Which Tonearm should I keep ?

After six pints of ale I bet directional imaging wasn't the only thing slightly vague!

I don't drink but I'm not that sharp to begin with so just as well! ;0)

Surely with all the distractions in a pub you wouldn't get many directional clues anyway

No doubt these things won't help but that's not the point. The point is that the way sound radiates from live musicians and from typical Hi-Fi loudspeakers is completely different. The multi-directional sound produced by a live band, and the high volume of resulting reflections, create a vast sound-scape.

but if that same performance was played back on your system at home, then you probably would

Yes, because the sound is being produced in a way that bears little resemblance to the way that it was originally. It's like the difference between seeing fireworks in the flesh and watching them on TV!

If you deliberately set-up your system to produce the best sound stage possible it will almost certainly sound less realistic. That is my opinion, I'm running out of ways to say it! ;0)
 
I must be thick or something. I am failing to work out how to post a quote before I comment on it. I want to contribute more but without this ability I can't !! Sorry Mr Pig, I'm not understanding your instructions on the matter. I think I need words of one syllable and plenty of diagrams !!
 
Click on the blue 'Quote' button on the bottom right of my post.

At the top of the box that opens up you will see this: (QUOTE=Mr Pig;13301464) except that I have changed the character '[' to '(' so that the code will not work. This is the code that tells the forum software that it's the beginning of a quote. The section '=Mr Pig;13301464' tells it who the quote is from.

At the bottom is (/QUOTE), exactly the same code but with a '/' in it, see? This marks the end of the quote.

To quote part of a post you just click quote and remove the parts between these two codes that you do not want to quote. To quote manually you just put (quote) and (/quote) before and after the section you wish to appear in a quote box, but don't put '(' or it won't work, you need to use the '[' as seen in the box revealed by the Quote button.
 
Click on the blue 'Quote' button on the bottom right of my post.

Have I managed to do it ? I find this site so very clunky, I'm sorry. Interesting, but clunky.
 
I don't drink but I'm not that sharp to begin with so just as well! ;0)



No doubt these things won't help but that's not the point. The point is that the way sound radiates from live musicians and from typical Hi-Fi loudspeakers is completely different. The multi-directional sound produced by a live band, and the high volume of resulting reflections, create a vast sound-scape.



Yes, because the sound is being produced in a way that bears little resemblance to the way that it was originally. It's like the difference between seeing fireworks in the flesh and watching them on TV!

If you deliberately set-up your system to produce the best sound stage possible it will almost certainly sound less realistic. That is my opinion, I'm running out of ways to say it! ;0)
Yes, i agree that sound radiates differently from loudspeakers and musicians, and i can understand that you want your system to sound as realistic as possible, and any imaging you get is a welcome bonus, and that's fine if that floats your boat. Everything is a compromise, and any recording you play back through your system is just an illusion of an event, and for me i like that illusion to be as realistic as possible, just like you do, but, with three dimensional imaging thrown in aswell! I think we are both after the same thing, maximum enjoyment of our music, but achieving it in different ways.
 
I think we are both after the same thing, maximum enjoyment of our music, but achieving it in different ways.

Very rarely will you hear a Hi-Fi system belonging to someone else and like everything about it. The sound is as personal as the clothes on your back. It's only ever about what you personally like.
 
How can a loudspeaker drive unit that fires a narrow beam of treble at your head hope to recreate the sound made by a cymbal? It can't.

I agree, a cymbal radiates its sound throughout 360 degrees. However, when in an audience, we are only at one of those degrees, so a loudspeaker firing that bit at us is reasonable. What it doesn't take into account, I agree, is the reflected sound from walls, and ceilings for that matter.

Why did Sonab omnidirectional speakers not do better ?

An anecdote now. I got into hifi at 14 years old when I worked for a gentleman farmer called Noel. I cleaned his cars and raked his lawns etc. He was into Jazz and he played his hifi to me. Showing off I suppose, as we all do from time to time. He had Sonabs and swore by them. This was 1970 and I didn't have a discerning ear then. I had an £8 Phillips transistor permanently tuned to 208 Radio Luxembourg in the evenings. I saved my earnings and bought a Garrard SP25 MkIV with a Shure M3D and a Clive Sinclair amplifier. Couldn't afford speakers so had headphones. When I was 16 Noel decided he wanted a change so I bought his Thorens TD150 Mk1 (attrocious arm !!) and his Cambridge P40 (£50 all in, not bad !!). I still didn't have speakers, so bought a Wharfedale Glendale kit and built the cabinets in the woodwork shop in school. I think back now and cringe that the Thorens was just plonked on the sideboard and connected up ! Not a spirit level in sight !! Naivety..... bliss or folly ???

Why did Sonabs not do better ? For those of you unfamiliar, they were an upward firing speaker with one woofer/mid and three or four tweeters arranged around the compass points firing into the air at 45 degrees or so.

Noel "upgraded" his Thorens to one of those new fangled B&O tangential tracking thingys with advanced optical arm to detect where the record and tracks were. When I was 18 I moved away and lost touch with Noel. I bet he regretted that move to the B&O.

I'm now trying to post another quote so I can reply to that too. Can't work that out ! This site is clunky ! Can't be bothered any more tonight, maybe someone will tell me how to respond to multiple quotes in one post ???
 
What it doesn't take into account, I agree, is the reflected sound.

I think this sound is significant. I'm not saying that all domestic loudspeakers are junk, some have quite good dispersal. My point was that good dispersal seems to be not so good for imagery. So deliberately looking for good imagery will be inclined to give you a less room-filling vibrant sound with realistic scale and texture.

Why did Sonab omnidirectional speakers not do better ?

I don't know. Maybe they were poorly marketed, poorly made or just sounded bad. I mean none of the drive units were pointing towards you!

Products that do not conform to the norm tend not to sell well no matter how good they are. People don't leave their comfort zone easily. Traditional boxes are easier to live with, you can fit them in more places, sit stuff on top of them, and they're cheaper to make.

Omni-directional speakers do work though. Shahinian speakers sound pretty good, the big ones anyway. Almost bought a pairs of Arcs years ago. LINK

If you read my post above it tells you how to do the quotes :0)
 
If you toe in your speakers the imagery will improve but the musical coherence will suffer
,

I have never toe'd in my speakers, until my Quads of the moment. I do like width to the presentation, and non-toeing in helped this I feel. Depth is very much less important to me. Nice if it's there, but not the be all and end all !
My Quads are the first rear ported speakers I've had. Quad recommend rear wall clearance of 300mm+. I was at 400mm but there was an awful booming to the bass. I worked out that the energy from the port was reflecting from the rear wall and meeting the fresh output from the port on its way back. I toed in at about 5 degrees and eliminated the boom. The port energy was reflecting from the wall and passing alongside the speaker now.

I'm now wanting to post another reply to a quote I can select. The quote buttons have vanished !! How do I post multiple replies to multiple quotes ??
 
My Quads are the first rear ported speakers I've had.

Ports are often a nuisance, especially rear ones. Have you tried sticking stuff in the ports, like socks?

Another trick is not putting the speakers the same distance from the walls. If the speakers are both the same distance from the rear and side walls they'll both double up on the same bass notes. By moving one a couple of inches further away, sometimes one-inch does it, they'll double up on different notes which reduces the effect of the booming.

How do I post multiple replies to multiple quotes ??

Say you want to quote two parts of my post. Click on the quote button.

Look at what you've got. See the 'quote' codes at the top and bottom? The top one opens the quote box and the bottom one closes it. If you want to quote two parts of my post just edit out everything else, spit the two parts and add two more quote codes at the beginning and end of the two sections. Just copy the codes. You do not need to include the part about my name, just the 'QUOTE' and '/QUOTE' in between the '[' and ']'.

Simples

compare_the_meerkat.jpg
 
My initial question "Which arm should I keep ?" has now been answered. Circumstances have driven me in a certain direction.
When my Xerxes failed, I feared it was the motor burnt out because my friend Richard had recently overhauled the PS, replacing transistors and capacitors, and also cleverly taking the heat producing resistors outside of the cabinet and mounting them on a heatsink on the rear. The unit now runs coolly so should last. That's why I thought it was a motor problem. But no ! The motor feed wires had shorted, blowing a rectifier on the PCB. The motor feeds are very fine to allow sharp movement of the motor against a recoil spring upon switch on. The constant movement over 25 years or so had caused the insulation to break down and short circuit. Richard has replaced the rectifier and rewired the motor re-routing the wires so they are more compliant and less prone to the insulation breaking down with constant flexing.

As the motor is OK and the PS is now perfect, I'll stick with the Xerxes. Like the sound of it anyway ! Don't need to buy a Gyrodec any longer. However, my top plinth on the Xerxes had sagged, not too far, rescuable withh the 2mm bearing shim from Roksan. Made the TT look ungainly from the side because when the platter was level, the outer plinth was at a slope. I found a new top plinth on ebay, but it was cut for a Rega arm. My initial thoughts were that I'd modify it to take my SME 3009. When I examined my existing SME cut top plinth I noticed the captive threads that receive the four SME mounting bolts. This made me nervous of converting my new top plinth. So, I found a Roksan Tabriz (Rega geometry) tone arm at a reasonable price and bought it. I have since found an intelligent counterweight for the Tabriz too. I was disappointed as it watched University Challenge with me and didn't get one answer correct !!!
I picked my TT up from Richard on Sunday and it is spinning beautifully. The platter is parallel to everything else so looks great.
My den is being decorated at the moment so hifi is dismantled. I'm off work next week so wiil finish the decorating and set everything up again. I cannot wait !!
Further influencing factors include the fact that I've sold my old SME cut top plinth and my SME 3009 tonearm.
All reports show the Tabriz to be a very accomplished arm so should be OK. If I really can't live with it, then my Xerxes with unsagged plinth, perfect power supply and matching Roksan arm is probably a very saleable unit.
May I take this opportunity to thank all contributors to this thread, particularly Mr Pig who has been extremely helpful and made some very thought provoking posts. Please continue to contribute and keep it going if you wish.
I shall post a further report when everything is up and running again.
 
Thank you for the University Challenge joke, liked that ;0)

If you don't like the Tabriz you could try a Rega arm or a Roksan Nima. The Nima is supposed to be very good. I've never heard it but a lot of people rate it very highly.
 
Had an RB300 before on my Syncro with an Ortofon MC 10 Super. It was fine, did it's job well. No experience of unipivot, so nervous, also don't like the plastic look of the Nima. I'll wait and see how the Tabriz sounds. By the way, I solved the booming of the speakers to my satisfaction without either socks or assymmetry !!!
 
Unipivots are ok, like everything they just take getting used to. They wobble about when you cue them but settle down when you put them on the record.
 
Impatience got the better of me today. I set the Xerxes up today with the Tabriz arm and intelligent counterweight. I was mistaken in my earlier thoughts, the counterweight is heavy enough (by some margin) to balance the Ortofon MC25FL at 2 grammes. Azimuth is good, difficult on a Xerxes with fixed head arm. I was careful not to tighten the bearing mounting bolts too much. This is how azimuth is adjusted, pulling the bearing in one way or another by the tightening of the mounting bolts. Very drawn out and fiddly trial and error process !! Azimuth confirmed by a mirror. VTA is set best I can by eye.
I am playing through a Creek MC pre amp and Little Dot IV headphone amp into Sennheiser HD595s.
The table the TT is sat on is not as rigid as my normal rack, but level. Shouldn't be a problem with headphones as no acoustic feedback.
I played sides one of Crime of the Century (Supertramp), Graceland (Paul Simon) and 24 Carrots (Al Stewart).
My initial impression was that of an overblown bass. I soon got used to it because it was tuneful. I put this down to the fact that I have been using CDs for the last 4 or 5 weeks from a Cambridge Audio Azur 640C. Same Little Dot and headphones. I'm not sure whether the difference is due to the mediocrity of the CD player or the mediocrity of the CDs themselves ? Maybe a combination of both ? How can CDs differ so much ? I thought digital was a stream of ones and zeros. 110001110111011101 ! How can you change the quality of that ?
My experimentation with my newly energised Xerxes has proved interesting tonight. Nothing will be conclusive until everything set up in a rigid, spiked, level rack feeding my Quad speakers. I'll report on that at the end of next week if anyone's interested.
 
I did promise (threaten !!) to report back when everything was re-installed following the decorating. Anyway, put everything back in place today. You know how it is ; adjusting spikes, careful they don't turn when you tighten the locking nut, measuring from the rear wall, keeping cables as tidy as possible so SWMBO doesn't have a go, cleaning everything before putting it all back and then hoping to God that you haven't been using a level with a faulty bubble !!

To recap, there have been too many changes here for any change in sound to be solely attributable to my choice of arm. I didn't choose to be honest, circumstances chose for me. The changes include a new (sag-free) top plinth for my Xerxes, a newly repaired PS for the Xerxes with the motor rewired, a Creek OBH-9 MC pre-amp (the one with the brick PS, not the wall-wart), a Roksan Tabriz tonearm and the Intelligent Counterweight for that arm. Same cartridge, Ortofon MC25FL.

Well, switch-on at 8 o'clock tonight. I have to say at this point that it is difficult to remember the sound I had before. However, there were some immediate differences from the previous SME set-up. The intro groove and between track grooves were particularly silent, never heard that before (well there was nothing to hear !!). I always had difficulty with sibillance (is that spelt correctly ?) with the SME. I'd experiment with VTA and tracking force to no avail. I've tracked the Tabriz at 2.1 grammes, as before on the SME. Sibillance has gone !

I believe that the improvement in those two areas are probably due to the rigidity of the Tabriz. The SME had a detachable headshell and the arm is held together with flexible rubber grommets too. Don't misunderstand me, the SME was great and served me well for many years. I've only been listening to this arrangement for a couple of hours. The changes I report are significant, but there are other changes that may not be so good in the long term. Only time will tell. I notice the Tabriz to be faster than the SME, as if it's saying "listen to me, hear what I'm doing for you." The SME was always a steady performer but didn't rock any boats. It's too early to tell how I'll settle with the new set up. Initial feelings are good though.
 
Thanks for reporting back and I'm glad things are moving forward. I've never heard that SME arm but 'worthy but dull' covers what I heard about it. The Xerxes is a lean, quick sounding turntable so it's no surprise you're finding the Roxan combo fast sounding. I prefer fast sounding kit myself, always have.
 

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