1. Join Now

    AVForums.com uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

which versions films should I be buying?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Adam M, Apr 21, 2004.

  1. Adam M

    Adam M
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2001
    Messages:
    724
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +19
    Need to ask this as I am somewhat lost.

    I have an 868 connected to an hs20 via hdmi. and to an ax10i via the i link.

    since natural resolution of pal is better, should I be buying pal dvds? or should I go for ntsc because pal progressive is inferior to ntsc progressive.

    I am not sure of this second comment, it is an assumption based on the standard frame rate of ntsc compared with pakl being more easily adaptable to progressive signals.

    any help or explanations would be greatly appreciated.
     
  2. docfeelgood

    docfeelgood
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2003
    Messages:
    237
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +1
    Hi Adam

    I can't help you too much on the DVD side of things..

    Only that the transfer quality varies from disc to disc... but in my experience NTSC discs tend to be better quality transfers. I have also found that NTSC progressive gives a better picture than PAL progressive.

    However, I'm one of the people who thinks progressive scan was just no big deal (especially PAL). It was something everyone had to have (because the mags told us so) but in reality a good interlaced player can outperform an average progressive player.

    I am really very very interested on your opinions of your 868 via HDMI to your HS20.

    I have an HS20 and am waiting to demo an 868 and an Arcam 79 via HDMI. I am hoping for an increase in clarity and detail from my budget player.

    What is your experience and views on this?
    Are you using the scaler?

    Also what's the 868 like for 2 channel stereo via the pioneer amp?

    sorry to be a pest.. but you are at where I want to be.. so I have to ask :)

    regards

    Doc
     
  3. rscott4563

    rscott4563
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,051
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1
    Not too sure of what you mean here, in what way exactly do you think Pal progressive scan differs (i.e is worse) from NTSC progressive scan?

    As the HS20 is a HD 1366x768 PJ you would be best feeding it as much picture information as possible, so Pal rather than NTSC.
    Now is the difficult bit, I don't know the details of the HS20 though there are a number of people on this forum who do and will probably be able to help you there, but the thing you'll need to play with and test is whats better, to use the 886 to upscale the signal to 1280x720 and then have the HS20 scale again to native resolution of 1366x768, or have only one scaling operation by sending the HS20 a standard 576p signal and let all of the scaling take place in the HS20, it all really depends on which device has the better scaling. Your other two options would be to use the 886 to output a 576i signal, this means the 886 will be carrying out no processing of the signal and instead the signal will be passed digitally pure from the mpeg decoder to the HS20 where it will be deinterlaced and scaled.

    The other thing to consider is the ability of the HS20 to display the correct refresh rate with out any internal conversions going on, for Pal you'll want it to be able to show a 50Hz signal as 50Hz (and possibly 75Hz as this would be 3:3 pullup) and not as say 60Hz. If it can only display at 60Hz then in this case you maybe better off with NTSC as this will not suffer the judder that a Pal signal (50Hz) converted to 60Hz would, but saying that some devices do 50Hz -> 60Hz conversion quite well and so the judder may not be too much of an issue.

    In the end its all trial and error, unless there is another 886 & HS20 user out there with settings they want to share.

    Good luck, hopefully I've helped a little,

    Ryan
     
  4. ailean

    ailean
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I've started to notice differances between PAL and NTSC stuff now on my HS20 (DVI from A11) but as said this can be down to the actual transfer. Certainly I'm now able to spot bad transfers, and some really awefull ones (equally on PAL & NTSC).

    There have been a couple of really good ones too and of these I think the best were PAL, which I'd expect as a very good mastered DVD should be able to shine even brighter with the extra res.

    My collection is probably about 65/35 towards NTSC but I do find I'm more likely to buy new material in PAL as the release dates/content are about the same now and the mastering has been good on *new* stuff.

    Back catalogue stuff I'd probably compare both releases first and stuff like Firefly, Buffy, Angel etc US TV I'll normally get in NTSC as they are a lot cheaper and probably mastered from NTSC anyway. Also Anime is normally NTSC as the better stuff is only available in R1.

    If you don't have a mix like I do then I'd surgest borrowing from friends or buying a couple to see for yourself. There are the other factors like 3:2 pulldown, 4% speed up, progressive scan performance etc but personally these haven't been noticable or annouying enuff to effect my choice.
     
  5. Adam M

    Adam M
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2001
    Messages:
    724
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +19
    Its the 3:2 pull down I was referring to when I assumed progressive pal would not be as good.

    All your replies have been a help though and I am grateful.

    I have a very varied collection but am myself gearing towards pal as my car player is not multiregional and as has been discussed the release dates ar getting far closer.

    with regard to the hdmi, I have to say I haven't played around with the output settings of the 868 in order to optimise the picture.

    From side by side testing I have been unable to find a distinct improvement off hdmi against the previous component video set up.

    More testing is probably the best way of sorting it.
     
  6. docfeelgood

    docfeelgood
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2003
    Messages:
    237
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +1
    Just a note:

    Anyone wanting to build a big collection of SD DVD's should bear in mind that HD-DVD and/or Blu-ray is getting closer....

    ..and you just know that your gonna want all of your favourite movies in hi-def ;)

    Doc
     
  7. rscott4563

    rscott4563
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2003
    Messages:
    1,051
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    38
    Location:
    Cumbria
    Ratings:
    +1
    With regards to 3:2 pulldown, this is only with NTSC and to be totally accurate 3:2 pulldown is the process of creating the 3:2:3:2 sequence of interlaced fields from the original 24fps film material, I suppose the process of going from the 3:2:3:2 interlaced fields to 60Hz progressive would be called 3:2 pullup and if your PJ could support 48Hz then you wouldn't need 3:2 pullup as it would just display the progressive frames in a 2:2 sequence. Check here for a detailed description of it all, if anything NTSC 3:2 or 2:3 or whatever you want to call it, makes progressive scan from NTSC @ 60Hz material more difficult to do than with Pal, where with Pal all that happens is the film is sped up by <4% and then the interlaced field are combined to give a 25fps progressive image and the individual frames are doubled in a 2:2 sequence..

    I hope that makes sense, if I've made any of that up, you'll have to forgive me, my mind is elsewhere at the moment trying to finish a :censored: dissertation...
     
  8. ailean

    ailean
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    Well I already have them all in VHS, LD, non anamorphic SD DVD and anamorphic SD DVD so why not another format?!?!? ;)

    But seriously I did have a brief play with some hidef stuff on the HS20 when I had a PC DVI'd to it and wasn't blown away compared to a good DVD so I won't be rushing to replace my collection too soon. :)
     
  9. mikeaitch

    mikeaitch
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2001
    Messages:
    1,583
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    51
    Location:
    Stoke
    Ratings:
    +55
    Since moving (up?) to DVI, with my HS20 I've noticed that the various outputs from the player look better or worse depending on the disc/region greatly.

    All I want is to put my disc in and get the best PQ

    I guess some would say where's the fun in that??

    Now about to try SDI, as soon as I find out if the Lumagen DVI or whatever will really improve on the internal Sony processing, and whether I should get the DVI versions over the previous non DVI simply for the later processors...

    I don't want to spend £1100 on a marginal improvement...:confused:
     
  10. docfeelgood

    docfeelgood
    Standard Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2003
    Messages:
    237
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Ratings:
    +1
    I'm also sniffing around the Lumagen DVI as an option for my HS20 setup.

    Been speaking with Joe at TMF about this.

    I'd like to try before I buy.... as I would want a noticable improvement before I forked out the best part of a grand on a processor.

    Maybe us HS20 owners who are looking for the best option for our set-ups should keep in touch (any suggestions) as a group and keep each other up to date with what we have tried/demoed/owned/heard.

    I will be trying the Arcam DV79 out as soon as possible and the Lumagen DVI.

    regards
    :)
    Doc
     
  11. Adam M

    Adam M
    Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2001
    Messages:
    724
    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    21
    Location:
    London
    Ratings:
    +19
    may I ask if hidef dvds of the future will require much more expensive hardware?

    Am looking forward to doing some serious testing to find out which set up I prefer, but must confess to not being a good judge of character as far as picture quality is concerned.

    Itend to be drawn into the film or music and forget about picture/sound quality. I suppose I am lucky really.

    I have what I have due to fortunate circumstances. friends in the right places who recommend the right stuff at the right price, and I only have an hs20 because the hs10 failed and they replaced it with a better model. Once I had the two it would be foolish not to use hdmi, but in all honesty it is wasted on me.

    If anyone is near finchley and wants to have a play with the set up in order to work out which component is doing the best scaling, drop me a line.
     
  12. ailean

    ailean
    Guest

    Products Owned:
    0
    Products Wanted:
    0
    Ratings:
    +0
    I'm in a simular boat Adam, I've had a brief play with settings and at least calibrated the display with Avia/DVE but beyond that I don't tend to notice stuff. Really bad transfers look very blury and can be a little blocky on a big screen and really good transfers seem amazingly sharp and I spot details I'd never noticed on a 32" ws TV.

    A close face shot in bright sunlight is one of the things I notice the most, you can make out every detail in there face and it looks very life like.

    Using DVI I *have* to scale at the DVD end as alas I think there is a firmware bug in the A11 when sending SD I/P, which shows up as flashy white horizontal lines. I'm hoping this is fixed in the new fw which I'll get as soon as it's multiregioned.

    I've only got the standard sony component cable so I don't really compare DVI->Component, only use it for non 16:9 enhanced discs.
     

Share This Page

Loading...