Jim_R
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    OK, I'm relatively new to this...what are seamless layer changes? Does this occur on all DVD's, or have I just not viewed a DVD requiring a layer change? (I have a Sony DVP-NS900V DVD player).
     
  12. Philly112

    Philly112
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2003
    Messages:
    4,193
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Frodsham
    Ratings:
    +1,484
    Nearly all DVD's are two layers - the laser reads one layer, and then there is normally a small pause while the laser readjusts to read the second layer (this is the layer change). It's a function of the player as to how well it copes with this. My Sony is not good - maybe up to 1 second, when the picture freezes. Some players (eg high spec Denon's) have a memory buffer so that the layer change is 'masked' (for want of a better word).
    I am surprised that you haven't seen it on your Sony, but that is a better model than mine...
    Phil
     
  13. cameronl

    cameronl
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2002
    Messages:
    1,146
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Ratings:
    +11
    I agree, I hate the fact my DV88+p has a noticable layer change - even my wife ocassionaly frowns :)

    CaM
     
  14. RaceTripper

    RaceTripper
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2004
    Messages:
    537
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    USA
    Ratings:
    +1
    My wife has commented on that as well. She doesn't understand how that can be normal for such an expensice player.

    But she forgets it quickly enough when viewing the great picture.

    I don't like the slow layer change, but have come to live with it.
     
  15. Branxx

    Branxx
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2000
    Messages:
    801
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    London, UK
    Ratings:
    +1
    The layer change delay issue is normally solved by making a player to read data in advance and storing it into a buffer, which needs to be big enough to accommodate the layer change delay.

    The actual movie is than played from the buffer and not in real-time from the DVD drive. Many software players do similar thing when completing one VOB file and starting the next one.

    The data rate on a DVD is approx 1MB/sec so an 8MB buffer can come theoretically with up to 8sec delay in drive switching to the next layer.

    Any machine costing £1,000 should have this resolved.
     
  16. Stuart Wright

    Stuart Wright
    AVForums Founder Staff Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2000
    Messages:
    13,866
    Products Owned:
    6
    Products Wanted:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    167
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK
    Ratings:
    +9,613
    This is not normal for any DVD player. Well it shouldn't be, anyway.
    We haven't watched many films in the new home cinema, yet, but if I notice a layer change with every movie, the player will be straight in the classifieds forum. Not got a 30 grand home cinema (what it's worth, not what I spent on it!) to put up with layer change freezes.
     
  17. JetJockey

    JetJockey
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Ive just bought a DV79.

    If I see a layer change at this price point, it will be back in the shop faster than u can say sausages.

    Gerald. :nono:
     
  18. BLS

    BLS
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Sausages

    Seen any layer change pauses yet JJ?
     
  19. Matt Horne

    Matt Horne
    Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2000
    Messages:
    4,117
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    83
    Location:
    Over the Hill & Far Away
    Ratings:
    +119
    Well it cannot be that easy a thing to do as I cannot think of any players outside of Denon which employ a buffer.. and that would be great except for the other heap of issues which seem to follow denon players around (though hopefully this may be now sorted with the 3910 as I have not heard about any bad press yet!)

    It also comes down to how well they have hidden the layer change in the disc as to how obvious it is...I'm guessing here that the top end Tag/Meridian/Lexicon players still have a layer change problem ?
     
  20. Spoonfed

    Spoonfed
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    8mb would be expensive....... and besides we will never need more than 640kb of ram!
    hehe
     
  21. alpha10

    alpha10
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2002
    Messages:
    3,197
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    86
    Location:
    Essex
    Ratings:
    +192
    I wish Arcam could sort this out, as you can see from my sig. I am an Arcam fan. However having had several Denon DVD players, I cannot put up with layer changes on other players any more. (instead I have to live with Denon's issues :mad: )

    I would otherwise be changing my 3800 for an Arcam, not a 3910............

    Cheers
     
  22. mutley

    mutley
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2002
    Messages:
    445
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Portugal
    Ratings:
    +2
    Well for the ones considering the 3910 instead of the dv79:

    "The 3910 DOES have a visible layer change.
    __________________
    Senior DVD Editor
    Secrets of Home Theater and Hi Fi" at AVSforum

    That with the Macroblocking problem in the Denon Players (3910 included) makes the Arcam look the better IMHO, the only down is that you can have te Denon online for much less than the Arcam (wich you can't get online).
     
  23. mutley

    mutley
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2002
    Messages:
    445
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Portugal
    Ratings:
    +2
    My only problem with the DV79 is that i you can't get an 8 metre hdmi cable to work with a projector...
     
  24. JetJockey

    JetJockey
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Hi Mutley.

    I have auditioned the DV79 and found the picture superb. Cant speak about the Layer change as have not watched a whole film through yet.

    However.......... The ability to feed multichannel audio down one lead is very appealing, a scaler sounds nice too. I am tempted to buy a Denon 3910 instead of the Arcam DV79 or even Arcam FMJ29. What are your thoughts on this as you appear to have seen the both working? Also, I thought the 3910 did not suffer with macroblocking (or so somebody said in another thread)??

    Cheers, Gerald. :)
     
  25. Crustyloafer

    Crustyloafer
    Well-known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2003
    Messages:
    9,517
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    136
    Location:
    Edinburgh
    Ratings:
    +1,239
    I have had both my DV29 and the shops DV79 working perfectly well with a 10 metre HDMI lead with a HDMI to DVI adapter on the end going into a Sharp XV-Z200.
     
  26. mutley

    mutley
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2002
    Messages:
    445
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Portugal
    Ratings:
    +2
    Long HDMI cables exist but are expensive as hell!
     
  27. John Dawson

    John Dawson
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2001
    Messages:
    852
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Cambridge, UK
    Ratings:
    +112
    Mutley -

    It depends what you mean by expensive I guess. We supply a third party HDMI cable to Arcam dealers in 3 and 10m lengths which shouldn't break the bank - check with your Arcam dealer for his price. We can also supply an HDMI - DVI adaptor for displays.

    John Dawson (Arcam)
     
  28. NaimBoy

    NaimBoy
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2003
    Messages:
    98
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    6
    Ratings:
    +0
    Just picked up my 15m HDMI cable (Chord Silver Plus) and checked it was OK in the shop with a DV79 & SIM2 projector - no probs at all.

    As for being expensive - I guess it's all relative...... £1000 DVD Player, £1,500+ Projector/Plasma, £240 cable.... :confused:
     
  29. mutley

    mutley
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jul 28, 2002
    Messages:
    445
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    Portugal
    Ratings:
    +2
    Thanks,

    I'll Check That!
     
  30. Cool-hand

    Cool-hand
    Member

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2002
    Messages:
    2,105
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Portsmouth / Middle East
    Ratings:
    +77
    Cables are a funny thing... their about the only piece of av equipment we buy that actually holds its price and bizzarely tend to be over-price!!! Go figure!?
     

Share This Page

Loading...