Which power amp to add to Denon avr-x4500h With Klipsch for Atmos 7.2.4

[Escobar01]

Denon/ Marantz group describe power into 6 Ohms speakers loaded, that make it look impressive. Proper settings might be an issue, if all speakers are set to large for instance the amplifier get it hard to handle, even changing the center speaker settings to small could make significant difference,worth trying btw.Also active subs should be used with own on board amplifiers.I have tested several avrs Denon,Marantz,Arcam and Yamaha and stick to the last one.Denon gets hot but still within the parameters but it's not what I wanted,it should have space to breathe and cool down,I have no heat related issues with my Yamaha.As an author mentioned ,power amp is an option ,but stereo amp also give an opportunity to run 7.2.4 Atmos setup.
Another important details are the cables,room size,speaker placement etc.
As mentioned previously, I run Yamaha/Apollon combo on 7.1.4 setup for movies, for music I have additional valve amplifier for two front channels.Well it must be heard to fully justify this setup,for my ears I have never ,ever heard an Atmos like that before.My current setup is
Y/A combo plus KR 350i valve amp KR Audio VA350 Integrated Amplifier
speakers ,front L/R horn loaded Aria2 mk3

Aria II MK 2 – hORNS

horns.pl

center Dali LCR Rubicon
6 x Dali Phantom s80 ,4 on the ceiling,2 on walls
2x B&W 707 on rear surrounds ,this gonna be changed for Dali shortly to match the rest sonically.
All goes on medium range ,thick pure copper cables.
So Yamaha works mainly as a processor ,feeding itself only 3 channels, also Phono stage is in use with my Rega P2 deck for vinyl .It took me 3 years of planning ,saving etc but definitely worth it.

 

[Escobar01]

up

 

[60percentsound]

If anyone else wishes to comment please feel free.
you can PM if you wish as others have done so.
Thanks for all the good advice and recommendations.

Hi. I would like to share my experience of adding power amps. My SR7012 has very similar power rating as your Denon. I was running a cheap power amp to make up the 11 channels to start with. Then the upgrade illness kicked in !! I changed the cheap power amp for a Emotiva A-300 to power the front L&R which was a small improvement, I then added 2 more....that was the game changer !!
All I can say is the power, scale and headroom I have gained is amazing. Even the channels still being driven by the Marantz (centre and heights) have benefitted. Yes it cost me 3x £549 pounds but it was worth it to me. After installing the Emotiva's I ran Audyssey again then level matched the speakers with a Sound Level Meter, which takes Atmos to another level !!
So, adding power amps has definitely worked for me. I hope that helps.

 

[rccarguy]

Denon/ Marantz group describe power into 6 Ohms speakers loaded, that make it look impressive. Proper settings might be an issue, if all speakers are set to large for instance the amplifier get it hard to handle, even changing the center speaker settings to small could make significant difference,worth trying btw.Also active subs should be used with own on board amplifiers.I have tested several avrs Denon,Marantz,Arcam and Yamaha and stick to the last one.Denon gets hot but still within the parameters but it's not what I wanted,it should have space to breathe and cool down,I have no heat related issues with my Yamaha.As an author mentioned ,power amp is an option ,but stereo amp also give an opportunity to run 7.2.4 Atmos setup.
Another important details are the cables,room size,speaker placement etc.
As mentioned previously, I run Yamaha/Apollon combo on 7.1.4 setup for movies, for music I have additional valve amplifier for two front channels.Well it must be heard to fully justify this setup,for my ears I have never ,ever heard an Atmos like that before.My current setup is
Y/A combo plus KR 350i valve amp KR Audio VA350 Integrated Amplifier
speakers ,front L/R horn loaded Aria2 mk3

Aria II MK 2 – hORNS

horns.pl

center Dali LCR Rubicon
6 x Dali Phantom s80 ,4 on the ceiling,2 on walls
2x B&W 707 on rear surrounds ,this gonna be changed for Dali shortly to match the rest sonically.
All goes on medium range ,thick pure copper cables.
So Yamaha works mainly as a processor ,feeding itself only 3 channels, also Phono stage is in use with my Rega P2 deck for vinyl .It took me 3 years of planning ,saving etc but definitely worth it.

You really use the Yamaha avr phono stage? Wow

Get yourself an external high quality phono stage instead. Avr phono stages are awful!

 

[Escobar01]

yeap I know ,new LDMS custom built music server with integrated Phono stage and DAC it's on the way

About | LucasAudioLab Handcrafted Audio Instruments for Music Enthusiast

www.lucasaudiolab.com

 

[tigertiger12]

This thread could have been answered very simply in one page. Per Tiger’s ask [not all the superfluous advice others seem to want to force on him]. No need to give him crap for his English or translations either, that’s just straight petty, elitism.

Get an outlaw amp. Reliable, affordable and strong enough for your purposes. If not Outlaw, Monoprice; still affordable, reliable and enough power. EMO have always been decent, but recent versions have been reported as bright, some with issues and their customer service has apparently degraded. Still a great product, but go into those fully aware.

Good luck Tiger!

Indeed, thank you for your advice, much appreciated.

I think you can't go wrong with:
Nord One MP NCXXX 5-8 122-500W Custom Configurable Channel Amplifier Black | nordacoustics

Get 7 channels. If you don't like it, sell it to me for a discount please

@tigertiger12

Klipsch seem to get a lot of haters and people who seem to think they know everything about every single one of their speakers despite their range being gigantic... I'm sure your speakers sound amazing.

Also, I had to click the 'show ignored content' to see the constant harassment from rcaguy towards yourself.. despite you telling him you don't need his suggestions. I've had a similar experience and recommend just adding him to the ignore list as its much easier and the input is largely antagonistic and immature more than it is useful.

Thank you, I am looking into this amp so it's definitely up there, but I'm also going to look at other higher quality amps with maybe less channels and then decide.

Thanks again for your comments and understanding.

so it should work even better with author's Demon avr.

I will look into class D amps. rccarguy has a grudge against anyone not doing as he see's fit.
If you say it works well, then you just don't know or understand anything which annoys him even more.
I simply ignore anything he writes as I'm getting interesting information in any case from people that are clearly very nice and polite.
Thank you for your comments and experience.

If someone is already using this combination with good results, why do you say they need a decent avr? It's like you have a grudge against Yamaha.

I apologise for him for he does not understand experiences differ for different people.
You must do as he says or you are wrong as he knows everything better than anyone.

I just googled the Denon 4500H manual for the details. It says

"…the power amplifier provides identical quality for all 9-channels (165 Watts x 9-channels)"

The difference between 165 and 200 watts could be noticed on speakers capable of handling them. But it would be very small indeed. Most of the heavy lifting, and a huge draw on power is in the 20 - 150 Hz range, the large part if that is the two subs. You don't mention the volume of the space you listen in, which would dramatically affect your perception of loudness. With high sens speakers like your Klipsch, your amp is plenty powerful for a medium-large room, maybe 12 x 18 with 8 ft ceiling.

I have the Denon 4400H in a 5.2.4 Atmos setup. I did try a 7.2.4 setup and went down to my current setup because the additional rear surrounds didn't add much for me, nor friends I asked to help me A/B the differences.

You don't mention the crossover settings for the subs, but being an SVS 2000 owner, I can't imagine that those subs don't blow you out of the room even set at the initial 12 noon setting on the sub amps.

I used to think of the watts handling of speakers needed to be matched with the amp. It is important to be in range. But it doesn't have to match. Think of the Watts as the upper limit before the speakers blow out. Or the amp will send blow a fuse. The sensitivity range is more useful in home theater settings.

A very sensitive speaker for a center channel (70% of a movie's sound energy) and very INsensitive surrounds (requires more power from the amps to match center speaker general level) would give that Denon amp a hard life.

But to answer what amp? I'd upgrade the Denon to flagship level. Or a big Emotiva. When using Audyssey or Dirac or REW for timing and phase corrections, trying to spread that between four or five amps is honestly a challenge.

And it is more critical to do with separate power amps. Dolby Atmos and other 3D audio codecs, need very precise timing— so sounds simultaneously arrive at the listener seat. That is important for the helicopter's overhead flight path to be "believed" by your brain. (The aliens walking "upstairs" in A Quiet Place? It still makes me want to check my attic!)

Here is the amp manual: Denon manual for X4500H

Thanks, the max power on the Denon is 710W, total, so I'm thinking each channel would get around 55watts realistically. I understand I don't need to match the amp with the speakers but I want to buy a powerful amp in case I upgrade the speakers later. Maybe I can then still use the same amp.

The flagship Denon is very expensive for very little more power, therefore I got the Denon 4500 and will add a power amp. I may be better to wait, research more and spend more and get a better power amp

thank you

Denon/ Marantz group describe power into 6 Ohms speakers loaded, that make it look impressive. Proper settings might be an issue, if all speakers are set to large for instance the amplifier get it hard to handle, even changing the center speaker settings to small could make significant difference,worth trying btw.Also active subs should be used with own on board amplifiers.I have tested several avrs Denon,Marantz,Arcam and Yamaha and stick to the last one.Denon gets hot but still within the parameters but it's not what I wanted,it should have space to breathe and cool down,I have no heat related issues with my Yamaha.As an author mentioned ,power amp is an option ,but stereo amp also give an opportunity to run 7.2.4 Atmos setup.
Another important details are the cables,room size,speaker placement etc.
As mentioned previously, I run Yamaha/Apollon combo on 7.1.4 setup for movies, for music I have additional valve amplifier for two front channels.Well it must be heard to fully justify this setup,for my ears I have never ,ever heard an Atmos like that before.My current setup is
Y/A combo plus KR 350i valve amp KR Audio VA350 Integrated Amplifier
speakers ,front L/R horn loaded Aria2 mk3

Aria II MK 2 – hORNS

horns.pl

center Dali LCR Rubicon
6 x Dali Phantom s80 ,4 on the ceiling,2 on walls
2x B&W 707 on rear surrounds ,this gonna be changed for Dali shortly to match the rest sonically.
All goes on medium range ,thick pure copper cables.
So Yamaha works mainly as a processor ,feeding itself only 3 channels, also Phono stage is in use with my Rega P2 deck for vinyl .It took me 3 years of planning ,saving etc but definitely worth it.

Indeed, I would like to use the speakers on the large setting which is another reason a power amp would help out. I have an aircom S7 on my Denon so it does not get hot at all now.
Nice setup, thanks for the pic.

Hi. I would like to share my experience of adding power amps. My SR7012 has very similar power rating as your Denon. I was running a cheap power amp to make up the 11 channels to start with. Then the upgrade illness kicked in !! I changed the cheap power amp for a Emotiva A-300 to power the front L&R which was a small improvement, I then added 2 more....that was the game changer !!
All I can say is the power, scale and headroom I have gained is amazing. Even the channels still being driven by the Marantz (centre and heights) have benefitted. Yes it cost me 3x £549 pounds but it was worth it to me. After installing the Emotiva's I ran Audyssey again then level matched the speakers with a Sound Level Meter, which takes Atmos to another level !!
So, adding power amps has definitely worked for me. I hope that helps.

It does help, thank you very much for letting me know your experience as many others experience is the same as yours. As you state this took atmos to another level, which is definitely what I am looking for.

 

[rccarguy]

Indeed, I would like to use the speakers on the large setting which is another reason a power amp would help out. I have an aircom S7 on my Denon so it does not get hot at all now.
Nice setup, thanks for the pic.

You should not use large setting, unless your speakers are truly full range with subwoofers.

You can large or pure direct for two channel music but for movies it is not recommended.

My speakers go down to 32hz and I have beast amps but I don't use large for movies, only music (stereo pre amp has no bass managent so it's full range)

 

[rccarguy]

It does help, thank you very much for letting me know your experience as many others experience is the same as yours. As you state this took atmos to another level, which is definitely what I am looking for.

He didn't me menion what speakers , room size or SPL levels he has, that makes a difference.

 

[60percentsound]

He didn't me menion what speakers , room size or SPL levels he has, that makes a difference.

I didn't have too. I was comparing like for like, with power amps and without power amps....simple.

 

[rccarguy]

I didn't have too. I was comparing like for like, with power amps and without power amps....simple.

But if you have harder to drive and less sensitive speakers it's not fair comparison. A power amp may upgrade yours but perhaps not his.

 

[Rambles]

I didn't have too. I was comparing like for like, with power amps and without power amps....simple.

It does make a difference though.

The OP has Klipsch speakers which are rated at very high sensitivity. For example the OP stated Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - these are rated by Klipsch as 100db sensitivity, so would only need 28 watts to hit reference listening SPL (105db) from a 3 metres distance.

From your signature, the Monitor Audio GS20's are rated at 89db sensitivity, so they would require 358 watts to reach 105db from a 3 metre listening distance.

As you can see, a power amp may make considerably more difference to your speakers than the Klipsch.

However, there are some measurements of other Klipsch speaker models, where they measure as less sensitivie than Klipsch claims, so the only real way to be sure if a power amp would improve the sound for the OP, is to give it a try.

 

[60percentsound]

You lot could draw an argument out of anyone. At NO stage did I say that speaker sensitivity didn't make any difference !!! Read my post properly. "Power amps definitely worked FOR ME. End of.

 

[tigertiger12]

It does make a difference though.

The OP has Klipsch speakers which are rated at very high sensitivity. For example the OP stated Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - these are rated by Klipsch as 100db sensitivity, so would only need 28 watts to hit reference listening SPL (105db) from a 3 metres distance.

From your signature, the Monitor Audio GS20's are rated at 89db sensitivity, so they would require 358 watts to reach 105db from a 3 metre listening distance.

As you can see, a power amp may make considerably more difference to your speakers than the Klipsch.

However, there are some measurements of other Klipsch speaker models, where they measure as less sensitivie than Klipsch claims, so the only real way to be sure if a power amp would improve the sound for the OP, is to give it a try.

So if klipsch overstate their speaker sensitivity ratings lets say by 6db then they would need 112w to power them to 100db which the denon will not provide. In any case adding a power amp will provide headroom, allow me to lower the eq, the tone settings and speaker levels and giving cleaning power / sound. Providing quality. I also then dont need a calculator to work out whether or not it sounds good.


In any case this was his experience, which is what I am looking for. If klipsch over estimate their speaker sensitivity ratings there is nothing to say other manufacturers don't even if by less. If so many people experience better sound when adding a power amp then this would be why. Especially as you know it doubles by every 3db which is much more watts when the volume is higher which a power amp would provide. There are many people even with klipsch speakers that have the same experience as 60percentsound when they add a power amp with an atmos setup. There seems to be a number of reasons why a power amp would prove better.

 

[tigertiger12]

With the heating issue of Denon's I added an aircom S7 to the top of my denon. This keeps it nice and cool, as another poster stated Denons do get hot then the metal cover flexes if you touch it. The aircom stopped that completely and comes on automatically but has a few settings also.

Just thought I'd add this as it really helps keep the AVR cool and Denons are known for getting quite hot.

 

[UtahHusker]

I have stated 7.2.4 as I am just stating I have 2 subs, I believe some people prefer to say 7.1.4 but I like to know how many subs people have, then I can ask which ones!

I have a Denon AVR X4500H with all Klipsch speakers setting up for atmos 7.2.4 but need another power amp as the denon is a 9 channel amp with 11 channel processing.

My speakers are: (some have not yet arrived but this is what I will end up with):

Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - 250W
Surround - Klipsch RP 8000 - 150W
Rear Surround - Kilpsch RP 8000 - 150W
Centre - RC 64 III - 200 W
Atmos - 4 X Klipsch RP 600M - 100W
SVS PB 4000
SVS SB 4000

I am looking for a 5/6 Channel power amp for the front, surround and centre channels.
I’m thinking say 200W per channel.
The Denon can handle the rear surrounds and the 4 X Atmos speakers.

Is it possible with the X4500H to send the first 5 channels via the pre-outs to a power amp and have the X4500H power the surrounds and 4 Atmos speakers. I’m thinking about the last pair of Atmos speakers which the X4500H can process but not power. How would I do this. Can I send the pre-out’s for these atmos speakers into another channel say the surround channel or is this done in the amp assign settings?

I also have a 6ohm 400W Eminence Lab 12 12” subwoofer in a large home made ported box I used to use in my car when I was very young, then I used this on my Kenwood Series 21 straight into the subwoofer speaker out which was rated at 50 watts and boy did it rock. If I don’t add this sub it’s not so important but as it is doing nothing at the moment I will use it if I can.

I suppose I could get a 6 channel amp and split one of the sub pre-out’s from the denon to add this as a 3rd subwoofer. Maybe if i get an amp I can upgrade such as the emotiva XPA Gen3, I could spread the cost by adding modules over time. I would prefer the single channel modules as the stereo modules are 65w @ 8ohms / 100w @ 4ohms.

I have seen the Emotiva brand from reviews of their centre channel on youtube and see they have power amps and even a ‘Build Your Own Custom Configuration’ amp. Maybe I could configure one with 6 single high power channels.

If not i'll get a power amp for the rear surrounds & 4 X Atmos speakers, this could be say 150w per channel.

What would you recommend?
Any tips would be a great help, this is the first time i’m adding a power amp to a system.
I have no experience with power amps, so need all the advice I can get.
My budget is around £5 but I would stretch it to £10!
Say £1000 to £1200 max but as little as possible! Maybe I can stretch to more for the perfect solution.
[/QU

I have stated 7.2.4 as I am just stating I have 2 subs, I believe some people prefer to say 7.1.4 but I like to know how many subs people have, then I can ask which ones!

I have a Denon AVR X4500H with all Klipsch speakers setting up for atmos 7.2.4 but need another power amp as the denon is a 9 channel amp with 11 channel processing.

My speakers are: (some have not yet arrived but this is what I will end up with):

Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - 250W
Surround - Klipsch RP 8000 - 150W
Rear Surround - Kilpsch RP 8000 - 150W
Centre - RC 64 III - 200 W
Atmos - 4 X Klipsch RP 600M - 100W
SVS PB 4000
SVS SB 4000

I am looking for a 5/6 Channel power amp for the front, surround and centre channels.
I’m thinking say 200W per channel.
The Denon can handle the rear surrounds and the 4 X Atmos speakers.

Is it possible with the X4500H to send the first 5 channels via the pre-outs to a power amp and have the X4500H power the surrounds and 4 Atmos speakers. I’m thinking about the last pair of Atmos speakers which the X4500H can process but not power. How would I do this. Can I send the pre-out’s for these atmos speakers into another channel say the surround channel or is this done in the amp assign settings?

I also have a 6ohm 400W Eminence Lab 12 12” subwoofer in a large home made ported box I used to use in my car when I was very young, then I used this on my Kenwood Series 21 straight into the subwoofer speaker out which was rated at 50 watts and boy did it rock. If I don’t add this sub it’s not so important but as it is doing nothing at the moment I will use it if I can.

I suppose I could get a 6 channel amp and split one of the sub pre-out’s from the denon to add this as a 3rd subwoofer. Maybe if i get an amp I can upgrade such as the emotiva XPA Gen3, I could spread the cost by adding modules over time. I would prefer the single channel modules as the stereo modules are 65w @ 8ohms / 100w @ 4ohms.

I have seen the Emotiva brand from reviews of their centre channel on youtube and see they have power amps and even a ‘Build Your Own Custom Configuration’ amp. Maybe I could configure one with 6 single high power channels.

If not i'll get a power amp for the rear surrounds & 4 X Atmos speakers, this could be say 150w per channel.

What would you recommend?
Any tips would be a great help, this is the first time i’m adding a power amp to a system.
I have no experience with power amps, so need all the advice I can get.
My budget is around £5 but I would stretch it to £10!
Say £1000 to £1200 max but as little as possible! Maybe I can stretch to more for the perfect solution.

I have an all Klipsch 7.1.4 system running through a Denon AVR-X3700H receiver. I use a Russound P75 amplifier to power the rear heights. It works perfectly for this setup.

I have stated 7.2.4 as I am just stating I have 2 subs, I believe some people prefer to say 7.1.4 but I like to know how many subs people have, then I can ask which ones!

I have a Denon AVR X4500H with all Klipsch speakers setting up for atmos 7.2.4 but need another power amp as the denon is a 9 channel amp with 11 channel processing.

My speakers are: (some have not yet arrived but this is what I will end up with):

Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - 250W
Surround - Klipsch RP 8000 - 150W
Rear Surround - Kilpsch RP 8000 - 150W
Centre - RC 64 III - 200 W
Atmos - 4 X Klipsch RP 600M - 100W
SVS PB 4000
SVS SB 4000

I am looking for a 5/6 Channel power amp for the front, surround and centre channels.
I’m thinking say 200W per channel.
The Denon can handle the rear surrounds and the 4 X Atmos speakers.

Is it possible with the X4500H to send the first 5 channels via the pre-outs to a power amp and have the X4500H power the surrounds and 4 Atmos speakers. I’m thinking about the last pair of Atmos speakers which the X4500H can process but not power. How would I do this. Can I send the pre-out’s for these atmos speakers into another channel say the surround channel or is this done in the amp assign settings?

I also have a 6ohm 400W Eminence Lab 12 12” subwoofer in a large home made ported box I used to use in my car when I was very young, then I used this on my Kenwood Series 21 straight into the subwoofer speaker out which was rated at 50 watts and boy did it rock. If I don’t add this sub it’s not so important but as it is doing nothing at the moment I will use it if I can.

I suppose I could get a 6 channel amp and split one of the sub pre-out’s from the denon to add this as a 3rd subwoofer. Maybe if i get an amp I can upgrade such as the emotiva XPA Gen3, I could spread the cost by adding modules over time. I would prefer the single channel modules as the stereo modules are 65w @ 8ohms / 100w @ 4ohms.

I have seen the Emotiva brand from reviews of their centre channel on youtube and see they have power amps and even a ‘Build Your Own Custom Configuration’ amp. Maybe I could configure one with 6 single high power channels.

If not i'll get a power amp for the rear surrounds & 4 X Atmos speakers, this could be say 150w per channel.

What would you recommend?
Any tips would be a great help, this is the first time i’m adding a power amp to a system.
I have no experience with power amps, so need all the advice I can get.
My budget is around £5 but I would stretch it to £10!
Say £1000 to £1200 max but as little as possible! Maybe I can stretch to more for the perfect solution.

I have an all Klipsch RP system. It's a 7.1.4 - I don't have room for a 2nd subwoofer, though I wish I did. I run it all through my Denon AVR-X3700H receiver. I use a Russound P75 external power amplifier to power the rear heights and it works perfectly. I would absolutely make the same decision again. Gives plenty of power to the rear height speakers and balances perfectly with the rest of the system.

 

[UtahHusker]

With the heating issue of Denon's I added an aircom S7 to the top of my denon. This keeps it nice and cool, as another poster stated Denons do get hot then the metal cover flexes if you touch it. The aircom stopped that completely and comes on automatically but has a few settings also.

Just thought I'd add this as it really helps keep the AVR cool and Denons are known for getting quite hot.

I added an Aircom T10 to vent the heat out the front for my system. It does a great job of regulating the temperature of my Denon receiver, which does run hot otherwise.

 

[tigertiger12]

I added an Aircom T10 to vent the heat out the front for my system. It does a great job of regulating the temperature of my Denon receiver, which does run hot otherwise.

Which model speakers do you have?
I like the power amp features, very nice.
Indeed the aircom is a denons cool best friend! Keeping him cool when he's letting off some steam! Mine can be left in auto mode and it's just perfect. I would love to see a picture of the T10 on the Denon to see how it fits. Mine is only a little one. Would like it to be flush with the width of the denon especially as so many denon owners buy an aircom! They are quite expensive for what they are here in the U.K as they come from the U.S so taxes and delivery adds a little, but they work perfectly and look very nice also.
Thank you for your information, i really appreciate it.

 

[UtahHusker]

I have all Klipsch Speakers:
RP-8060FA's for front mains and front atmos
RP-504C for center channel
RP-600M's for side surround
RP-500SA's for side/rear atmos (placed on 600M's)
RP-502S's for rear surrounds
SPL-150 15" subwoofer

The Aircom T10 fits perfectly on my Denon. I've included a few pics. Sorry It's in a dark corner so I tried to take the pics while holding a flashlight so you can make out the component edges since they're all black. I pushed my external amp and Tivo back a ways so you could get a better view from the top of how it fits. It fits the Denon both in width and depth perfectly - like it was made for it. They're amateurish pics but I hope they help a little. Good luck to you!

 

[Rambles]

So if klipsch overstate their speaker sensitivity ratings lets say by 6db then they would need 112w to power them to 100db which the denon will not provide.

Yes, 113 watts to get to reference of 105db from 3 metres, with 94db sensitivity. But that is with one speaker, and using one amp channel, where the Denon is able to output up to 165 watts.

If we add in the other 12 speakers in the 7.2.4 set-up, this drops down to 10 watts per speaker required to reach reference of 105db, and that isn't taking into account the in room effect, where reflections from the walls and ceiling will add to the overall SPL.

adding a power amp will provide headroom, allow me to lower the eq, the tone settings and speaker levels

It will add headroom, but it may be excess headroom that will never be utilised with those klipsch speakers. An external amp won't make any difference to the EQ or tone. The speaker level settings may be slightly different, could be lower or higher, that would depend on the gain of the external amp in relation to the pre-out voltage of the Denon.

I know you are very keen to try a power amp, so should do so to satisfy your curiosity. But, hopefully the above-mentioned is interesting to you and to other people who read the thread who may have a similar system to yours.

 

[Spennis]

I'm running the XTZ edge A2-300 two channel amp with my Denon X4500H. Why this one? Plenty of power, resonable price and a very very sleek design. It fits behind my Blu-ray player in an IKEA media furniture, which is just awesome. To pair the X4500H with similarly sized amp would defeat the purpose of using a receiver rather than separates in my opinion. It needs to be sleek, otherwise it won't enter our living room.

 

[tigertiger12]

Yes, 113 watts to get to reference of 105db from 3 metres, with 94db sensitivity. But that is with one speaker, and using one amp channel, where the Denon is able to output up to 165 watts.

If we add in the other 12 speakers in the 7.2.4 set-up, this drops down to 10 watts per speaker required to reach reference of 105db, and that isn't taking into account the in room effect, where reflections from the walls and ceiling will add to the overall SPL.

It will add headroom, but it may be excess headroom that will never be utilised with those klipsch speakers. An external amp won't make any difference to the EQ or tone. The speaker level settings may be slightly different, could be lower or higher, that would depend on the gain of the external amp in relation to the pre-out voltage of the Denon.

I know you are very keen to try a power amp, so should do so to satisfy your curiosity. But, hopefully the above-mentioned is interesting to you and to other people who read the thread who may have a similar system to yours.

Exactly it will add headroom that I don't wish to be utilised but will be there for possible future upgrade. Then also there is the increase in quality which so many experience. There are so many threads on this. When you reply, you leave such bits out. In any case we are only confirming the same things over and over. If you have anything new to add, please do so but to keep this repetitiveness seems pointless, especially as you miss out the numerous reasons for a power amp.

I cannot see that the denon is using 10w per speaker in real life to achieve 105db. As this is highly variable with different speakers which you don't mention. At 10watts it gets extremely hot, so hot I bought the aircom immediately as it was a concern, if the amp can put out lets say 50w per channel that's 5 times more per speaker, if the speakers could handle it, it would be crazy hot. Even 2 or 3 times would be insane.

Again, there are many reasons to add a power amp and overall many people hear improvement in sound, even with a klipsch set up. Are you saying they are imagining this?
In any case we are just not getting anywhere with this. rccarguy in now harassing me on PM and your replies are only according to very approximate maths and your guidelines so you miss the whole picture. Yet you also admit I should buy an amp and find out for myself which I will do when I have all my speakers and I'm good and ready. I will try it out for myself and report what I find, therefore no need for further discussion no this as we are not adding any new information. I fully understand what you have said. But again, these figures are all very approximate and real world and theory are two completely different things. I meet some very educated people but when taken away from what they have learnt they get lost and become confused. As I have stated I went from being homeless, having no family or help to becoming successful by not following the 'norm'. By trying things myself and having the experience which counts for so much more. For example it is clear rccarguy is not throwing straight dice. When you read threads, you read them for what you want and misinterpret so much or stick to single issues.

I would love to know if there is a way to see how many watts my AVR is putting to the speakers, in it's current setup and I would compare this to when I add the power amp. But for me to not buy a power amp when the cost would be very very little indeed (as I could sell it) and just listen to what you guys say and not have the experience myself makes no sense at all. I had the same with adding a PB & SB, people just repeat what they have read. For me it works perfectly, maybe you don't believe this?? Then rccarguy's response to this was vague yet he has had everything! He is not clear on what he does have or which he sold and offered to buy my SB? Sounds like he is not being honest as why not be clear and say what he has and what his experience was from the start? In my experience it is people like this that bend the truth to suit their needs.

At the start of this thread I was skeptical about needing a power amp. Neither of you were able to help with my avr which is much improved now and your constant repeated threads on the same topics and picking at minor details of other peoples threads make me suspicious, especially as so so many people hear an improvement in sound when adding a power amp. I just feel your advice is not practical, but I am not disagreeing with what you are saying, just that in the real world your figures are not accurate and to determine this too hard. I say this as on here and many other forums people say the same over and over that they have heard a difference when adding a power amp. Many even saying it has transformed their atmos system. This has been repeated more than you and rccarguy put together! This is a huge conflict to what you say. Are they dreaming / imagining this?

Peace, no malice intended.

 

[rccarguy]

If you have a smart electric meter, or plugin power usage meter you can get an idea how much power the amplifier is using

With my TV, two subwoofers, two amplifiers, av pre amp it was using about 400-550w. That's for seven channels.

I have 200/300w going into side and surrounds probably went over the top, so spent money where it isn't needed
If you think giving opinion and advise is "harassment" I think it's best to do what you want to do and don't bother asking for advice.

Again just because other people say power amplifiers are worth it for them (and for me also) doesn't mean it'll be the same for you.

I'd say but a three channel power amplifier use that for left right and center use the Denon for remaining that'll free up power for remaining channels and have most important channels powered by dedicated amps.

As for you having SB and PB svs subs, even svs would state having two different design subs is not ideal, but I'm sure you know more than svs themselves.

 

[tigertiger12]

View attachment 1439675I have all Klipsch Speakers:
RP-8060FA's for front mains and front atmos
RP-504C for center channel
RP-600M's for side surround
RP-500SA's for side/rear atmos (placed on 600M's)
RP-502S's for rear surrounds
SPL-150 15" subwoofer

The Aircom T10 fits perfectly on my Denon. I've included a few pics. Sorry It's in a dark corner so I tried to take the pics while holding a flashlight so you can make out the component edges since they're all black. I pushed my external amp and Tivo back a ways so you could get a better view from the top of how it fits. It fits the Denon both in width and depth perfectly - like it was made for it. They're amateurish pics but I hope they help a little. Good luck to you!View attachment 1439672View attachment 1439673

Thank you very much for your time and effort to take these pictures. That T10 looks perfect but now you have made me want to buy one! There are stock issues here at the moment but as this has come from your recommendation and my birthday was this month, i'm willing to accept one as a gift from you!!!

It does fit very nice, mine not so much! I do think they are expensive over here for what they are, though the features are very good. I don't know of any other product that comes near the aircom. When stocks are replenished here I will buy one!

I am looking at the amp also!

Thanks again.

 

[Rambles]

I cannot see that the denon is using 10w per speaker in real life to achieve 105db. As this is highly variable with different speakers which you don't mention.

Just to clarify, that is with 13 speakers of 94db sensitivity from a 3 metre listening distance.

Peace, no malice intended

Likewise

 

[tigertiger12]

Just to clarify, that is with 13 speakers of 94db sensitivity from a 3 metre listening distance.

Likewise

13 speakers? you may as well work it out for 20 speakers as I don't have 20 speakers either!
This is why I am saying all this maths does not work, is inaccurate and too difficult to work out especially as you make the figures suit yourself. At the start of this I was skeptical about needing a power amp but the more I read and the more you say, the more it seems to be the right thing.

It's too difficult to work out even with the sensitivity specs from the manufacturer. I always take manufacturers specs with a pinch of salt. They always quote total channel power by 2 channels driven.

My speakers are:
Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - 250W
Surround - Klipsch RP 8000 - 150W
Rear Surround - Kilpsch RP 8000 - 150W
Centre - RC 64 III - 200 W
Atmos - 4 X Klipsch RP 600M - 100W

If you really feel the need to work it out. However, what do you deduct for over rating? What would be the power required for the speakers at 100db, 106db & 109db out of interest?

All this is too difficult to work out in a real world situation. Furthermore, so many people say a power amp improves sound, many say there is a dramatic improvement. Do you believe they are imagining this? For whatever reason? Because they have spent the money? Or because they mistakenly believe they hear better sound?