Which one

Discussion in 'Camcorders, Action Cams & Video Making Forum' started by LicensedTaximan, May 2, 2007.

  1. LicensedTaximan

    LicensedTaximan
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    Further to my thread some weeks ago I now feel that the latest JVC Everio G7 hdd is going to be a little over the top in price, and although it had a decent enough write up it appears not to be the all singing all dancing panacea some of us thought, and given the difficult editing scenario i'll give it a miss.:(

    So......given that I want a decent camcorder for our holiday coming up in August, and for ease of pc editing and a good widescreen image which is essential so it will be compatible with a future widescreen plasma / lcd, i've decided to bend towards HDV minidv. The two models I have in mind at the moment is the Canon HV20 or the Sony HDR HC7. Bear in mind I still have some time on my hands so there is a possibility of new models popping up between now and the last couple of weeks in July.

    Any comments would be most welcome and appreciated. As per my previous thread I presume with decent editing software I can put the soundtrack into DD 5.1. Any suggestions on that will also be welcomed....Not a lot to ask then:cool:
     
  2. senu

    senu
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    ...Not really:cool:

    This might be helpful for starters then..
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=516980
     
  3. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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    HV20 or HC7… I don’t think you can go wrong with either one. Quality of the video between the two is more or less the same. The HV20 has an edge when used in the progressive mode… though you need to make sure your editing software can recognise this mode to do the “pulldown” required to extract these progressive frames out of the interlaced wrapper.

    Even though I’m a Sony owner, the Canon does seem to have the edge, but it’s close.
     
  4. LicensedTaximan

    LicensedTaximan
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    I'm hoping you'll have, with your wisdom on these matters, lots of patience as well.;) What's that all about up above. I'm reasonably ok on home cinema but when it comes to the techie side of camcorders...apart from point and shoot (ok a few decently composed shots and don't zoom very much, change angles / positions reasonably often)....er i'm sort of...er.:(
     
  5. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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    Take a look at this post and see if it helps...
    http://www.avforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4513581&postcount=4

    The HV20 has this progressive mode, the HC7 doesn't.
    But I've seen reports from other Vegas users (editing software) saying that the software doesn't recognise the progressive format. But I expect that will get fixed, and maybe other software will handle it.

    Progressive mode on the HV20 is a bonus... you can always use the normal interlaced mode if there are any editing issues.
     
  6. senu

    senu
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    Mark can best explain this but Ill give it a simple go
    When video is displayed: all the lines can be shown at once( progressive)
    or
    Alternative lines rapidly displayed but so fast our eyes see the "full " image
    ( interlaced)
    Progressive displays are meant to give a better quality and more fluid video : hence the marketing of 1080i ( interlaced) not being "full HD" as opposed to 1080p ( progressive)
    If say you play a DVD which is interlaced; the DVD player can deinterlace it ( making it progressive) prior to display on the TV

    Most Consumer camcorders record as interlaced. the Canon is one of the few which has broken this mould
    Because editing software isnt expecting as such, it is put in an Interlaced "wrapper".. , it is the ability to work round this that I think Mark refers to

    Im sure he'll correct any errors in my feeble attempt

    What is more important is that if you do get the Canon and your editing software is unable to digest the progressive output, then youll need to use it in purely interlace mode and the Canons advantage over the HC7 is then theoretical

    PS: we were Posting simultaneously... as usual:D ( and he types a whole lot faster)
     
  7. LicensedTaximan

    LicensedTaximan
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    I have to say that at this moment in time the Canon has the edge.

    I'm not an avid (hmm is there a pun there) camcorder user in terms of making mini films, interviews etc etc but over the years my holidays and family growing up videos are, I feel, above the bog standard.

    When using my aged s-vhs camcorder I edited footage via two s-vhs decks and in between these decks I connected a titler and a colour correcter, all of course in the analogue domain. On top of that my s-vhs decks were connected through my hi-fi system and I was able to, on the linear track add music. I then recopied this footage to the other deck therebye transferring the soundtrack complete with the music back on to the hi-fi track. There was very little degredation on the picture due to it being s-vhs. I have since transferred all those past years footage onto dvd disc via the hard drive on a dvd recorder to finesse some slight rough edges, it took me bloody ages but it was worth it. I waited untill duel layer recordable dvds and obviously compatable dvd recorders came on the scene so four hours worth of video in standard play could be transferred onto one disc with no loss of picture or sound quality.

    I'm sure by purchasing one of these latest camcorders, possibly the Canon, not only will I be amazed at the picture quality and in widescreen but the sound as well, and this with the smallish to small physical size of these models. Although My Panasonic s-vhs palmcorder was small for its day, and got a very good write up for picture and sound (about eleven years ago) it is now like lugging a small monster about (read aching shoulders) ....no thank you anymore, especially given that we are going to Disney World.

    Then there is all the latest pc software to manipulate not only the stereo sound into DD5.1 but also picture enhancements and effects (not too many mind you ...otherwise:boring:) then transfer the whole lot onto dvd...mmmmm nice.:smashin:
     
  8. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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    Senu - nice explanation.

    Taximan - I'm impressed with your old analogue setup! Whilst there are challanges and complexity using software etc in the digital world, it's generally much easier than the analogue procedure you describe. I think you'll enjoy it!
     
  9. LicensedTaximan

    LicensedTaximan
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    Coming from you that is indeed a compliment.;)

    I had three s-vhs recorders two Mitsubishi's, a HS1000 and the monster B82 a real cracker, plus a Panasonic NV HS1000. Well time has passed and the two Mitsu's have since passed on but I still have the Panny. In fact is was with this machine that I transferred all my s-vhs footage onto dvd via the hd of my dvd recorder, it was with the Sony due to the fact that this was my first one.

    I now own as replacements for the s-vhs decks a Sony RDR-HXD710 and the Panasonic DMR-EX75. This is why I need to edit my future HDV-mini dv through the computer with a decent software application. The old Panasonic palmcorder, model number NV-S85, is still working (of sorts) but I don't want to use it anymore due to its (A) weight and size and (B) it's getting tempremental. It has hi-fi stereo sound and a few in house digital effects....wipe, strobe, cross fade to another scene, fade to and from black, a 10x optical zoom and a sensible 20x digital zoom (which I hardly ever used). It also has, wait for it....a snaphot record button which gives you a still image that lasts for about five seconds with sound, also an eyepiece that extends as well as angles, of course the latest jobbies now have a lcd swivel screen which I suppose makes up for that (although a prerequisite for me on the new model is an eyepiece). The Panny 85 has auto mode but there is a manual overide as well. Recently though bits have started to go wrong so its now had its day and that's apart from its sheer physical size....onwards and upwards.:thumbsup:
     
  10. senu

    senu
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    I was similarly impressed:D

    I remember though how in the early days of Digital , you had to have a dedicated capture card, breakout box, "shares" with Adobe or Matrox or Canopus and a specialist graphic card.
    If you didn't have a Monitor setup.. you were not yet ready to start
    Thankfully, a decent PC, software, a firewire card and cable and a DVD writer.. you are ready to go; HDD are so affordable , £50 gets you 350Gb!
    For music, a collection of Mp3s on your HDD goes a long way
    As Mark has hinted, you will enjoy it this way..:rotfl:
     
  11. LicensedTaximan

    LicensedTaximan
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    Ta very muchly, for one who isn't into semi pro video just effectivley holidays / family growing up stuff etc ets thanks for your comments.:smashin:
    I really am looking forward to moving on to the next stage of my family video-ing, disc is soooo much more convenient than videocasettes. Going from s-vhsc to mini dv, although still a tape based sytem, will be a space saving advantage apart from the technological advances in the camcorders themselves.
    By the way what makes of high quality mini dv tape would you recommend that I consider. I'm assuming that there is only one tape type for HDV as well as for the standard stuff, not that I would bother tapeing in standard def. I'm guessing its like using s-vhsc tapes but you could record standard vhs onto it as well by a flick of a switch / toggle on the video camera..
     
  12. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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    Any good DV tape will do - there is no difference between DV and "HDV tape", except that "HDV tape" is made to a higher spec and in theory makes dropouts less likely. This is important as a dropout on HDV can lose half a second of video, as opposed to DV where you would just lose a single frame (1/25th of a second).

    In practice most people don't have any issues with dropouts and a good DV tape (like Sony Premium). But if you are worried you can use Sony HDV tape (but it costs more).
     
  13. LicensedTaximan

    LicensedTaximan
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    Okay many thanks for that Mark, now what about editing software. On my computer it has as standard, as with many (millions) of other pcs, the Windows Movie Maker but i'm pretty sure to get something really good I need to purchase a third parties software. Without going to stratospheric amounts, in other words I don't wish to go past the £300 level upwards, what makes would you recommend incorporating DD 5.1. Thanking you in advance, Martin.;)
     
  14. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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    Regular members will be bored with me saying it.. but I use Sony Vegas and recommend it highly. Version 7 can edit HDV directly, it is very powerful including on the audio side. The full version is expensive (if you buy direct it will be around £300 once you add VAT and do the conversion).

    Generally I recommend the "Platinum Edition" which has 80% of the functionality for 20% of the cost... but full Vegas has more in terms of 5.1.
    (The Platinum Edition has 5.1 support, but the full version has "5.1 surround mixing including film-style panning". I read this to say that with the Platinum edition you could say import a 5.1 track from a 5.1 mic, but you can't control the mix on each channel).

    http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/products/vegasfamily.asp

    Other main players are Adobe (Premiere Pro and Premiere Elements), Ulead Video Studio, Avid/Pinnacle. I'm not sure of the level of 5.1 support in each version.
     
  15. senu

    senu
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    Just as an aside, with HDV you dont need to record as SD unless you specifically want to

    If you record as HDV, the camera can downconvert "on the fly" to SD for capture. This can then be edited as if you had recorded SD

    Similarly, you can record HDV, capture and edit as such, return the edited HDV footage to tape and still subsequently recapture on a PC as SD

    In both cases you still have your HDV "Master" on tape

    A downside to recording HDV ( especially if its not for you) is that only your camcorder or similar HDV camcorder can play it although as earlier mentioned the converse is not true
    A long-winded way of "giving" someone an SD copy of your HDV tape would then be to Capture to PC as SD (DV) and then print that back to a fresh tape from the PC

    As for DD 5.1.. Im less sure of true Software support although most recent software say they support it..

    I avoided mentioning Vegas ( on purpose :D ) as I couldn't do it as well as Mark ( couldn't resist that:cool: ) but FWIW it is Very worthy and I keep being surprised that is seems to be able to Edit HDV without the need for a PC with as much grunt as Say Adobe Premiere....

    Avid Liquid, Pinnacle Studio and Ulead VS do have DD 5.1.. at least in the way that Vegas does ( you can control the output on Channels but this precise control is more so with Avid Liquid 7)
    This is not a great selling point to me but it is there. In fact AL7 has a ( costly) pro breakout box with which you can do a real time preview of the different speakers output
     
  16. LicensedTaximan

    LicensedTaximan
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    Hmm this editing suite would just be in my budget if I give about 10% leeway. Is this behemoth avaliable via an e-tailer over here or through a bricks and mortar shop? By the way thanks to both of you for your (future) help.:thumbsup:

    Must go back to work tomorrow otherwise I won't be able to afford the mini dv tapes let alone anything else. I Have been resealing the front hard standing area with block paving sealent whilst the weather has been good, all done now.
     
  17. redsox_mark

    redsox_mark
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  18. senu

    senu
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    Slightly less, ( enough to stock up on tapes to be sure) but not by a great deal
    They were expecting new stock with the higher price ( it was nearer £300 2 weeks ago ) .there is no harm in giving them a call and asking them to "reserve" it at the old price if that is still possible.
    Certainly the trial is "free" and you lose nothing by giving it a go
     
  19. LicensedTaximan

    LicensedTaximan
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    Well I have to say that both of you have been very informative and quick with your replies, thank you.
    What you don't know about these subjects probably is not worth knowing about. I'll probably get my tapes (when I get whatever camcorder I purchase, probably the Canon HV20 unless some other goody comes out before the middle of July) through Bigpockets or SVP. In the mean time if you ever pop your noses into the AV section of these hallowed forums I hope I can be as helpfull to you as you both have been to me.:thumbsup::smashin:
     
  20. LicensedTaximan

    LicensedTaximan
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    I'm back again, it would appear that Bigpockets don't do an awfull lot of mini dv tapes and SVP don't do 'em at all. What e-tailors do you think would stock these products at a goodly price, that may well be my last question.......for now.:cool: ;):rolleyes:
     
  21. senu

    senu
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    Amazon (not marketplace) so check well to see whose is actually selling

    The tapes would be the Sony Premium Tapes and the offers are regular enough to stock up on

    Retailers in the Amazon marketplace are not always as competitive ( watch out for P& P charges which bump things up) but when Amazon is not doing offers they are well worth considering

    I tend to Buy ( and stock up) from Tape City Although they are e-tailers their "shop" is 5 min walk from me.
    As such I don't know how their shipping ( postage ) charges alter prices but they also market via Amazon
    In Short... vote with your pocket
     

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