Which power amp to add to Denon avr-x4500h With Klipsch for Atmos 7.2.4

[Rambles]

13 speakers?

Hi. 7 + 2 + 4 = 13 speakers.

Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - 250W - sensitivity specified as 100db / measured as 93db
Surround - Klipsch RP 8000 - 150W sensitivity specified as 98db / measured as 92db
Rear Surround - Kilpsch RP 8000 - 150W sensitivity specified as 98db / measured as 92db
Centre - RC 64 III - 200 W - sensitivity specified as 99db / measured as ???
Atmos - 4 X Klipsch RP 600M - 100W sensitivity specified as 96db / measured as 89db

I read that Audioholics believe that Klipsch rate the sensitivity as real world, in room response, whereas they are measured for their anechoic response.

Subs are powered independently.

So, here are the figures, they are not intended to be a definitive reason to buy or not buy a power amp, but hopefully they are interesting to you, and anyone else reading the thread.

These are not taking into effect the room response, which is estimated to add on 6db, depending on the size of the room and the speaker placements within that room. It does take into account that each additional speaker that is added increases the SPL by 3db. And I am using an average listening distance of 3 metres / 10 feet.

100db SPL
89db sensitivity - 10 watts
92db sensitivity - 5 watts
93db sensitivity - 4 watts
99db sensitivity - 1 watt

105db SPL (Reference)
89db sensitivity - 29 watts
92db sensitivity - 15 watts
93db sensitivity - 12 watts
99db sensitivity - 3 watts

106db SPL
89db sensitivity - 37 watts
92db sensitivity - 20 watts
93db sensitivity - 15 watts
99db sensitivity - 4 watts

109db SPL
89db sensitivity - 74 watts
92db sensitivity - 40 watts
93db sensitivity - 30 watts
99db sensitivity - 8 watts

For balance - if there were 6 speakers, at a sensitivity of 87db, they would need 100 watts each to make a total SPL of 105db from a 3 metre listening distance.

 

[Christian1975]

Hi,
You may find this website interesting, they lab test AVRs driving various number of channels simultaneously and quote a different THD levels too. Whilst it does not list every AV amp or receiver (of course), if you look at each units power consumption versus simultaneous output and the units' weights that makes for further interest (IMO).
This link takes you straight to an old Denon:

Denon AVR-4310CI A/V Receiver HT Labs Measures

HT Labs Measures Five channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 113.8 watts 1% distortion at 131.0 watts Seven channels driven continuously into 8-ohm loads: 0.1% distortion at 104.6 watts 1% distortion at 116.6 watts Analog frequency response in Pure Direct mode: –0.51...

www.soundandvision.com

Cheers.

 

[Isco 3]

Adding a power amp would be an improvement, indeed. Go for it.
A friend of mine added a Krell 3-channel power amp on his Denon, and he has a Klipsch system too. He was having a hiss coming out the speakers at first though.

ps: The Krell was mine, and I was having no hiss via XLR to 93db sensitive speakers. In his system via RCA onto the Klipsch was quite problematic! Eventually, he ended up modifying the Krell to make it work. Go figure...

 

[rccarguy]

That hiss is to do with amp gain perhaps krell has higher gain than demons own internal amps.

Need to match gain otherwise hiss is a issue with more sensitive speakers

 

[dts197]

Hi. 7 + 2 + 4 = 13 speakers.

Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - 250W - sensitivity specified as 100db / measured as 93db
Surround - Klipsch RP 8000 - 150W sensitivity specified as 98db / measured as 92db
Rear Surround - Kilpsch RP 8000 - 150W sensitivity specified as 98db / measured as 92db
Centre - RC 64 III - 200 W - sensitivity specified as 99db / measured as ???
Atmos - 4 X Klipsch RP 600M - 100W sensitivity specified as 96db / measured as 89db

I read that Audioholics believe that Klipsch rate the sensitivity as real world, in room response, whereas they are measured for their anechoic response.

Subs are powered independently.

So, here are the figures, they are not intended to be a definitive reason to buy or not buy a power amp, but hopefully they are interesting to you, and anyone else reading the thread.

These are not taking into effect the room response, which is estimated to add on 6db, depending on the size of the room and the speaker placements within that room. It does take into account that each additional speaker that is added increases the SPL by 3db. And I am using an average listening distance of 3 metres / 10 feet.

100db SPL
89db sensitivity - 10 watts
92db sensitivity - 5 watts
93db sensitivity - 4 watts
99db sensitivity - 1 watt

105db SPL (Reference)
89db sensitivity - 29 watts
92db sensitivity - 15 watts
93db sensitivity - 12 watts
99db sensitivity - 3 watts

106db SPL
89db sensitivity - 37 watts
92db sensitivity - 20 watts
93db sensitivity - 15 watts
99db sensitivity - 4 watts

109db SPL
89db sensitivity - 74 watts
92db sensitivity - 40 watts
93db sensitivity - 30 watts
99db sensitivity - 8 watts

For balance - if there were 6 speakers, at a sensitivity of 87db, they would need 100 watts each to make a total SPL of 105db from a 3 metre listening distance.

If one speaker with a sensitivity of 89db needs 29w to reach reference, how come the big jump up to 100w for 6 to reach it at 87db sensitivity?

Trying to make sense of all this as I'll be getting a PA this year (need at least a 2ch for extra speakers) but it's all just going over my head.

 

[Rambles]

If one speaker with a sensitivity of 89db needs 29w to reach reference, how come the big jump up to 100w for 6 to reach it at 87db sensitivity?

Trying to make sense of all this as I'll be getting a PA this year (need at least a 2ch for extra speakers) but it's all just going over my head.

That one speaker of 89db sensitivity which needs 29 watts to reach reference is in a system of a total of 13 speakers (7.2.4), all playing at the same time, for those dynamic peaks to hit reference.

If the system only has 6 speakers (5.1) more watts are needed to get each speaker in that system to play a bit louder so the overall SPL hits 105db.

Adding one more speaker adds 3db to the overall SPL.

 

[dts197]

That one speaker of 89db sensitivity which needs 29 watts to reach reference is in a system of a total of 13 speakers (7.2.4), all playing at the same time, for those dynamic peaks to hit reference.

If the system only has 6 speakers (5.1) more watts are needed to get each speaker in that system to play a bit louder so the overall SPL hits 105db.

Adding one more speaker adds 3db to the overall SPL.

That makes sense, thanks. Not always a case of more speakers needing tons more power then.

 

[Rambles]

That makes sense, thanks. Not always a case of more speakers needing tons more power then.

Not always. But it does depend on the speaker(s) and on how capable the AVR is at powering multiple speakers simultaneously.

 

[rccarguy]

That makes sense, thanks. Not always a case of more speakers needing tons more power then.

More speakers connected to the avr means less power to each speaker due to avr poor amp or PSU stages...
Not like dedicated power amp that is still rated at 200w all xhanns driven

 

[tigertiger12]

Hi. 7 + 2 + 4 = 13 speakers.

Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - 250W - sensitivity specified as 100db / measured as 93db
Surround - Klipsch RP 8000 - 150W sensitivity specified as 98db / measured as 92db
Rear Surround - Kilpsch RP 8000 - 150W sensitivity specified as 98db / measured as 92db
Centre - RC 64 III - 200 W - sensitivity specified as 99db / measured as ???
Atmos - 4 X Klipsch RP 600M - 100W sensitivity specified as 96db / measured as 89db

I read that Audioholics believe that Klipsch rate the sensitivity as real world, in room response, whereas they are measured for their anechoic response.

Subs are powered independently.

So, here are the figures, they are not intended to be a definitive reason to buy or not buy a power amp, but hopefully they are interesting to you, and anyone else reading the thread.

These are not taking into effect the room response, which is estimated to add on 6db, depending on the size of the room and the speaker placements within that room. It does take into account that each additional speaker that is added increases the SPL by 3db. And I am using an average listening distance of 3 metres / 10 feet.

100db SPL
89db sensitivity - 10 watts
92db sensitivity - 5 watts
93db sensitivity - 4 watts
99db sensitivity - 1 watt

105db SPL (Reference)
89db sensitivity - 29 watts
92db sensitivity - 15 watts
93db sensitivity - 12 watts
99db sensitivity - 3 watts

106db SPL
89db sensitivity - 37 watts
92db sensitivity - 20 watts
93db sensitivity - 15 watts
99db sensitivity - 4 watts

109db SPL
89db sensitivity - 74 watts
92db sensitivity - 40 watts
93db sensitivity - 30 watts
99db sensitivity - 8 watts

For balance - if there were 6 speakers, at a sensitivity of 87db, they would need 100 watts each to make a total SPL of 105db from a 3 metre listening distance.

my mistake 13 speakers is right to work out total db rating.

But this is the issue, it's too much maths for the average person to work out and is not accurate in any case due to some variables. Then also just a 3db increase doubles the power and the denon is roughly rated at 55w per channel playing 9 channels. This seems to then be understandable why someone with even a 100w power amp would notice a difference is sound quality, less distortion at higher volumes.

Also you are making the figures match your theory, if your figures are low just a 3db increase doubles the power required. So a small unintentional error could make your workings wrong. If I could work out the db ratings for the speakers I have it would be better. I would also show your workings again adding at least 3db for some headroom.

However, thanks for the time you have taken.

 

[Isco 3]

I am not sure there is a film that you get 105db from each individual speaker simultaneously.

 

[Rambles]

However, thanks for the time you have taken.

No problem, it's all interesting stuff

the denon is roughly rated at 55w per channel playing 9 channels. This seems to then be understandable why someone with even a 100w power amp would notice a difference is sound quality, less distortion at higher volumes.

Not necessarily. If the speakers are only demanding 29 watts at peaks, then it makes no difference if the amp is capable of 55 watts or 100 watts.

So a small unintentional error could make your workings wrong. If I could work out the db ratings for the speakers I have it would be better. I would also show your workings again adding at least 3db for some headroom.

I linked to the calculator in an earlier posts, but I am using this one, it's pretty easy to play around with the figures and see for yourself how much difference little changes make.

Peak SPL Calculator

And the sensitivity ratings that I used were specifically for your speakers using measurements from bench tests that I found online.

Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - 250W - sensitivity specified as 100db / measured as 93db
Surround - Klipsch RP 8000 - 150W sensitivity specified as 98db / measured as 92db
Rear Surround - Kilpsch RP 8000 - 150W sensitivity specified as 98db / measured as 92db
Centre - RC 64 III - 200 W - sensitivity specified as 99db / measured as ???
Atmos - 4 X Klipsch RP 600M - 100W sensitivity specified as 96db / measured as 89db

In terms of 3db headroom, with reference being at 105db, the 109db figures would have 4db headroom.

 

[tigertiger12]

I am thinking of the Emotiva custom XPA gen 3 (seven-7-0 config)
or the 5 or 9 channel XPA gen 3.

The Nord custom amp Nord One MP NC252 which is 8 channel at 200w at 8ohms.
possibly the custom config with 4 X 500w and 4 x 250 watts, as the price difference between the 2 nords is not that much

Then the Anthem MCA 525 Gen2 which is 225w into 8ohms but no specs as of yet.
This being the most expensive and only 5 channel and £3500. but if this amp is much better than the nord or emotiva then i'd rather get this with a view of getting the mrs another job instead of doing silly things like sleeping, then maybe get another anthem later on and take the power away from the denon and use these power amps but only if the first one gives a good improvement in sound. then further down I could use the denon in another room and replace it with a pre amp & processor when the wife makes the money!!!! She has just mentioned she hasn't seen this part of back to the future that's on and she needs to watch them all again from the beginning and I need to turn the subs up and put it on really loud. I have agreed, so will start to look for a job for her as i cannot turn the subs up and can only purchase more, the amps will help with less distortion at louder volumes. lol, she's right though. I've offered to replace her car so she's putty at the moment, may as well go too far now while I can, so she needs another job to buy another car, though after buying the amps we may not be able to afford a car, but I'll cross that bridge later!!!!! lol

Would be grateful for opinions on the differences on these amps, if the anthem is considerably better than the emotiva and nord. Thank you for the many replies, recommendations and pm's. This has indeed been a big help... well all except one person who shall remain nameless but will respond here very soon, if not on pm!!! Yes, i'm feeling especially naughty today however, I am also joking very much and just thought i'd add a bit of light heartedness to the thread, i'm sure a few of you may have a chuckle which is only why i said this. I also hope 'he' see's the funny side too, if not my side job is in serious jeopardy. His advice would probably be good if he remains on topic, otherwise i'm not sure if the damage to my eyes while reading his comments will be repairable!

I was also wondering if there was another centre channel that is better than the klipsch rc64 iii, though I wouldn't want to mix the speakers, i'm just wondering and maybe I could get one and demo it for comparison and if there is a better one at around £1500 or less, i may change it! lol.

 

[tigertiger12]

I am not sure there is a film that you get 105db from each individual speaker simultaneously.

I believe 105db would be the total, 105db from all speakers at the same time may be a little bit dangerous! Trying this may require people to use a mega phone to communicate with you! lol

 

[rccarguy]

Nords require fair amount of voltage though aren't they 2v+?

 

[Rambles]

@tigertiger12 just reading your last couple of posts, is the issue that you don't have enough bass in your room?

 

[Rock Danger]

@tigertiger12 If you're looking an Anthem, I'll be selling my Statement A5 in the hopefully next few months as well as a couple of Lyndorf SDA 2400 to make way for Lyngdorf's MXA 8ch amps.

Anthem blurb here:

Anthem® | A5 | Specifications

www.anthemav.com

Regarding who makes a better power amp between Anthem and Nord, it would depend on the model but both are better than Emotiva, which is a more VFM product.

 

[tigertiger12]

@tigertiger12 just reading your last couple of posts, is the issue that you don't have enough bass in your room?

Ha, no. I have a pb4000 & sb4000 there is plenty of bass, just being silly i suppose, always wanting more bass! If i had it my way I'd have 12 subs and a minx MIN 22!
so 1 centre channel and 12 subs. lol, this is a joke so don't start saying this is a bad idea!

 

[tigertiger12]

@tigertiger12 If you're looking an Anthem, I'll be selling my Statement A5 in the hopefully next few months as well as a couple of Lyndorf SDA 2400 to make way for Lyngdorf's MXA 8ch amps.

Anthem blurb here:

Anthem® | A5 | Specifications

www.anthemav.com

Regarding who makes a better power amp between Anthem and Nord, it would depend on the model but both are better than Emotiva, which is a more VFM product.

Thanks for the information, I really appreciate it as it is invaluable to me.

Others have said the same about emotiva also.
Nord is a new name to me but Anthem is well known and i am liking the anthems.

I'm probably gonna take some time before I buy one and i'd rather buy new, just in case it
doesn't improve the quality of my setup but from what it seems, it will, but then i can repack it and sell it with only a small loss. I also don't wish to mess you about time wise as i really dont know when I will make my purchase. I'm still waiting for some speakers. However, I'm really grateful for the offer.

I have heard of Lyngdorf also, they are supposed to be very good and very expensive also!
How much is the 8 channel lyngdorf setting you back??
Am very jealous your getting an 8 channel lyngdorf!!!
I'm sure you will love it.
I do think I need to raise my budget.

 

[rccarguy]

Thanks for the information, I really appreciate it as it is invaluable to me.

Others have said the same about emotiva also.
Nord is a new name to me but Anthem is well known and i am liking the anthems.

I'm probably gonna take some time before I buy one and i'd rather buy new, just in case it
doesn't improve the quality of my setup but from what it seems, it will, but then i can repack it and sell it with only a small loss. I also don't wish to mess you about time wise as i really dont know when I will make my purchase. I'm still waiting for some speakers. However, I'm really grateful for the offer.

I have heard of Lyngdorf also, they are supposed to be very good and very expensive also!
How much is the 8 channel lyngdorf setting you back??
Am very jealous your getting an 8 channel lyngdorf!!!
I'm sure you will love it.
I do think I need to raise my budget.

You may want that try a different amplifier topology, class ab, class h, class d and others

 

[michael1189]

The hypex based amps score very well on audiosciencereview.

 

[tigertiger12]

The hypex based amps score very well on audiosciencereview.

Indeed many people say this.
At the moment i'm thinking to wait for the Lyngdorf MXA-8400. It's £7k but Lyngdorf have excellent reviews. This way I don't have to think about upgrading it, maybe ever and if I don't hear any improvement in sound quality I'll be able to sell it easy.
It will take time before I get the Lyngdorf but I will report back how it is.

Thank you for your advice. Much appreciated.

 

[rccarguy]

Indeed many people say this.
At the moment i'm thinking to wait for the Lyngdorf MXA-8400. It's £7k but Lyngdorf have excellent reviews. This way I don't have to think about upgrading it, maybe ever and if I don't hear any improvement in sound quality I'll be able to sell it easy.
It will take time before I get the Lyngdorf but I will report back how it is.

Thank you for your advice. Much appreciated.

Check Denon pre out and power amp voltage compatibility

Denon AVR-X4700 AVR Review (Updated)

This is a second review of the Denon AVR-X4700 AVR. It was kindly purchased by a member and drop shipped to me. It costs US $1,700 from Amazon including free shipping. I will explain the reason for the revision in a bit. For now, I will cut and paste some of the information from the first...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[rccarguy]

Denon doesn't provide enough voltage to get full power from hyperx amps, it's about 1v short.

 

[Jamrobin]

So I can offer actual experience with almost the same dilemma.
I too have the X4500h and was running a Behringer A500 for the front L&R but really didn't like it...
Researched all the same amplifiers you are looking at.
Bought the Monolith x7... I was going to get the x3 or x5 but all the way up to the x7 it's 200wpc all channels driven into 8 ohms... and the price per channel is lower and lower the more you get. Very happy with the purchase! It's a heavy, strong AB amplifier and sounded great on day one... Either its burned in or my ears have (not going to enter the debate but I expect it is both) over the past 2 weeks and it sounds so very much better than either the Behringer or the Denon's channels.
Now I am on the hunt for a 4 channel for the elevations. I expect I will get the Starke AD4.320 because the choices in a 150-250wpc amp are limited (I want to match the output potential of the monolith)

My system (much different speakers!) is
Denon X4500h
Monolith x7
Paradigm Studio 200 (v1) L&R
Paradigm Studio CC 450 (v1) C
Paradigm Studio ADP 450 (v1) Surrounds
Paradigm Studio 20 (v2) Rears
SVS Prime Elevation Height (front and rear L&R)
SVS SB 2000 Pro subs x 2

Yes indeed my lower 7 speakers are older than many of the people reading this LOL!
I began building and adding to my systems (there's 3 in my place) with those Paradigm Reference speakers and they are voiced beautifully. Tone match across all 7 (9 actually because I have Studio 60s anchoring the system in my home office) is about as perfect as the human ear can hear, and I have a sentimental attachment LOL.