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Why buy LCD when we have DLP with HS2+?

A

alanfcross

Guest
Putting aside brand loyalty and sticking with proven technology (arguably less than objective reasons for the buyer), are there any other reasons to prefer LCD over the latest DLP with the 6/7 segment colour wheels that claim to eliminate the rainbow effect? The latest DLP seems to me the only way to go, from what I have read so far.
 

Bristol Pete

Well-known Member
Fair comment.....

But you do need to consider the inherent flaws of DLP technology that affect some people.

Rainbows aside, headaches, eye strain and dithering are real problems for some people irrespective of how many segments there are in the colour wheel.

In my opinion of course.

Cap :)
 

PJTX100

Distinguished Member
The main reason I went LCD was because you can get a WXGA machine for around a grand and that didn't deem an option for DLP when I was looking...PJ
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
Call it the rainbow effect or whatever you like. Rainbows are just the visible outcome of the sequential colour display inherent in all these one-chip, colour wheel, devices. And this sequential colour display causes eye strain, nausea, headaches (etc) in those who are sensitive to it.

That's the reason. 6-7 segment wheels running at (however many) times speed don't actually solve the problem; they simply reduce the proportion of people who will suffer. At some point, they may get fast enough that even I won't suffer. Not yet, though.

Until they have 3-chip DLPs at less than idiotic prices, LCD for me, I'm afraid. Sequential colour and my eyes/brain simply don't go together.

And I'm not alone. There are others here who have seen refresh artefacts of one sort or another on 3-tube CRT devices, and on certain Plasmas. Like I do.
 

WonkyEwok

Active Member
Can anyone comment on why 3 chip dlp is so expensive (>3* 1 chip dlp)? Is it just "because we can?" .

I wouldn't have thought alignment was tougher than 3*lcd 1280*720 (£999 for Hitachi TX100) ?
 
P

Pete Delaney

Guest
There are many DLP owners out there and yet the advice regarding headaches, eyestrain and rainbows are numerous. I am sorely tempted to head down the DLP route for reasons of picture quality/no dust problems and picture quality longevity. If the problems of DLP are so common, how is it that the machines are able to sell at all. I would like to invite any honest and open views from our members who own DLP. At the moment I am burying my head in the sand, I do not wish to believe that I (or the missus) would be affected as the contrast levels and general picture quality seem to be superb (reviews/opinions all seem to agree). As always the ability to find a retailer who is able to provide demonstrations :rolleyes: is a real problem for many potential buyers. Many people here make a blind purchase based upon the experience of other projector owners.
 

KraGorn

Active Member
WonkyEwok said:
Can anyone comment on why 3 chip dlp is so expensive (>3* 1 chip dlp)? Is it just "because we can?" .
Yup. :( I've seen this debated many times and never seen a single attempt to justify the absurd pricing due to technical reasons.
 

Louis Mazzini

Active Member
Pete Delaney said:
I would like to invite any honest and open views from our members who own DLP.

I'd invite quotes from everyone if I were you (let's face it, you'll get them anyway; mine follows shortly!) otherwise there will be that element of people speaking up for the technology they paid quite a lot for, it's human nature after all.

I'm with Nigel above: I've seen lots of single-chip DLPs, all the way up the price/spec range, and I'd rather have a semi-competent LCD to ANY of them, they're just too uncomfortable to watch. In my experience, the number of people who suffer with DLP is much larger than magazines would have you believe.

(It seems I come here once a month or so to say the same thing, mainly just to keep people new to this game aware of the fact that there are potentially terminally serious problems with DLP.)
 

LV426

Administrator
Staff member
The problem is, the danger of spending several thousand on something which you later find uncomfortable to use. Note the you in that sentence. Not me, nor anyone else here. Just you (which includes your wife, kids, dog, anyone else who is liable to share your cinema with you. OK I was kidding about the dog).

You (all) may be members of the (how many is it - 75%?) of us for whom DLP refresh artefacts are a matter of theory without practical impact.

Or, one or more of "you" is one of the remaining (whatever's left - 25%?) of us who can't enjoy a movie when displayed on the device.

So - getting quotes from others can only inform you how they see their DLP; not how you would see it.
 

RTFM

Active Member
I see rainbows on my Panasonic series 3 42 inch plasma (about 3.5 yrs old) anyone got any theories on this ?

Jeff :rtfm:
 

GrahamMG

Well-known Member
It is my experience that if people don't go looking for something they are less likely to find it. Given various variables obviously a LCD pj cannot give as good a picture as a properly executed DLP design.... I've seen a lot of projectors and have never been fooled into thinking that an LCD gives as good a picture as a DLP. I accept that some people simply cannot watch an image of this type for various reasons and just as many also can't watch an LCD for other reasons. I can watch both and one is a better picture than the other suitably fed.
3 chip DLP's cost more than single chip 'cos the formatter cards are expensive items and the 3 chip has two more...... I am not saying I like the price though........ If an HT500Link was £10k I'd buy one tomorrow......
 

theritz

Active Member
All projection technologies have their upsides and downsides - for some, CRT surpasses practically anything digital can produce, some find DLP unsuitable due to rainbows/eye fatigue for the reasons concisely spelled out by Nigel, some regard LCD issues like VB or FPN or screendoor unacceptable. At the end of the day I don't believe there is, in the mainstream, any universal "best" or "better" - there's only what suits the individual interms of budget and personal preference. 9" liquid coupled CRT continues to be regarded as the zenith of optical performance, but that's in a very different league in every respect from the mainstream market - a new Marquee LC9500 will run to £30,000 including full setup and I haven't read any authoritative opinion that suggests that such a setup would be outperformed by current 3-chip DLPs which are, unbelievably in my opinion, in the same price category.

I agree with the direct answer to the original question in this thread - all other issues aside, why pay twice as much (or more) for a 1280x720 projector ? I believe that DLP projectors are over-priced by reference to any perceived performance improvement over the current crop of LCD 1280x720 projectors. If one is unaffected by DLP issues and budget is unimportant, then this point is moot, but a look through the forums suggests that prople in that fortunate position are very much a small minority.

S.
 

GrahamMG

Well-known Member
Of course all pj technologies have upsides and downsides if they didn't the others wouldn't exist ;) I work with LCD's all the time and they have a place to play certianly, they are a cheap way to get a home cinema, many people buy them and are happy with their purchase, the problem comes when trying to argue that there is better available as it normally gets to the point where the person feels they have bought the wrong product and will defend it to the hilt.....This always leads to belittling the competition with well worn stock phrases, some justified on some moddels and others plainly not on other models. Some people are genuine, others maybe do a bit of bandwagon jumping based on fairly outdated information (sometimes). High brightness, low contrast, yellow panels, dust, screen door, chicken wire effect call it what you like but that is seen on high quality LCD's, that doesn't make them ideal home cinema choices, but price does...... I don't see many real cinema's investing in LCD technology but I do see them investing in DLP digital technology, again money has everything to do with this but to rubbish the current technology shows some lack of understanding I'm afraid. 9" CRT's well yes but then I can't see many having those in a home either unless they are single (or about to be!!!) :rotfl:

LCD's, yes at the cheaper end of the market (which is where they sell well) and in my opinion it was wrong to release low spec DLP's to complete, the mid to high end is DLP largely and the high end is either CRT or proper digital cinema. You pays your money you takes your choice and live with the fact that better things are always a bit further up the spend ladder.
Fair?
 

PJTX100

Distinguished Member
GrahamMG said:
High brightness, low contrast, yellow panels, dust, screen door, chicken wire effect call it what you like but that is seen on high quality LCD's, that doesn't make them ideal home cinema choices, but price does......
Since joining this forum I haven't seen a statement I've disagreed more with. Utter rubbish...PJ
 

Louis Mazzini

Active Member
GrahamMG said:
High brightness, low contrast, yellow panels, dust, screen door, chicken wire effect call it what you like but that is seen on high quality LCD's

Well, Graham, since you raised the subject of outdated information..!

GrahamMG said:
I don't see many real cinema's investing in LCD technology but I do see them investing in DLP digital technology

Single-chip...?
 

theritz

Active Member
Graham,

High brightness, low contrast, yellow panels, dust, screen door, chicken wire effect call it what you like but that is seen on high quality LCD's, that doesn't make them ideal home cinema choices,

I wouldn't go so far as PJTX100, but you should read user reviews here of the Sony HS50, or read independent reviews (Bill Cushman, or Cine4home), you might revisit the high brightness, low contrast screendoor etc comments. Reeling off generalities isn't particularly meaningful - general foibles can be listed against DLP or CRT. As far as the price/performance argument is concerned, the same could be said of practically anything - as far as projectors are concerned the point of diminishing marginal returns in performance has dropped dramatically. Does a Marantz S4 give a better performance than a Sony HS50 ? I would expect so. Is that performance increment worth the price difference ? (£1600 vs £8000)? That's a question that only the buyer can answer, and the same comparison can be made between any two projectors.

Sean.
 

Muf

Active Member
"6/7 segment colour wheels that claim to eliminate the rainbow effect?"
alanfcross, I think it would be more accurate to say that 6/7 segment colour wheels dramatically reduce the rainbow effect, it is still there but to a much lesser degree.

"I would like to invite any honest and open views from our members who own DLP."
Pete, I am a DLP convert. I own a Toshiba MT-8 which I have had for almost a year and a half. I wrote about it here before on a similar thread, it is now just a few hours short of 3000 Hrs on the original lamp and still looks as good as day one and I never had any problems with it. I intend to change the lamp at the 3000 Hr mark and I am told I will notice an increase in brightness as they do go dim with use. I myself am sensitive to the rainbow effect but with no suffering involved. I can see rainbows on the MT-8 but much less than on my last DLP (a first generation device). As I see it there now seems to be four categories of rainbow viewer:
1. Those who see and suffer
2. Those who don't see and suffer
3. Those who see and don't suffer
4. Those who don't see and don't suffer
Because I see rainbows so easily myself and I have a fairly large thruput of visitors who look at my PJ, I make a point of asking them if they noticed the rainbow effect, I never use the word rainbow in case they think I am referring to some halo shaped effect, vivid red green and blue flashes is what I ask them about. Out of a cross section of children, teenagers, adults and pensioners approximately 60 in all, I have not found any who admit to seeing the effect. Maybe they are just being nice to me and don't want to insult my PJ. Certainly none of them got sick looking at it, the WC is right next to my cinema room.
I am not aware of any proper independent study of the effect but in my opinion it is not a problem for a vast majority of people. Alanfcross, I hope this is of some help, I presume you are contemplating a DLP purchase.

Jim.
 

foghorn

Active Member
For the moment let’s leave aside the argument over rainbows, dithering, screendoor, vertical banding etc.

What would help is for a shootout to be arranged between the Sony HS50 and a single chip DLP HD2+ or Darkchip3 with the only criteria being picture quality. Which projector would come out in top?

Foghorn
 

Bristol Pete

Well-known Member
Another point here is the subjectivity of the 'problems' that can be better or indeed worse on individual brands, especially DLP.

Over the course of the last 2.5 years I have either owned, loaned or demoed the following -

LCD

Sanyo Z1
Sony HS2
Panasonic AE300
Sony HS10
Sony HS50

DLP

SHARP Z91E
NEC HT1000
INFOCUS 7200.

In reference to Pete Delaneys question all I can say is that some DLP machines affected me some did not. I certainly saw rainbows on the Sharp Z91E but they never spoilt my viewing, though I only had it at home for one week on loan. The PQ on the sharp was superb, no movement, no dithering, just pure class.

However, the later DLP models I have seen over extended periods caused me big eye problems. Firstly, the PQ on the NEC was amazing but I saw, and only I saw terrible dithering. My friends who came over to watch the odd movie did not see it and all suggested that I was making it up. :suicide: However, it is a serious issue as it simply ruined my movie watching experience as I looked at the movement in the picture, rather than watching the film. The rainbows shown by the HT1000 were a non issue.

Finally, the INFOCUS 7200, an incredibly bright DLP projector, referred to as a light canon, gave me terrible eye strain and subsequent banging head aches. :eek: They would simply kick in 20 minutes into the movie. Again, a situation I could not live with and one that could have been an expensive mistake had I not had the fortune to demo the machine at home.

Hence my decision to go back to an LCD machine (HS50) and forgo the small benefit of DLP. Sure LCD has its some inherent weakness but a least I can sit back, enjoy a flick and not make myself ill in the process.

At the end of the day, speaking as someone who suffers from bi-polar affective disorder (manic depression) surely its just about enjoying the damned things and not bogging ourselves down with these faults, for want of a better word???

I know this is easier said than done as we look for faults. These things cost us a lot of our hard earned money, but I try and draw the line under getting too upset with equipment now because at the end of the day whats it all about......1.5 hours worth of throw away entertainment?

Just my humble opinion.

Captain Benefit :)
 

RTFM

Active Member
foghorn said:
For the moment let’s leave aside the argument over rainbows, dithering, screendoor, vertical banding etc.

What would help is for a shootout to be arranged between the Sony HS50 and a single chip DLP HD2+ or Darkchip3 with the only criteria being picture quality. Which projector would come out in top?

Foghorn

But Foghorn, the very characteristics you want to leave aside have a profound effect on picture quality so you have to address them.

Jeff :rtfm:
 

RTFM

Active Member
Captain,

I was interested to read your experiences with rainbows with the Sharp and the NEC. I was expecting you to say the opposite as the Sharp has 5 speed wheel and the NEC 4 speed.

Jeff :rtfm:
 

Bristol Pete

Well-known Member
Jeff,

Surely an example of the reason this very thread in alive and causing so much interest.

How odd. Yep, rainbows on the Sharp, nothing on the NEC aside from dithering. Yet, as you say, the speed of the wheels suggest that it would be the other way around.

Cap :)
 

RTFM

Active Member
Cap

I had a dem NEC HT1000 when they first came out and I saw rainbows big time.

I still have a demo Sharp XV-Z90E knocking about and rainbows don't bother me at all.

For me the difference between 4 and 5 speed is mega.

Strange (but good) how we all perceive things differently.

Jeff :rtfm:
 

Bristol Pete

Well-known Member
Strange (but good) how we all perceive things differently.

Too true.

But that is surely the exact reason we all stress to new members or people looking to switch to DLP that a demo or pro-longed view is essential. Something that you must support as a dealer. The last thing you want is unhappy/ill clients.

:lesson: Finally, fao Pete Delany, the issues raised by Jeff in retort to my post must surely enlighten people to the fact that for some, DLP is a big no no. (Hello Nigel)

To summarise, it is not an exact science, though it is a fact.

Cap :smashin:
 

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