Why can't you do this on the E85? a tad disappointed!

Discussion in 'Blu-ray & DVD Players & Recorders' started by Jules, Oct 2, 2004.

  1. Jules

    Jules
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    Bought my E85 yesterday as an upgrade to an E60.

    I understand that 'high speed dubbing' to DVD-R can only be achieved if the original recording is made to the HDD in 'High Speed Dubbing mode'.

    Here's my point.... I wanted to record a program I knew would occupy 1 hour and 15 minutes, excluding commercials.
    So, I set the E85 to record in FR mode set to 1 hour 15 mins, and I presumed that as it was recording to the HDD it would continue beyond this time but recording at the same quality.
    The idea was to edit out the commercials afterwards to reduce the total time back down to 1 hour 15 minutes and fill a DVD-R.

    But the damn thing stops recording at 1 hour 15 minutes. What's the point in having the HDD!!!
    The only way is to record in XP mode and re-encode in FR mode afterwards, reducing quality.

    Why can't it continue recording to the HDD in FR mode beyond the point at which it would fill a DVD-R? This would give you the chance to edit out the rubbish without needing to re-encode and making full use of the DVD-R capacity:thumbsdow
     
  2. OARDVD

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    I’m sure that many ‘expert’ users would like an additional Flexible Recording mode like this but I also feel that the average user would complain that it made the recorder over-complicated. Also, in order to set the bit rate to fill a disc (after editing) you would need to accurately estimate beforehand the amount to be deleted – that’s not always possible with adverts, for example. Just be very, very grateful that it’s got a decent Flexible Recording mode at all since several brands (ie, Philips, Sony) don’t even have that.
     
  3. phelings

    phelings
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    I find it unbelievable that a machine with the pedigree of a Panasonic should have this design flaw.To have the FR mode only record for the set time makes the addition of the feature pretty pointless.
    On my Pioneer,my tv series compilations usually last about 2.5 hours.So I set the Pioneer to the correct setting for 2.5 hours,but of course,an unedited transfer from Sky+ with padding and ads comes to about 3.5 hours.But after editing it lasts the right length for high speed transfer to dvd and all turns out nicely.
    Along with ignoring -RW,this is Panny's biggest cock up.What a pointless feature.
     
  4. nwgarratt

    nwgarratt
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    It is only doing what you told it to do. I wouldn't expect it to carry on after 1 hour 15 minutes.

    Personally, I just use SP or XP, edit and then FR to a RAM disc (I don't use DVD-R's). I find the quality excellent and I have to really look hard to notice any difference in quality.

    If a film is something like 90- 120 minutes (minus ads) I use XP. If the film is over 2 hours (minus ads) then I just use SP. I then get the right amount of compromise so I don't eat up my HDD space on XP.
     
  5. phelings

    phelings
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    By using Sp,then going to FR ,you are losing quality where you don't need to-and is is possible to do SP/HDD-FR/DVD at high speed?
    It is NOT doing what you told it to.You are telling it you want recordings at that level to enable high speed copying to dvd(what the feature is there for really),so stopping after 75 mins is stupid.
    After all these months of defending Panny against +R converts,I feel I have wasted my time.I never imagined that such a ridiculous cock up would occur.
    The example I give above of how I record series,where you WILL know the length of your final edit(within a minute or 2)is something not possible with a Pansonic machine.I am dumbfounded that such a limitation is in place.This mistake actually removes the best use for FR and you may as well go back to real time copying for all the use FR is on Panny machines.
     
  6. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Calm down Phelings! This "ridiculous cock up" is no limitation at all - especially to those who have actually bothered to read the :censored: user guide I wrote on ths subject

    For recording a series, i.e. multiple recordings destined for a single DVD-R, then it is no issue at all - you just use the running time of the end disk and you still have ample time to edit.

    For movies without advert breaks then FR with a few minutes leeway before/after the movie (which are then editted) will still give a bitrate within a few minutes of the programmes length (potentially closer than you can get on a Pioneer model!). And for movies with advert breaks then you simply use the Playlist function to join multiple FR recordings together.
     
  7. phelings

    phelings
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    Take the recording session I gave above.Overnight I want to transfer 3 episodes of a series from Sky+ to HDD.Unedited running time 3.5 hours,edited running time 2.5 hours.Surely,if what the guy says is true,then recording at the 2.5 hour level as you would need to means recording will end 1 hour short.The only way I see round it is transferring the episodes across 1 at a time-but thats not what I wanted to do.
    Films without ads are irrelevant-there is no editing required.
    If you had to write a guide on it,it shows the machine has shortcomings.
     
  8. phelings

    phelings
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    Rasczak-while you are here-will 8x dvd-r blanks work at that speed on my Pioneer 5100
     
  9. Rasczak

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    No m8 - they won't - and you may find that some makes of 8x DVD-R don't work on the 5100. This is actually a bit of a sore issue. Despite initial promises Pioneer (Japan) have refused to develop a Firmware upgrade for the 3100/5100 models even though such firmware could be easily adapted from their PC drives. For a short while it was hoped that Pioneer (US) may develop something in house but this seems to have fallen through. It's not a big issue: compatible 8x DVD-R media will be readily available until long after you upgrade - it just 'urks' that they 'take you money and do a runner' if you know what I mean.
     
  10. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    I have never found transferring items one at a time to be a big problem. I suppose it depends on your viewing patterns. You can always set the timer, use the Sky+ copy function and 'buffer' programmes in between what you want to copy. But if your Sky+ is that heavily used then you watch too much TV!

    Perhaps. But then you can equally apply that to the Guides discussing the best use of custom bitrates on the Pioneer/Toshiba recorders which I still get dozens of e-mails about every week. I would like to point out that in Jules case I suggested a sub-$50 solution to his initial problem (with no need to change his DVD recorder) and was completely ignored!
     
  11. Jules

    Jules
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    Not ignoring anyone here, just a in agony and can't get to the computer very easily.
    I laughed so much at one of the X-Factor auditions last night (I know, really sad!!) that I did my back in and everytime I breath now, my lower back goes into a complete spasm and it hurts like hell.

    Still, back to the main subject.... I feel these are 'workarounds', and this machine does not make it a 'breeze' to edit and transfer without re-encoding. I'm just disappointed as I hoped it would do what I planned.

    The FR mode on the Panasonic might be good, but you have to decide before recording to the HDD whether re-encoding will be necessary before dubbing to DVD-R.

    All the E85 has done for me is saved time ransferring material to the PC for editing/burning.
    Its a personal thing, but I feel the benefit of the E85 over the E55/E65 has been over egged.

    However, there is one other benefit the E85 has, and that's the peice of mind recording 'live' to the HDD. I recorded a few 'live' shows to DVD-R on my E60 and got 'recovery' errors and lost the recording.
    At least you can just re-dubb from the HDD if you get a coaster.

    P.S. anyone know a good muscle relaxant?
     
  12. Maximumbaz

    Maximumbaz
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    Rasczak,

    I've just taken delivery of a DMR-E95 as a replacement for the Sony RDR-HX900 and I'm delighted with it. Just a shame Unbeatable haven't paid the refund on the Sony yet.

    Is there a link to the user guide you mentioned?
     
  13. davet010

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    It's the second sticky on here "PC Guide...", and very useful it is too.
     
  14. Rasczak

    Rasczak
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    Glad to hear it! As already pointed out in is incorporated into the PC GUIDE thread - post number #5 "Getting The Most Out Of Your DVD Recorder".
     
  15. QED

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    The machine is only as smart as you I'm afraid.
    If you set your old VCR player to record 1 hour 15 minutes however you put a 3 hour tape in, would you assume it would continue beyond 1 hr 15 minutes just because the tape was 3hrs long?
    FR is a excellent feature on the Panny, it's the reason I bought it :thumbsup:
     
  16. arcamalpha

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    Is'nt technology one big let down?
    I placed a frozen pie in the micro the other day, set the timer for 5 minutes and was a bit miffed when I checked it and it was a touch cold, would'nt you think the micro would know this and extend the cooking time? :rotfl:
     
  17. Jules

    Jules
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    Ok. Maybe I'm being picky.

    But, I don't believe you can compare this to VHS, since VHS records at the same quality no matter how long the recording....with DVD-R the quality reduces with the length of the recoding and that was my point.

    It is still a good machine though. Perhaps I just want to make sure that anyone who expects what I expected (whether realistic or not), isn't disappointed to find out it can't do it.
     
  18. arcamalpha

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    Hi jules :) , to be honest, I have yet to notice a major degradation of picture quality with the panny e85, i still favour it over vhs.
    I would question what you say about vhs though, with respect ofcourse, that vhs records at the same quality no matter how long the recording.
    I always noticed a degrading of quality when recording on long play over normal.
     
  19. nwgarratt

    nwgarratt
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    I don't see what the difference is recording straight in FR mode (I did this with a E50) or record in XP and then FR to fit on a disc (I now do this with a HS2). The end of result regarding quality will be same. It just takes longer to wait for the reencoding to be finished.

    Otherwise, just copy the recording onto a PC then make it fit on a DVD using PC software. I do this with episodic series (using SP mode) such as Stargate SG1 and make 4 epsiodes fit on a DVD.

    Exactly what I was saying. It is nothing to do with quality but the fact you have chosen to use a timer. It can't know that you want to record more than the 1hour 15 min.
     
  20. Jules

    Jules
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    Yes, but I'm not actually talking about using the timer.
    I'm talking about making manual recordings to the HDD in FR mode.

    I agree that if you set the timer to record 1hr 15 mins it should stop at this point.

    The way I see it, with FR mode you are simply specifying a recording quality in order to make most use of the 4.7GB space on a DVD-R.
    If this specified recording quality is going to the HDD, then the 4.7GB limit does not apply.
    Therefore, as a manual, non-timer recording with no specified end time, I would like it to continue recording at the same FR rate until I tell it to stop.

    That's all. Its just a function I would like to see added in order to achieve what I wanted in my intial post.
    If you think about it, what I'm saying does make sense and it would be a useful feature. But equally I understand that for the average Joe, this idea may confuse... as it seems to have done here.
     
  21. nwgarratt

    nwgarratt
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    You are right as you not using the actual timer but it is the same thing. If you are setting an end time of 1 hour 15 minutes, it records that amount.
     
  22. Neville Street

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    I was a bit envious of the FR mode on the panny's when I was choosing a machine as it sounded like a good way of using the whole disc, maximising quality, etc. But in the end I went for the ToshXS32 as on balance it fitted my needs. From my reading of this thread the Tosh's manual settings with very small steps in bitrate give exactly the functionality you are looking for, i.e. choose a bit rate that will fit 4.7Gb to a disk for a particular planned recording length, but use it for a longer recording to HDD that will have bits removed from it before burning to disk.
     
  23. phelings

    phelings
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    QED,that is a **** poor excuse for the Panny.The bottom line is that the feature cannot be implemented in a sensible useful way like it can on models from other makes.As other posts point out,including the one above,Pioneer and Toshiba use the function as you would expect to use it,not a halfhearted poorly thought out way like Panny
     
  24. johnjackthom

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    Panny seem to have been blinded by the success of a system that was close to perfect for fitting programmes onto DVDs.
    Unfortunately with a HDD recording the Flexible Record mode is almost meaningless unless you assume the entire recording is destined for burning.
    Far better to add a good selection of bitrates to choose from.
     
  25. Rasczak

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    Sorry but that is rubbish. In many instances the Panasonic implementation of Flexible Record is easier to use than the other models - especially if you are trying to copy multiple episodes to a disk.
     
  26. jesmat2003

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    I found the Flexible Recording option to be invaluable on my E85. It's one of the most useful features on the machine, especially when archiving video tapes and recording films off the television. The fact that you can't set the bitrate on a one-off recording to allow for the editing out of commercials is a minor quibble against an otherwise excellent feature.
     
  27. Rob20

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    Surely if you tell the HDD to record for an hour and 15mins, that's exactly what it has, and should do. How is the machine to know that you were to cut out the adverts, and that you actually wanted it to carry on recording for longer than you specified? What were you recording that needed such a high quality recording. In my experience the diference between Xp and Sp recordings of digital tv is slight. I personally rarely bother and just record in Sp. For tv series I'll often use Lp.
     
  28. phelings

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    Jesmat-it IS an excellent feature,what I am saying is that other makes have the feature,but allow for editing aswell.
    You Panny fans can come up with all the stupid excuses you want,but the FR mode is designed to fit all your material on a disc in optimum quality.The way it works was fine for a machine like the HS2 where there was no high speed copy to-R,but on modern models where there is ,its limited.Surely,one of the best reasons to get a HDD,and one we constantly push at new buyers,is for editing.So I think the Panny should take into account that its likely that anything on the HDD will need editing .If it doesn't,why not copy it straight to -R?The Pioneer and other models allow you to set the quality levels you know you need,then record on the HDD at that level for as long as you want.No matter what excuses you come up with to show how you get round this,its a flaw that need not be there.
    Rob 20-I don't mean to be impolite,but LP?Are you not quality conscious?Why bother with DVD then?The machine does NOT know you want to record longer than 75 minutes,but thats not the point.With the Panny you CANNOT tell it you want to record longer than 75 mins at that quality level.Which is what he wants to do_On my Pioneer,my 3.5 hour recording from Sky+ is recorded at 2.5 hour level so that after editing it copies to dvd from HDD at high speed.With Panny,this basic HDD/DVD function is not possible-it seems
     
  29. Jules

    Jules
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    It seems Phelings and I are the only ones really grasbing this issue.
    I'm certianly not a Panasonic hater, and I still like my E85.... so I'm not slating it.
    But I wish people would just accept that this feature needs to be improved..... it has not and cannot be defended by anything that's been said in this thread.
     
  30. Rasczak

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    But that's the whole point - it doesn't need improving. If you want it implemented a different way then buy a Toshiba or Pioneer - but most users PREFER it the way it is - I certainly do. The whole point of the Panasonic models is to present an easy interface - if you start offering custom bitrate settings you move away from this.

    I don't like to harsh Jules - but if you go out and buy a Recorder on the spur of the moment without seeking advice - then you can hardly complain when it doesn't meet all your requirements.
     

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