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Which sub ??? (HELP!!) (REL Q400E V SVS)

Discussion in 'Subwoofers' started by Sessen Ryu, May 15, 2002.

  1. Sessen Ryu

    Sessen Ryu
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    Help.

    I'm currently in the process of buying a new HF 5.1 system. So far I have got my hands on:

    Denon 3802AVR
    Ruark Prologue one fronts
    Ruark Dialoge one centre
    Ruark Epilogue rears
    Panasonic TX36PF10

    What I am researching now is the sub. I want depth, clarity, depth, slam, volume, depth and depth.

    My budget is £800 max - and at the moment I have narrowed my search down to these:

    - REL Q400E
    - SVS 16-46PCi (http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pci_16-46.htm)

    Any comments on any of these subs - all any others in the price range that I should consider would be greatly appreciated.

    I was thinking of traveling to Maidstone to audition a VIBE (www.v-i-b-e.com)(nearest dealer to me) (as they actually do a 15" driver within my price range, and I'm a great believer in "size matters" when it comes to sub bass) but have heard that they sound more like OTT car audio, and are a bit boomy...


    (I'm going to be listening to the REL tomorrow.... but cannot hear the SVS before I buy as it'll have to be imported from the US. The reason I am considering one of those is the sheer weight of glowing reviews I have read on certain AV forum regarding SV Subs)
     
  2. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Hi

    I'd go with SVS.

    How about going for a CS+ (or maybe the Ultra) and sort the amplification out this end?
    Would your budget stretch to that?

    Don't forget to add on the 'customs import tax fee thing' which I think will be about 20% including the price of the shipping. Some one correct me if I'm wrong.

    Cheers
    Boris
     
  3. Sessen Ryu

    Sessen Ryu
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    I would rather go for the PC to keep cost down.

    From the reviews I have read, I would probably go with SVS - but the main thing putting me off is if anything went wrong with the sub, shipping the tube across the pond would be a major pain.


    Have you heard any SVS?

    Have you heard the RELQ400E?


    May I ask why you would go with SVS?
     
  4. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Their design philosophy.

    Good driver.
    Large enclosure.
    No EQ.
    Naturally flat.

    I'm a DIY man myself, but if was going to buy a commercial offering it probably would be SVS.

    I'll expand more tomorrow if you like.

    Cheers
    Boris
     
  5. Sessen Ryu

    Sessen Ryu
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    Thanks for your comments - Yes, I look forward to your reply tomorrow...


    I just wish that there was an "SVS equivilant" over here in the UK! :)
     
  6. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Hi

    There's not much more to say really.
    But there's no black magic involved in sub design.

    Deep bass, enclosure size and efficiency are all interlinked. You can choose two but then the third will be dictated to you. This is called Hoffman's Iron Law. So, if you want a small sealed enclosure (say 1-2 cubic feet) and deep bass (20Hz at a decent SPL), efficiency suffers.
    Massive power is required for the EQ needed for the lowest octaves and then you'll still be struggling. The driver must be able to handle the power and have a very long throw (Xmax) to move the air. Then you'll be having thermal power compression problems. As you pump more power into the driver output stops increasing due to voice coil heating.
    This also applies to vented design but then there are also other problems. If you want to tune a small enclosure low the port gets too long to fit into the enclosure. Passive radiators get around this but adds to the cost and transient response (tightness) suffers slightly.


    The SVS subs are a vented design and use the optimum enclosure size for the driver and required tuning frequency for each particular model to yield a maximally flat response (SBB4 alignment, I think) therefore no EQ is required thus not robbing the amp of any power.

    The driver quality is exceptional. Look at that Ultra driver!

    The cylinder is advantageous as it is inherently strong requiring no bracing. The large enclosure size required is obtained in the vertical plane, giving a small footprint.


    The main selling point however is the massive price/performance ratio.
    Yeah it is such a shame we don't have a UK/European dealer or an equivalent sub.

    However we can get the Servo-15 from Richer Sounds for £500. This IMO is the next best thing (DIY aside).

    The original 20-39 was compared to the Servo-15 performance wise.
    The current 20-39 with the latest driver has a supposedly slight edge
    The Ultra has twice the performance down low of a 20-39.
    The CS+ has about 70-80% of the Ultras performance.

    Cheers
    Boris
     
  7. JSW

    JSW
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  8. Bonesy

    Bonesy
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    FYI, I have an ex-demo Vibe beta, normally £500, but got it for £240.

    Nice quality build, and I trust they know what they are doing, also good customer service, however -

    I've not been able to tune/site it properly yet, it does keep sounding boomy.:(
     
  9. Ramius

    Ramius
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    Hi

    Ultra drivers are only available to Ultra owners.

    However, there are plenty of other high (and higher) performance drivers available to the DIY-er.

    Cheers
    Boris
     
  10. Sessen Ryu

    Sessen Ryu
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    Thanks Boris - I found your comments very helpful.

    I demo'ed a RELQ400E yesterday with a TagMclaren DVD, AVR & amp - with Ruark Prologue Two 5.0 speakers.

    The REL sounded dis-jointed with the rest of the system. The low frequencies were great - but so much louder than the high (bass) frequencies. It didn't sound right - and didn't integrate at all well with the rest of the kit. The sub was too slow (as I say - when the source demanded low freguencies it was fantastic - the REL displayed a very powerful hum and didn't seem to be even trying) - but higher up the Hz range and you could hardly hear it - not a lot of punch - plenty of depth, but not enough slam.

    I want to be able to hear all the low frequencies which I am ment to be able to hear on a disc - which is why i'm looking in the 12" driver direction - but I want a sub which is going to integrate seemlessly with the rest of my system - it seems as though there's a trade-off from having depth in terms of slam

    Yesterday's demo was an expensive system, and for the money it was hardly impressive. Which leaves me worried about spending a lot of money for a disapointing reward.

    The SVS sounds great - but what is putting me off is the fact that I cannot 'try before I buy'. If I'm not happy with it - yes I can return it - but it is me who will be out of pocket with shipping and duty charges etc....

    I just don't know what to do.......... :-( !
     
  11. Jase

    Jase
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    Sounds to me like the demo equipment may have been setup wrongly, Rels are one of the most flexible when it comes to integrating with the rest of the system. A Q400 should have plenty of slam as well as depth.

    Something doesnt seem right to me:confused: Might be a case of winding up the sub level to impress the punter with mega bass. Do you know how they had it setup with regards to the speaker configuration etc??
     
  12. Sessen Ryu

    Sessen Ryu
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    Well, the bloke left me for over an hour on my own in the demo room with the kit all set up for me to just play.

    I know the front L & R were set to large - and i was ajusting the volume and the slam & depth dials in an attempt to make things better. The room had sound proofing material half way up the wall all the way round, and the guy in the shop was saying that they often have problems with the room because it is "too dead". Also, my room is 12x12 - so I am worried that the sub maybe too big for the room anyhow...???
     
  13. Jase

    Jase
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    You could always ask them if they´ll let you do a home demo, then you´ll know if suits you room or not.

    When you say you were adjusting the Slam & Depth dials were you referring to the High & Low level Crossovers as the Q400 doesnt have Slam or Depth modes??:confused:

    The Rels are very flexible in the fact you can connect them via both High & Low level at the same time, enabling you to get the most from both movies & music.

    Anyway, if you can get a home demo then you´ll have time to play around. I think the Q400 will be fine in your room.

    Cheers
     
  14. Sessen Ryu

    Sessen Ryu
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    I had to reach over the sofa and could just about see the dials which i was messing around with (!)

    I was ajusting the rolloff (which didn't seem to make an awful lot of difference)

    I was ajusting the volume.

    And what I thought was the slam and depth mode was a dial with options 1, 2, 3 & 4 on it. I presumed that this was the slam and depth dial with four varying degrees...... ??

    The guy in the shop said that the Q400 was for big rooms - so you think it will be okay in a 12x12 room then? And yes you're right - a home demonstration has got to be the safest option.

    Cheers
    Phil
     
  15. Jase

    Jase
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    The mode switch on Rels can be used to either use the Subs crossover (mode 1), ignore it (mode 2) and modes 3 & 4 are the same but with the phase reversed.

    The rolloff would have no effect if set to mode 2 or 4 and if the sub was connected via the low level (phono) input.

    If they´ll do a home demo, connect it via both the low & high level inputs, set all your speakers to small and to either mode 2 or 4 (as it ignores the crossover at the low level input). This will give you the best for movies.

    For music (on your Denon in DIRECT mode) the amp passes a full range signal to the Front Left & Right speakers. This is where the High Level connection comes in and you would adjust the subs crossover to blend with your front speakers.

    All you need to is set the volume for each input (they both have their own volume controls).

    I still think the Q400 will fine in your room, better to have a sub with plenty of power etc than one that struggles.

    Hope this helps you .

    cheers
     
  16. Sessen Ryu

    Sessen Ryu
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    ahhhh - that explains a few things!

    yes it does help - thankyou very much
     
  17. Jase

    Jase
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    No problem.:)
     
  18. Sessen Ryu

    Sessen Ryu
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    I've decided to go with SVS. - I went for a 20-39PCi........


    Bonesy - how are you getting on with your VIBE? have you managed to tame it's boom yet???
     

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