Which power amp to add to Denon avr-x4500h With Klipsch for Atmos 7.2.4

tigertiger12

Active Member
I have stated 7.2.4 as I am just stating I have 2 subs, I believe some people prefer to say 7.1.4 but I like to know how many subs people have, then I can ask which ones!

I have a Denon AVR X4500H with all Klipsch speakers setting up for atmos 7.2.4 but need another power amp as the denon is a 9 channel amp with 11 channel processing.

My speakers are: (some have not yet arrived but this is what I will end up with):

Fronts - Klipsch RF 7 III - 250W
Surround - Klipsch RP 8000 - 150W
Rear Surround - Kilpsch RP 8000 - 150W
Centre - RC 64 III - 200 W
Atmos - 4 X Klipsch RP 600M - 100W
SVS PB 4000
SVS SB 4000

I am looking for a 5/6 Channel power amp for the front, surround and centre channels.
I’m thinking say 200W per channel.
The Denon can handle the rear surrounds and the 4 X Atmos speakers.

Is it possible with the X4500H to send the first 5 channels via the pre-outs to a power amp and have the X4500H power the surrounds and 4 Atmos speakers. I’m thinking about the last pair of Atmos speakers which the X4500H can process but not power. How would I do this. Can I send the pre-out’s for these atmos speakers into another channel say the surround channel or is this done in the amp assign settings?

I also have a 6ohm 400W Eminence Lab 12 12” subwoofer in a large home made ported box I used to use in my car when I was very young, then I used this on my Kenwood Series 21 straight into the subwoofer speaker out which was rated at 50 watts and boy did it rock. If I don’t add this sub it’s not so important but as it is doing nothing at the moment I will use it if I can.

I suppose I could get a 6 channel amp and split one of the sub pre-out’s from the denon to add this as a 3rd subwoofer. Maybe if i get an amp I can upgrade such as the emotiva XPA Gen3, I could spread the cost by adding modules over time. I would prefer the single channel modules as the stereo modules are 65w @ 8ohms / 100w @ 4ohms.

I have seen the Emotiva brand from reviews of their centre channel on youtube and see they have power amps and even a ‘Build Your Own Custom Configuration’ amp. Maybe I could configure one with 6 single high power channels.

If not i'll get a power amp for the rear surrounds & 4 X Atmos speakers, this could be say 150w per channel.

What would you recommend?
Any tips would be a great help, this is the first time i’m adding a power amp to a system.
I have no experience with power amps, so need all the advice I can get.
My budget is around £5 but I would stretch it to £10!
Say £1000 to £1200 max but as little as possible! Maybe I can stretch to more for the perfect solution.
 

Rambles

Distinguished Member
Hello. I wonder if you may be over estimating how much power you need?

Klipsch speakers are known to be very easy to drive with high sensitivity. The RF 7 III only need 28 watts to reach reference (105db) at 3 metres, and that is without taking into account the room, the subs and the other speakers.

I think you might get away with a lower cost 2 channel amp for the additional two speakers, rather than a big multi channel amp.
 

tigertiger12

Active Member
Hello. I wonder if you may be over estimating how much power you need?

Klipsch speakers are known to be very easy to drive with high sensitivity. The RF 7 III only need 28 watts to reach reference (105db) at 3 metres, and that is without taking into account the room, the subs and the other speakers.

I think you might get away with a lower cost 2 channel amp for the additional two speakers, rather than a big multi channel amp.

Hi,

I understand what you are saying but i already know this and I do need more power as i'm already near full volume for movies.

I would like to have the amps match the speakers as best as I can. It seems odd to have bought all these speakers then have them under powered like this. I may as well have bought much cheaper speakers to match the output of the Denon AVR.
Do you have any recommendations for big multi channel amps?
 

rccarguy

Active Member
Be careful with SPL as once you get hearing damage that is it.

To get more power than your Denon you'll need to spend a fair amount, as Denon are pretty good, you would be looking at 150-200w per channel to make it worthwhile.say ATI1800 or. Emotiva.XPa
Also you might not want to have must matched subs, sealed box and ported isn't a good idea.

I'd be willing to buy the sb4000 off you.
 

dollag

Well-known Member
Hi,

I understand what you are saying but i already know this and I do need more power as i'm already near full volume for movies.

I would like to have the amps match the speakers as best as I can. It seems odd to have bought all these speakers then have them under powered like this. I may as well have bought much cheaper speakers to match the output of the Denon AVR.
Do you have any recommendations for big multi channel amps?


Why do you think they are under-powered?

The Denon receiver should have enough power to get the klipsch to reference levels pretty easily.

Emotiva is imo the best place to get good clean power. even their basX range provides great value.

you could also look into pro amps from the like of crown etc
 

Rambles

Distinguished Member
i'm already near full volume for movies.
I'm curious to know what this means? Do you mean the number on the AVRs volume dial? What number are you at, and have you calibrated with Audyssey?
 

tigertiger12

Active Member
Be careful with SPL as once you get hearing damage that is it.

To get more power than your Denon you'll need to spend a fair amount, as Denon are pretty good, you would be looking at 150-200w per channel to make it worthwhile.say ATI1800 or. Emotiva.XPa
Also you might not want to have must matched subs, sealed box and ported isn't a good idea.

I'd be willing to buy the sb4000 off you.

lol, sub not for sale.
not sure why people say this, is fine and works great.
have you done this yourself?
I'm sure if you heard it you would understand. Don't have any issues at all.
Most people that comment on this have never actually done it themselves.
I would love to see someone with such a setup that is having issues to see why.

I like the Denon but I'm probably getting a fair bit less than 100w per channel running 9 channels.
Not worried about hearing damage, i'm not silly with it.

need advice on power amps, not all this other stuff.
 

tigertiger12

Active Member
Why do you think they are under-powered?

The Denon receiver should have enough power to get the klipsch to reference levels pretty easily.

Emotiva is imo the best place to get good clean power. even their basX range provides great value.

you could also look into pro amps from the like of crown etc

great, i'm looking into emotiva more but would also like to know other options / makes.
Looking through some posts here I do see people do this, some even have multiple power amps.
not sure why people are trying to put me off what i'm trying to do.

Lets say I buy a power amp say emotiva and I dont get out of it what I expect, I will simply sell it
within a month and get very close to what I paid on ebay or amazon. Then i've had the experience and it has only cost me a little bit which is nothing compared to what i've spent. Just want amp power to match that of the speakers. I'm struggling as i'm using the top end of the denon power and would rather have some headroom. What would I be at with the Denon 50 / 60w per channel using 9 channels?
 

Rambles

Distinguished Member
It's because of your speakers. Klipsch speakers are very easy to drive, with unusually high sensitivity. Running at -10 on the volume means you are not at maximum. Reference is 0. By all means add a power amp if you want to, but you don't need one with your speakers.
 

rccarguy

Active Member
great, i'm looking into emotiva more but would also like to know other options / makes.
Looking through some posts here I do see people do this, some even have multiple power amps.
not sure why people are trying to put me off what i'm trying to do.

Lets say I buy a power amp say emotiva and I dont get out of it what I expect, I will simply sell it
within a month and get very close to what I paid on ebay or amazon. Then i've had the experience and it has only cost me a little bit which is nothing compared to what i've spent. Just want amp power to match that of the speakers. I'm struggling as i'm using the top end of the denon power and would rather have some headroom. What would I be at with the Denon 50 / 60w per channel using 9 channels?

I'm using ATI 2000 with my speakers. I'd upgrade klipsch speakers to somethinf better first.

I think Denon 4xxx has about 75w with 7 channels driven
 

tigertiger12

Active Member
I'm using ATI 2000 with my speakers. I'd upgrade klipsch speakers to somethinf better first.

I think Denon 4xxx has about 75w with 7 channels driven

What speakers are you using the ATI 2000 with?

Just got the klipsch so wont be upgrading anytime soon and don't see why as
you state denon around 75w at 7 channels so will be less with 9 and the surrounds and rears will take 150w, the fronts 250w and centre 200w. So at 50 - 60w using 9 channels i'm a fair bit off what the speakers can handle and have no headroom.
so i will get a power amp around 150w maybe 200w per channel.
Struggling to find the ATI amp, how much is it roughly?
 

tigertiger12

Active Member
It's because of your speakers. Klipsch speakers are very easy to drive, with unusually high sensitivity. Running at -10 on the volume means you are not at maximum. Reference is 0. By all means add a power amp if you want to, but you don't need one with your speakers.

Didn't say I was at the maximum but that I was near full volume and have no headroom really.

I will be adding a power amp and if it doesn't achieve what I want I will sell it.
But this is not the advice I'm getting elsewhere also.
Doesn't really make sense, it is common and others do it wilth a similar setup, i'm doing doing anything odd. There is about 50 - 60w getting to my speakers which can handle much more and I have no headroom. With a power amp, I will get more volume, headroom and less stress on my Denon which gets quite hot so I have a fan on top of it to cool it automatically.

Then also I'm running a PB and SB with no issues but people saying it's not a good idea when they have probably never tried it and I found it easy, placement also important and many cant put them where they should be so not because it doesn't work, I dont have this issue. There is a lot of advice how to do this, but I did not need to use this to set them up, I saw it after. If the same people listened to my setup they would be surprised it seems. Instead of asking how it sounds or if I had any issues i'm being told it's not a good idea!

I'm just looking for models of power amps and i'm getting better advice from others, not like this!
Telling me I need to get better speakers and an offer to buy my SB!!! Which is not for sale!!!
If it was it would be for much more than I paid as i'd have to get another and move the thing around and set it up again!
 

Rambles

Distinguished Member

rccarguy

Active Member
I'm using celestion "A" range speakers.

As for power typically 100w per channel will be plenty, with typical speakers that will get you reference levels, and being your speakers are efficient you don't need a lot of power to get high SPL. Sure it's good to have reserve but you have more SPL out of a given watt compared to mine.

As others have said you only need a few watts to have high SPL, I would suggest using a power meter see how power your amp is using, you'll find probably 50w or so per channel for high volumes.


The Denon avr are one of the stronger avr amps that produce decent power along with arcam, Nad, pioneer class d, marantz
I've used a NAD 30w amp, and it performed fine with regular speakers, and been using 60w audiolabs

ATI amps aren't cheap, emotiva aren't as good in component quality, looking at about £2000 for a emotiva poweramp.

Klipsch speakers aren't well liked, they are brash and bright sounding
I don't think you quite understand the relationship between speaker power handling and actual dB outputted in your room, with required power to do that.


If your speakers had 100,000 watts, do you really think you would need that much power at the amp?

My speakers are 200w power handling, but my amps output 300w into that impedance but if I replace the ATI with my audiolab 60w amps, it'll still get to decent dB output without clipping.

It's also not a good idea to run ported and sealed subs, due to phase and response.
 

rccarguy

Active Member
Didn't say I was at the maximum but that I was near full volume and have no headroom really.

I will be adding a power amp and if it doesn't achieve what I want I will sell it.
But this is not the advice I'm getting elsewhere also.
Doesn't really make sense, it is common and others do it wilth a similar setup, i'm doing doing anything odd. There is about 50 - 60w getting to my speakers which can handle much more and I have no headroom. With a power amp, I will get more volume, headroom and less stress on my Denon which gets quite hot so I have a fan on top of it to cool it automatically.

Then also I'm running a PB and SB with no issues but people saying it's not a good idea when they have probably never tried it and I found it easy, placement also important and many cant put them where they should be so not because it doesn't work, I dont have this issue. There is a lot of advice how to do this, but I did not need to use this to set them up, I saw it after. If the same people listened to my setup they would be surprised it seems. Instead of asking how it sounds or if I had any issues i'm being told it's not a good idea!

I'm just looking for models of power amps and i'm getting better advice from others, not like this!
Telling me I need to get better speakers and an offer to buy my SB!!! Which is not for sale!!!
If it was it would be for much more than I paid as i'd have to get another and move the thing around and set it up again!

If you calibrated your system.to 75db, at -10db your system will be EXACTLY the same spl as mine at -10db.
 

Isco 3

Active Member
Exactly. And even the largest power amp on earth would give you the same loudness on-10db.
Your front speakers are 100db sensitivity. At -10db you get 95db because reference is 105db. If you are seating 4m away from that speaker and you are listening at -10db, your Denon is putting out only 5W to your speaker. You can hit reference at 4m with 50W only.

So regardless the power amp, -10db would sound the same loud and would require 5W only...I am not suggesting not to buy a power amp, but to buy one for the right reasons.
 
Last edited:

rccarguy

Active Member
Exactly. And even the largest power amp on earth would give you the same loudness on-10db.
Your front speakers are 100db sensitivity. At -10db you get 95db because reference is 105db. If you are seating 4m away from that speaker and you are listening at -10db, your Denon is putting out only 5W to your speaker. You can hit reference at 4m with 50W only.

So regardless the power amp, -10db would sound the same loud and would require 5W only...I am not suggesting not to buy a power amp, but to buy one for the right reasons.


He could buy 9 boulder 3050 monoblocs! Something like 4000w. Plenty of POWA!

And only a million pounds
 

tigertiger12

Active Member

rccarguy

Active Member
I understand this, so if I add a power amp it wont be louder? I wont get extra headroom?
It doesn't need to be much louder but louder than what it is.

Yours and mine will be at the same actual dB.at a specific.- number

If you get a more powerful amp, then at very high volumes it'll be more controlled, but that's if your amp is running out of power.


Upgrading your speakers to another brand will result in better sound quality
 

tigertiger12

Active Member
I'm using celestion "A" range speakers.

As for power typically 100w per channel will be plenty, with typical speakers that will get you reference levels, and being your speakers are efficient you don't need a lot of power to get high SPL. Sure it's good to have reserve but you have more SPL out of a given watt compared to mine.

As others have said you only need a few watts to have high SPL, I would suggest using a power meter see how power your amp is using, you'll find probably 50w or so per channel for high volumes.


The Denon avr are one of the stronger avr amps that produce decent power along with arcam, Nad, pioneer class d, marantz
I've used a NAD 30w amp, and it performed fine with regular speakers, and been using 60w audiolabs

ATI amps aren't cheap, emotiva aren't as good in component quality, looking at about £2000 for a emotiva poweramp.

Klipsch speakers aren't well liked, they are brash and bright sounding
I don't think you quite understand the relationship between speaker power handling and actual dB outputted in your room, with required power to do that.


If your speakers had 100,000 watts, do you really think you would need that much power at the amp?

My speakers are 200w power handling, but my amps output 300w into that impedance but if I replace the ATI with my audiolab 60w amps, it'll still get to decent dB output without clipping.

It's also not a good idea to run ported and sealed subs, due to phase and response.

I'm nowhere near even 100w at the moment though which is why I want to add a power amp.
again, I have litterally no headroom.
You state Denon is one of the stronger AVR that produces decent power but others don't and class it as entry level.

I don't mind going to £2k, if I can achieve what I want. Good quality, louder, headroom and keeping the volume on the denon lower so it stays cooler.
If you don't like klipsch that's fine and your opinion, many do, the reviews are excellent and we love them. I tried a pair and loved them so bought the rest. again you are assuming I don't like them cos you don't. I can keep the treble down which is great and they sound clear. Bass is great. Very happy indeed. If I add a power amp matching the speakers levels if I do upgrade the speakers the amp will be fine.

I have no intention of using 100,000w speakers, 150 - 250 w speakers and a 150 - 200w power amp and set each one accordingly. Bit extreme. I'm probably getting 55 w to each speaker from my Denon at top end. Don't see how this is such a problem. Then I can add more subs.

Not sure why you bought the 300w ati amp then.

again...you are assuming PB and SB is not good due to phase and response, both issues I have not faced. I've done this without issues so don't see why adding a power amp is such a big deal. If i listened and believed everything that people told me I would have achieved very little in my life.
again, if I do not achieve what I want I will simply sell the power amp and it will have cost me say £200 which is very very little compared to what I have spent. Very cheap for the experience of doing this and learning myself. I do understand what you are saying but I will do this and learn for myself but I've said this before but still you wish to stop me, quoting things I have looked into. It's not that abnormal. I have a PB and SB together with no issues, so many quote what they've read but without doing it themselves. there are many posts and such showing this can be done and it really isn't that technical or hard if placement is right. By now I would have said my peace once and told yo to go for it and try it and let me know how it works out for you.
Just getting very little advice on which model power amps.
What I do doesn't affect you at all but seems it does.
With this denon at -10db I struggle to raise the EQ and individual speaker levels as it lowers the top db I can reach.
 

tigertiger12

Active Member
Exactly. And even the largest power amp on earth would give you the same loudness on-10db.
Your front speakers are 100db sensitivity. At -10db you get 95db because reference is 105db. If you are seating 4m away from that speaker and you are listening at -10db, your Denon is putting out only 5W to your speaker. You can hit reference at 4m with 50W only.

So regardless the power amp, -10db would sound the same loud and would require 5W only...I am not suggesting not to buy a power amp, but to buy one for the right reasons.

Why do people buy power amps then?
I'm not looking for insane amounts of power, just more than I currently have, so may as well
get close to the speakers and get some headroom.
 

rccarguy

Active Member
Just but a ATI 6007 then you seem to want people.to agree with you
 

rccarguy

Active Member
Why do people buy power amps then?
I'm not looking for insane amounts of power, just more than I currently have, so may as well
get close to the speakers and get some headroom.

Because they have low impedance speakers, mine are 4ohm. 90db sensivity.
 

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