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why do NTSC region 1 disks seem clearer than PAL region 2 disks!

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by evans, Mar 27, 2003.

  1. evans

    evans
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    I was viewing something on this forum a while back about pal being theoretically a better quality that the Ntsc due to pal being closer the the frames per minute that films are. But someone said it also depends on the transfer from film to dvd.

    anyone notice the same or I must need new glasses.:p
     
  2. nathan_silly

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    I prefer R1 over R2, I just feel R1 has more detail to the image, wheras R2 seems to have more compression, and I notice that R2 seems to have more digital artifacts.

    I've tried both regions, and lots of each on a CRT front Projector, and it's clear which is better.
     
  3. sweetmate

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    PAL is alleged to be better beacuse it has more horizontal lines of resoution. But I usually buy R1 as a) NTSC progressive is much more available (in terms of players and projectors) than PAL progressive, b) I hate PAL speed up, and c) R1s are usually mastered better (this is a generalisation and its not always the case).

    Films are 24fps, PAL is 25fps (so films are sped up by 4%) and NTSC is 30fps (which is 24fps interlaced to 30 by a process called telecine, the speed of the film is unchanged) but can easily be deinterlaced to 24fps by a progressive scan dvd player or a pc (a process called, surprisingly, inverse telecine).

    I'm guessing you mean the 3:2 pulldown is noticeable as a judder on pans on NTSC material. I don't really notice it even watching interlaced NTSC, might just be my setup.
    But I do notice that PAL actually runs the film faster, I can hear and see it immediately.
     
  4. bonzobanana

    bonzobanana
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    When it comes to projectors most of them seem optimised for NTSC. I have a Panasonic AE100 and its panel is setup perfectly for NTSC widescreen material as is the case for many other projectors.

    However I think its fair to say most PAL DVDs do have a slightly higher res image and using a convential CRT tv I think most users will find PAL superior as there european tvs will be set up for it better and it does have a small increase in resolution but as ever its down to the individual DVD. The reason many PAL DVDs have less extras than NTSC DVDs is simply because the PAL movie occuipies more space on the DVD itself so in essense it contains more information with regards the picture and it only has to store detail for 25 frames per second instead of 30. Basically there is no clear cut answer as its down to the setup and dvds played.
     
  5. StooMonster

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    NTSC film is stored on DVD at 24fps.

    There are a number of older threads discussing this very subject, this long one has input from people who work in the industry (e.g. RichardA of Snell & Wilcox) and know what they are talking about.

    Essentially boils down to 4% speed up of PAL (although with sound adjusted these days) or 3:2 judder with NTSC. You takes your choices.

    Hope this helps.

    StooMonster
     
  6. nathan_silly

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    I normally watch R1- they are 60hz

    And just tried a R2- 50hz.

    Now the 60hz flicker is not noticeable, but the R2 50hz flicker is, it's quite bad (my set is a 50hz TV)

    Maybe that's why people go for 100hz sets?
     
  7. sweetmate

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    There is no such thing as NTSC film. An NTSC signal (even on a DVD) runs at 30fps (or 29.97 to be exact) and then using progressive scan or a pc, the signal can be deinterlaced.

    I'm a little wary of PAL soundtracks that have been pitch corrected after the debacle of the PAL FOTR Theatrical version. If Mi Casa (one of the best DVD soundtrack mastering/mixing companies in the business) can't get it right, I'm not a believer.

    but the 3-2 (usually its 2-3) judder won't be visible with a progressive player and display, so if you're lucky (translates as loaded) enough to have the right kit, R1 is probably a good way to go. Unless of course, you are even more loaded and have a PAL progressive player and display, AND the dvd has been properly pitch shifted, in which case R2 is your best bet!!! :)
     
  8. Kevo

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    Always found R2 PAL pic quality to be better.

    I agree that it depends on the DVD.

    I find non-anamorphic ntsc DVDs blown up with the 'Zoom' function look the worst.
     
  9. evans

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    thanks for all the input but I have never rented a dvd on my small 50 hz tv that was pal region 2 and being better detailed than any of the ntsc region 1 discs. I dont know if I have a 100 hz tv what will be the result thought. Will see soon.
     
  10. Costas

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    Fully agree!!
     
  11. Adam Barratt

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    Yes it will, at least if you're using a 'standard' display device and progressive scan player. To eliminate 3:2 pulldown you need both a player and a monitor capable of refreshing at a multiple of 24 (72Hz at least, I would suggest).

    Using a standard 60Hz progressive display and a set-top progressive scan DVD player, 3:2 pulldown remains in its full glory.

    Adam
     
  12. nathan_silly

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    3:2 judder doesn't bother me.

    R2 films that are cut to shreds do (The Shining etc) and messed up audio tracks really put R2 - Galaxy Quest, really do totally put me off R2.

    I will never buy R2 films, even if R2's are £5 each, and R1's are £35 each- I'll still buy R1's.
     
  13. StooMonster

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    With NTSC film it is DISPLAYED at 30fps via 3:2 pull down but is STORED at 24fps on DVD; furthermore, it's also ordinarily stored as progressive and interlaced by the player (if not a prog-scan player).

    If it was stored at 30fps what would 3:2 pull-down do?

    NTSC video, e.g. television shows, are stored at 30fps though.

    Note: I'm only saying 30fps for rounding, we all know that it's 29.97fps.

    Do a search on Google for DVD encoding, or read some material from likes of Snell & Wilcox to get detailed information on how DVD encoding/decoding works. This link may also help
    http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_7_4/dvd-benchmark-part-5-progressive-10-2000.html

    StooMonster

    Edited because of Bold tags not working properly
     
  14. sweetmate

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    3-2 pulldown occurs at the telecine stage, i.e when the film is converted to an NTSC video signal, it does not happen at the playback stage.

    The signal stored on the DVD is an NTSC 30fps video signal. You cannot store a 24fps progressive signal on a dvd, you can only construct one at playback.

    3-2 pulldown detection occurs at the IVTC (inverse telecine) stage either in your pc or your progressive scan circuitry in your player.

    All NTSC material is 30fps, but it may have been converted from 24fps film or 30fps video (or 25fps video if it was PAL)

    I haven't introduced HDTV signals into the discussion to try and keep things simple. :)

    To quote from the article you've linked:

     
  15. MarkB4506

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    I think the point Adam's trying to make is that judder will still be present because of the pattern of frame display by the player.

    The deinterlacing chip will output 24 frames per second, however the display device is still expecting a 60Hz (or 60 fps) signal.

    So the frames are displayed in a 3:2 pattern to allow this

    ie 1,1,1,2,2,3,3,3,4,4 etc

    Frame 1 flashes three times in the first sixtieth of a second
    Frame 2 flashes twice in the second sixtieth
    Frame 24 will occupy the last sixtieth.

    Since each individual frame lasts 1/60th of a second longer (or shorter) than the next the potential remains for judder even though, yes , it's not strictly speaking '3:2 pulldown'
     
  16. StooMonster

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  17. sweetmate

    sweetmate
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    Stoo, sorry to keep going on this, and we've kind of steered the thread away but it has really intrigued me!

    Can you let me know where those quotes are from?

    Looking again at that first article you linked:

    Note the use of the word must.

    But then again further down the article it gives examples of encoding MPEG-2 as all progressive frames and using the Repeat_First_Field flags, which supports what you say.

    So if DVD video really is 24fps progressive on the disc, why do we need deinterlacing?

    I'm confused!!! :(
     
  18. StooMonster

    StooMonster
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    Sweetmate, it has gone it bit off topic hasn't it?

    I will confess that I used think the same as you, and argued about it until I did some research to prove my point and found that the other person was correct. :blush:

    Where to find articles, err... I typed various things like "DVD encoding NTSC" into Google. There's plenty of articles about this stuff about, for real detail you could read the DVD specification documents.

    I believe this is talking about video rather than raw DVD MPEG-2 files. Point of confusion is often taking about video vs DVD and MPEG-2 vs output.

    Key point is that films are stored (i.e. encoded) at 24fps, and the DVD player makes it 30fps so it can be displayed; as I was embarassed to discover myself. ;)

    You have to remember that historically all DVD players were interlaced, and prog-scan players are a (relatively) new technology.

    If the prog-scan DVD player reads a progressive MPEG-2 stream it doesn't deinterlace it, only does the 3:2 pull down.

    From what I understand, it gets more complex as different discs are mastered in different ways and different levels of quality (plenty contain flag mistakes) -- hence need to have good quality chipsets for prog-scan as flags on disc may not match content. (e.g. may be progressive MPEG-2 file but flags say different).

    StooMonster
     
  19. AcerKev

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    Would the same apply to over the air MPEG-2 as well?

    On BBC TWO at the start of The Simpsons the picture judders really bad (on Freeview and Sky Digital - also on Sky One) - but on my Region 2 DVD the picture is fine (no judder)
     
  20. sweetmate

    sweetmate
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    Wow, love it when you learn something totally new! Thanks for learning me StooMonster! :blush:

    I'd be interested to know which discs are encoded how.

    I'm guessing (I thought I was sure about things till Stoo came along :) ) that Sky or freeview Mpeg2 signals are always PAL. And to be honest I don't know if the Simpsons was animated at 30fps or at 24. Maybe it's animated at 30fps and so it has to be converted to 25fps for PAL transmission and maybe a little more work was put into the transfer for the DVD than for the broadcast digi-tapes? I'm merely speculating.

    And to go back to the original point of this thread, NTSC disks will look clearer if you have say a Panasonic AE100 projector and prog scan dvd player, which can do 480p but not 576p. On a standard UK PAL TV, PAL discs tend to look better (presuming they have both been encoded equally well) as NTSC line structure can be visible, as UK TV's were designed primarily for PAL, with NTSC as an addition. But Evans if you have a small 50hz TV you probably shouldn't be able to spot any difference at all! :)
     
  21. StooMonster

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    No, the stuff above (3:2 pull-down and associated judder) only applies to NTSC film.

    Over the air MPEG-2 is always going to be PAL (in UK anyway).

    StooMonster
     
  22. AcerKev

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    I was thinking more of it being an American Sourced show that it may cause problems in the conversion - oh well.

    It's extreamly annoying though,
     
  23. StooMonster

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    You're welcome, this stuff is interesting (to me at least :blush: perhaps I'm a AV anarok?).

    Wouldn't we all, as IMHO it's impossible to generalise over which is better; can only be done on a disc by disc basis.

    Simpsons is a US television show and is therefore animated at 30fps. Where problems can occur is in the NTSC to PAL conversion process. Snell & Wilcox website http://www.snellwilcox.com/ has some excellent reading material in the 'Reference' section to give you more background.

    's right. You only tend to notice differences with higher end kit. For example on my Panny5 50" plasma and Arcam FMJ DV27, 3:2 pull-down judder can be quite visible in some movies, and in scrolling titles in particular.

    I buy a mix of R1 and R2 DVDs, depending on which has better transfer, availability, price etc.

    Better transfer? e.g. computer graphic movies (e.g. Monsters Inc) are rerendered at target resolution and PAL version has the higher resolution and looks best IMO. NTSC television shows look best on R1, as there is no horrid NTSC-PAL conversion at mastering; PAL television shows look best on R2, for similar reason. Other types of movies? Honestly, it varies; could be one or the other depending on a whole load of issues, and is impossible to generalise.

    StooMonster
     
  24. evans

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    sweetmate


    I have a small tv 14 inch and the difference is clear( all disks ntsc more detailed than pal disks) Ntsc disks vary in detail though some better that others but all disks are clearer than the best in pal2.

    The movie "below" is one of the best Ive seen for clarity recently.

    My player is a q50 philips and I will see when I get a jvc tv high definition if any of the pal disks show better quality when the tv is better quality.

    will know this month when I get the tv.
     
  25. sweetmate

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