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Why buy LCD when we have DLP with HS2+?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by alanfcross, Feb 2, 2005.

  1. alanfcross

    alanfcross
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    Putting aside brand loyalty and sticking with proven technology (arguably less than objective reasons for the buyer), are there any other reasons to prefer LCD over the latest DLP with the 6/7 segment colour wheels that claim to eliminate the rainbow effect? The latest DLP seems to me the only way to go, from what I have read so far.
     
  2. Bristol Pete

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    Fair comment.....

    But you do need to consider the inherent flaws of DLP technology that affect some people.

    Rainbows aside, headaches, eye strain and dithering are real problems for some people irrespective of how many segments there are in the colour wheel.

    In my opinion of course.

    Cap :)
     
  3. PJTX100

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    The main reason I went LCD was because you can get a WXGA machine for around a grand and that didn't deem an option for DLP when I was looking...PJ
     
  4. LV426

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    Call it the rainbow effect or whatever you like. Rainbows are just the visible outcome of the sequential colour display inherent in all these one-chip, colour wheel, devices. And this sequential colour display causes eye strain, nausea, headaches (etc) in those who are sensitive to it.

    That's the reason. 6-7 segment wheels running at (however many) times speed don't actually solve the problem; they simply reduce the proportion of people who will suffer. At some point, they may get fast enough that even I won't suffer. Not yet, though.

    Until they have 3-chip DLPs at less than idiotic prices, LCD for me, I'm afraid. Sequential colour and my eyes/brain simply don't go together.

    And I'm not alone. There are others here who have seen refresh artefacts of one sort or another on 3-tube CRT devices, and on certain Plasmas. Like I do.
     
  5. WonkyEwok

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    Can anyone comment on why 3 chip dlp is so expensive (>3* 1 chip dlp)? Is it just "because we can?" .

    I wouldn't have thought alignment was tougher than 3*lcd 1280*720 (£999 for Hitachi TX100) ?
     
  6. Pete Delaney

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    There are many DLP owners out there and yet the advice regarding headaches, eyestrain and rainbows are numerous. I am sorely tempted to head down the DLP route for reasons of picture quality/no dust problems and picture quality longevity. If the problems of DLP are so common, how is it that the machines are able to sell at all. I would like to invite any honest and open views from our members who own DLP. At the moment I am burying my head in the sand, I do not wish to believe that I (or the missus) would be affected as the contrast levels and general picture quality seem to be superb (reviews/opinions all seem to agree). As always the ability to find a retailer who is able to provide demonstrations :rolleyes: is a real problem for many potential buyers. Many people here make a blind purchase based upon the experience of other projector owners.
     
  7. KraGorn

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    Yup. :( I've seen this debated many times and never seen a single attempt to justify the absurd pricing due to technical reasons.
     
  8. Louis Mazzini

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    I'd invite quotes from everyone if I were you (let's face it, you'll get them anyway; mine follows shortly!) otherwise there will be that element of people speaking up for the technology they paid quite a lot for, it's human nature after all.

    I'm with Nigel above: I've seen lots of single-chip DLPs, all the way up the price/spec range, and I'd rather have a semi-competent LCD to ANY of them, they're just too uncomfortable to watch. In my experience, the number of people who suffer with DLP is much larger than magazines would have you believe.

    (It seems I come here once a month or so to say the same thing, mainly just to keep people new to this game aware of the fact that there are potentially terminally serious problems with DLP.)
     
  9. LV426

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    The problem is, the danger of spending several thousand on something which you later find uncomfortable to use. Note the you in that sentence. Not me, nor anyone else here. Just you (which includes your wife, kids, dog, anyone else who is liable to share your cinema with you. OK I was kidding about the dog).

    You (all) may be members of the (how many is it - 75%?) of us for whom DLP refresh artefacts are a matter of theory without practical impact.

    Or, one or more of "you" is one of the remaining (whatever's left - 25%?) of us who can't enjoy a movie when displayed on the device.

    So - getting quotes from others can only inform you how they see their DLP; not how you would see it.
     
  10. RTFM

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    I see rainbows on my Panasonic series 3 42 inch plasma (about 3.5 yrs old) anyone got any theories on this ?

    Jeff :rtfm:
     
  11. Audionyx

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    I even saw rainbows once after downing 8 pints of Warsteiner on holiday!
     
  12. GrahamMG

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    It is my experience that if people don't go looking for something they are less likely to find it. Given various variables obviously a LCD pj cannot give as good a picture as a properly executed DLP design.... I've seen a lot of projectors and have never been fooled into thinking that an LCD gives as good a picture as a DLP. I accept that some people simply cannot watch an image of this type for various reasons and just as many also can't watch an LCD for other reasons. I can watch both and one is a better picture than the other suitably fed.
    3 chip DLP's cost more than single chip 'cos the formatter cards are expensive items and the 3 chip has two more...... I am not saying I like the price though........ If an HT500Link was £10k I'd buy one tomorrow......
     
  13. theritz

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    All projection technologies have their upsides and downsides - for some, CRT surpasses practically anything digital can produce, some find DLP unsuitable due to rainbows/eye fatigue for the reasons concisely spelled out by Nigel, some regard LCD issues like VB or FPN or screendoor unacceptable. At the end of the day I don't believe there is, in the mainstream, any universal "best" or "better" - there's only what suits the individual interms of budget and personal preference. 9" liquid coupled CRT continues to be regarded as the zenith of optical performance, but that's in a very different league in every respect from the mainstream market - a new Marquee LC9500 will run to £30,000 including full setup and I haven't read any authoritative opinion that suggests that such a setup would be outperformed by current 3-chip DLPs which are, unbelievably in my opinion, in the same price category.

    I agree with the direct answer to the original question in this thread - all other issues aside, why pay twice as much (or more) for a 1280x720 projector ? I believe that DLP projectors are over-priced by reference to any perceived performance improvement over the current crop of LCD 1280x720 projectors. If one is unaffected by DLP issues and budget is unimportant, then this point is moot, but a look through the forums suggests that prople in that fortunate position are very much a small minority.

    S.
     
  14. GrahamMG

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    Of course all pj technologies have upsides and downsides if they didn't the others wouldn't exist ;) I work with LCD's all the time and they have a place to play certianly, they are a cheap way to get a home cinema, many people buy them and are happy with their purchase, the problem comes when trying to argue that there is better available as it normally gets to the point where the person feels they have bought the wrong product and will defend it to the hilt.....This always leads to belittling the competition with well worn stock phrases, some justified on some moddels and others plainly not on other models. Some people are genuine, others maybe do a bit of bandwagon jumping based on fairly outdated information (sometimes). High brightness, low contrast, yellow panels, dust, screen door, chicken wire effect call it what you like but that is seen on high quality LCD's, that doesn't make them ideal home cinema choices, but price does...... I don't see many real cinema's investing in LCD technology but I do see them investing in DLP digital technology, again money has everything to do with this but to rubbish the current technology shows some lack of understanding I'm afraid. 9" CRT's well yes but then I can't see many having those in a home either unless they are single (or about to be!!!) :rotfl:

    LCD's, yes at the cheaper end of the market (which is where they sell well) and in my opinion it was wrong to release low spec DLP's to complete, the mid to high end is DLP largely and the high end is either CRT or proper digital cinema. You pays your money you takes your choice and live with the fact that better things are always a bit further up the spend ladder.
    Fair?
     
  15. PJTX100

    PJTX100
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    Since joining this forum I haven't seen a statement I've disagreed more with. Utter rubbish...PJ
     
  16. Louis Mazzini

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    Well, Graham, since you raised the subject of outdated information..!

    Single-chip...?
     
  17. theritz

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    Graham,

    I wouldn't go so far as PJTX100, but you should read user reviews here of the Sony HS50, or read independent reviews (Bill Cushman, or Cine4home), you might revisit the high brightness, low contrast screendoor etc comments. Reeling off generalities isn't particularly meaningful - general foibles can be listed against DLP or CRT. As far as the price/performance argument is concerned, the same could be said of practically anything - as far as projectors are concerned the point of diminishing marginal returns in performance has dropped dramatically. Does a Marantz S4 give a better performance than a Sony HS50 ? I would expect so. Is that performance increment worth the price difference ? (£1600 vs £8000)? That's a question that only the buyer can answer, and the same comparison can be made between any two projectors.

    Sean.
     
  18. Muf

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    "6/7 segment colour wheels that claim to eliminate the rainbow effect?"
    alanfcross, I think it would be more accurate to say that 6/7 segment colour wheels dramatically reduce the rainbow effect, it is still there but to a much lesser degree.

    "I would like to invite any honest and open views from our members who own DLP."
    Pete, I am a DLP convert. I own a Toshiba MT-8 which I have had for almost a year and a half. I wrote about it here before on a similar thread, it is now just a few hours short of 3000 Hrs on the original lamp and still looks as good as day one and I never had any problems with it. I intend to change the lamp at the 3000 Hr mark and I am told I will notice an increase in brightness as they do go dim with use. I myself am sensitive to the rainbow effect but with no suffering involved. I can see rainbows on the MT-8 but much less than on my last DLP (a first generation device). As I see it there now seems to be four categories of rainbow viewer:
    1. Those who see and suffer
    2. Those who don't see and suffer
    3. Those who see and don't suffer
    4. Those who don't see and don't suffer
    Because I see rainbows so easily myself and I have a fairly large thruput of visitors who look at my PJ, I make a point of asking them if they noticed the rainbow effect, I never use the word rainbow in case they think I am referring to some halo shaped effect, vivid red green and blue flashes is what I ask them about. Out of a cross section of children, teenagers, adults and pensioners approximately 60 in all, I have not found any who admit to seeing the effect. Maybe they are just being nice to me and don't want to insult my PJ. Certainly none of them got sick looking at it, the WC is right next to my cinema room.
    I am not aware of any proper independent study of the effect but in my opinion it is not a problem for a vast majority of people. Alanfcross, I hope this is of some help, I presume you are contemplating a DLP purchase.

    Jim.
     
  19. foghorn

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    For the moment let’s leave aside the argument over rainbows, dithering, screendoor, vertical banding etc.

    What would help is for a shootout to be arranged between the Sony HS50 and a single chip DLP HD2+ or Darkchip3 with the only criteria being picture quality. Which projector would come out in top?

    Foghorn
     
  20. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
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    Another point here is the subjectivity of the 'problems' that can be better or indeed worse on individual brands, especially DLP.

    Over the course of the last 2.5 years I have either owned, loaned or demoed the following -

    LCD

    Sanyo Z1
    Sony HS2
    Panasonic AE300
    Sony HS10
    Sony HS50

    DLP

    SHARP Z91E
    NEC HT1000
    INFOCUS 7200.

    In reference to Pete Delaneys question all I can say is that some DLP machines affected me some did not. I certainly saw rainbows on the Sharp Z91E but they never spoilt my viewing, though I only had it at home for one week on loan. The PQ on the sharp was superb, no movement, no dithering, just pure class.

    However, the later DLP models I have seen over extended periods caused me big eye problems. Firstly, the PQ on the NEC was amazing but I saw, and only I saw terrible dithering. My friends who came over to watch the odd movie did not see it and all suggested that I was making it up. :suicide: However, it is a serious issue as it simply ruined my movie watching experience as I looked at the movement in the picture, rather than watching the film. The rainbows shown by the HT1000 were a non issue.

    Finally, the INFOCUS 7200, an incredibly bright DLP projector, referred to as a light canon, gave me terrible eye strain and subsequent banging head aches. :eek: They would simply kick in 20 minutes into the movie. Again, a situation I could not live with and one that could have been an expensive mistake had I not had the fortune to demo the machine at home.

    Hence my decision to go back to an LCD machine (HS50) and forgo the small benefit of DLP. Sure LCD has its some inherent weakness but a least I can sit back, enjoy a flick and not make myself ill in the process.

    At the end of the day, speaking as someone who suffers from bi-polar affective disorder (manic depression) surely its just about enjoying the damned things and not bogging ourselves down with these faults, for want of a better word???

    I know this is easier said than done as we look for faults. These things cost us a lot of our hard earned money, but I try and draw the line under getting too upset with equipment now because at the end of the day whats it all about......1.5 hours worth of throw away entertainment?

    Just my humble opinion.

    Captain Benefit :)
     
  21. RTFM

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    But Foghorn, the very characteristics you want to leave aside have a profound effect on picture quality so you have to address them.

    Jeff :rtfm:
     
  22. RTFM

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    Captain,

    I was interested to read your experiences with rainbows with the Sharp and the NEC. I was expecting you to say the opposite as the Sharp has 5 speed wheel and the NEC 4 speed.

    Jeff :rtfm:
     
  23. Bristol Pete

    Bristol Pete
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    Jeff,

    Surely an example of the reason this very thread in alive and causing so much interest.

    How odd. Yep, rainbows on the Sharp, nothing on the NEC aside from dithering. Yet, as you say, the speed of the wheels suggest that it would be the other way around.

    Cap :)
     
  24. RTFM

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    Cap

    I had a dem NEC HT1000 when they first came out and I saw rainbows big time.

    I still have a demo Sharp XV-Z90E knocking about and rainbows don't bother me at all.

    For me the difference between 4 and 5 speed is mega.

    Strange (but good) how we all perceive things differently.

    Jeff :rtfm:
     
  25. Bristol Pete

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    Too true.

    But that is surely the exact reason we all stress to new members or people looking to switch to DLP that a demo or pro-longed view is essential. Something that you must support as a dealer. The last thing you want is unhappy/ill clients.

    :lesson: Finally, fao Pete Delany, the issues raised by Jeff in retort to my post must surely enlighten people to the fact that for some, DLP is a big no no. (Hello Nigel)

    To summarise, it is not an exact science, though it is a fact.

    Cap :smashin:
     
  26. Pete Delaney

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    Thanks guys, this is one of the more informative and open threads I have read for quite some time, It shows the keen interest (and in some cases passion) which you have for this particular clash of technologys. Ultimately I feel that I have been given the information which will enable me to make an informed choice. I still have time on my hands and I will certainly not rush into a blind purchase...I will definately endeavour to find a retailer who has the time and patience to demonstrate at least 2 of each type of projector before I part with my cash. Watch this space...... :)

    Pete.
     
  27. Sporran

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    I think the word demo is really appropriate. I loadned from work both LCD and DLP, the latter within just switching it on was like a fireworks display, yet wifey saw no issue. The LCD i had was by no means top of the range, but when you first try a PJ, trust me compared to CRT anything will make you smile.

    Then my HS50 come and smile, i was called the Joker for a week in work lmao. I certaintly had all the artefacts of LCD on the NEC, screendoor, real bad VB, poor contrast etc.

    HS50 so far nothing. Finally managed this week to get me screen mounted. Been using a Dry Wipe Board the last few weeks loaned from work. WOW WOW WOW, the do really make a difference.
     
  28. Bristol Pete

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    Pete,

    Glad our experiences can and will be of help.

    Keep us up to date on any potential purchases and we will all endeavour to help. As I said, buying a projector can and often is a minefield with the whole process being far from an exact science. Can I advise you to consider one of the three forum sponsors -

    Discount electrical, nexnix and ivojo are top top companies who offer fantastic customer service. They are all passionate about projection too and they all know what they are talking about.

    Cap :)
     
  29. GrahamMG

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    Well that got everyone going, controversial me, never.

    I am disapointed but not surprised at PJTX100's reply and if one re-reads my posts probably helps prove a couple of points I made, on that I will be drawn no further.

    I'll take the other comments though as more constructive.

    My point about cinema's and digital technology being DLP based was a statment of fact it was not a single chip vs triple chip debate. Leaving cost aside the technology is sound and is not about to go away as Cinema owners and the film studios do not invest that amount of money in something they are not going to get a return on.

    LCD technology suffers from being less than perfect, I have bought (probably hundreds), installed, fixed and in some cases dispaired over them, this also applies to DLP's which clearly a small number of people do suffer when viewing them (I would also love to know that triggers it) but I have never had anyone complain about this whilst watching a good DLP and I deal with an awful lot of people (fussy types as well). So I can only concude that a small number of people suffer but as another chap says here, the only sure way to be happy with your purchase (it is your money) is to see it yourself, with an open mind not with some well meaning expert pushing you towards an LCD or DLP (cos that is what they have in stock or have a better margin on) pointing out all the bad bits. If you don't see anything wrong there is nothing wrong ;)

    Theritz makes the point well about cost being the deciding factor here for the vast majority, I have not seen a sub £8k LCD beat a £8k DLP on picture performance in the home cinema environment (and I have seen a great deal....) either measured or subjective...... To compare a £2k LCD against a well designed £8k DLP is just plain daft...(even if the DLP should not cost nearly that much!).

    In reply to the "brightness,contrast,dust etc.", I currently have two projectors on the shelf for repair, I can fix yellow panels dust and misalignment (very common) but the other points are innherrent to the design of LCD, sure they are making strides to address this but LCD's were designed for presentation use (i.e. high brightness) which in turn effects contrast, it is only now with the likes of the latest LCD devices that serious effort is being made to address this with some success but other technologies had a head start and it still shows.....

    Jeff also makes the point about picture quality well and I also agree that DLP's of worthy quality (and I don't mean sub £4k) are far more expensive than they really need to be and this alone is enough to put many off purchasing a SIM2/Barco/Marrantz type of thing but they do offer a serious jump in quality over the <£2k sector and with large fast 6/7 segment (I prefer 6 but....) running at very high speeds just about eliminate any concerns over "rainbows" and hopefully have far better optics than the lower end product which has a marked effect on quality.

    The latest Texas HD3 (or HD2+) offer a colour balance and contrast that stands reasonable scrutiny with blacks being detailed in a way that LCD hasn't reached yet in much the same way as people argue that CRT still has the edge. Not all DLP projectors do this and all models with the same Texas chipset are certianly not the same performance.

    A home demo is frankly essential if you are parting with serious wedges of cash as your room is the only place you wil be watching it in at the end of the day as will careful choice of screen material and I mean a proper screen not painted MDF/walls.... I regularly see people spend over £2k on a screen.......It does make a difference although clearly is a ridiculous spend on a £2k projector unless one is considering a big upgradde in display later.....As pullling ceilings down and joist work is not for the casual user.....

    In summary it is perfectly acceptable for people to spend £2k or less on a LCD projector as that meets their (or rather their partners) budget and gives that 7ft wow factor screen as it is the cheapest way of achieving a big image but please never assume that it is anything other than a solution that fits your budget and personal taste, as impressive stuff is further up the cost ladder and it will almost certainly be DLP based for now. I genuinely feel sorry for people that are badly effected by in my opinion badly implimented (for cost reasons or just bad design) DLP projectors and will believe they have genuine issues, I would respectfully suggest however that these issues effect a small minority (human nature is to complain rather than praise!) and usually the cheaper end of the DLP market.

    I am about as unbiased as you can get in this game as I have no axe to grind, no manufacturer alliance and it isn't my own money I spend usually and personally only spending on my own several different types of technology after evaluating with the company installs, I leave it to others to say what they think of what I show them, most end up spending that bit more knowing that it gives better results.....

    As I said at the top of this "controversial" me, never, I would hope also not overly emotional... :D
     
  30. Neelix

    Neelix
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    Some interesting views being proffered here. I am of the opinion that DLP technology certainly appears to be the way forward especially given the introduction of 3 chip projectors in many new cinemas. That said, I like many others here suffer from rainbows and moderate eye strain. My girlfriend sees the rainbows but worse still, suffers from eye strain and headaches after very little viewing. While there are inherent weaknesses to all technologies, the above symptoms go way beyond lower contrast or SDE, they simply making watching at best uncomfortable and at worse nauseating, headache inducing and ultimately unwatchable. The PQ is fantastic, and I would love to own a high DLP as my first choice but I could never go down this route while they use a single chip and colour wheel technology.

    Regarding the cost of DLP projectors, well I would like to ask this question. Why is it that you can purchase the latest HD2+ chip for £1500-2000... in a RPTV? I may be wrong, but I would surmise that a RPTV has at least as many if not more components than a projector. So why are HD2+ chip projectors in the region of £1000-2000 more?

    I have just ordered a Sony HS50 because it appears to be the best of the current LCD projectors (no VB, no SDE and very good contrast). What I do know is that anyone can happily sit in front of this projector without any fear of rainbows, eye strain and headaches. When you spend £1000-2000 it is important to know that there are no physically induced drawbacks inherent to the technology. While DLP may offer an improved PQ (although the HS50 appears to have closed the gap considerably) it is a very much flawed technology which will I'm sure be perfected with time.
     

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