Which one: Denon X4700, Arcam AVR10 or?

shmerls

Active Member
I was set on the Denon X4700 and then A/B’d against the Arcam AVR10. The Arcam was definitely warmer, “rounder” immersive. Apparently due to the ESS 9026PRO DAC.

I’ve read a lot about the Arcam AVR series and am concerned about the bugs owners talk about and topping out at 7.2, I’m not ready yet, but want to be able to hook up Atmos speakers at some point without needing a 2nd amp.

if the difference is indeed the DAC, can anyone recommend a 9.2 AVR with the same, similar or better DAC? Thanks.
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
The DAC is just one part of the puzzle so the rest of the components, engineering and implementation also need to be up to scratch.

If you really want those DAC's then I believe some of the Yamaha's include them.
 

shmerls

Active Member
Thanks Jase. I was just introduced to the existence of DACs while A/Bing the Arcam against a Marantz. While not new to being a techy in other areas, I'm drinking the water through a fire hose to catch up. Based on the salesman, I was lead to believe that I was hearing a better more musical DAC in the Arcam over the Marantz. But you make great sense and what I heard couldn't be just one component otherwise Dumble guitar amps wouldn't be fetching over $100,000 these days. Thanks for the help. I think my biggest problem is that it seems that I will need to spend way more than I thought initially and for me, this needs to be a purchase I can hold on to for a few years. So I'm going slow. Asking questions and really appreciate your input.
My quest continues.
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
Thanks Jase. I was just introduced to the existence of DACs while A/Bing the Arcam against a Marantz. While not new to being a techy in other areas, I'm drinking the water through a fire hose to catch up. Based on the salesman, I was lead to believe that I was hearing a better more musical DAC in the Arcam over the Marantz. But you make great sense and what I heard couldn't be just one component otherwise Dumble guitar amps wouldn't be fetching over $100,000 these days. Thanks for the help. I think my biggest problem is that it seems that I will need to spend way more than I thought initially and for me, this needs to be a purchase I can hold on to for a few years. So I'm going slow. Asking questions and really appreciate your input.
My quest continues.

If possible I would try to get a home demo of anything you're interested in buying. Only then will you know which is the best option.

Arcams have a reputation for being well suited for music. Marantz tend to sound better than Denons for music but that can be highly dependent on what speakers you're using and how things are set up.

Another option that might be worth considering is adding a decent Stereo integrated Amp with HT Bypass to an AVR. You could end up with both a musical system and one that is great with AV. Just depends which way you want to go really.

@gibbsy might be able to offer you some insight about an integrated amp connected to an AVR.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Ultimately a good AV amp coupled with an integrated stereo amp with HT by-pass can excide the cost of an Arcam or higher end AV amp. As you've noted with Arcam you would still need external amplification to expand on a seven speaker operation. An integrated amp would give you the option of just running that amp for stereo music and a quality amp is going to be as good, if not better in my opinion, that the stereo performance of AV amps such as Arcam.

It's easy to couple a stereo amp to a Denon, or other make, of AV amp. Simply connect the front left and right pre-outs to the stereo amp and EQ the amp into the system. Very easy to set up and use. You just have to look at what will be right for you and study the costs involved.

 

shmerls

Active Member
I bought the Marantz SR6015 but returned It as I realized I really should buck up and not get what I can afford; rather get what I want/need. See that, I'm a burgeoning audiophile!

At the time other Marantz' were sold out and then demo'd the Denon X4700H which was very good but then was shown the the Arcam AVR10 both through B&W 702 S2s and really heard a difference. But as I wrote earlier as much as I really like the Acram, the bugs and 7 vs 9 or possibly 13 speakers concerned me. So I was looking toward the X6700H or if I could swing it the X8500HA. Stunning how one can migrate up from a SR6015 so fast.

I have been noticing comments about have 2 amps, especially since I have a pair of 1981 JBL 4311 studio monitors, which I've never abused since I've been apartments much of the time. Those days are over, hence the HT rabbit hole.

Your comment brought the 2 amps to my forefront and if you think it's OK to contact @gibbsy without being presumptuous. That would be great, as this would be a new chapter.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
I run a Denon X6500 and Rega Elicit-R stereo amp. In UK currency the combination of X6700 and the Rega would now set you back around £4000. A new Denon X8500 would cost slightly less than that. You would not need an extra external amplification for a full 13 speaker set up with the X8500.

An Arcam AVR30 would set you back another grand plus you would need external amps to match the Denon's abilities. Starting to get expensive which ever way you look at it. Then you have to consider the speakers to compliment such an outlay on amplification.

I did, several years ago, consider Arcam but I was more put off by the complexities of getting a good Dirac set up as I am a buffon when it comes to anything to do with software. I was also somewhat put off by the number of bugs in the FM range at the time. Hence I opted for a Denon/Rega combination. I'll not change from that now as I really rather do love my Rega.
 

shmerls

Active Member
Ultimately a good AV amp coupled with an integrated stereo amp with HT by-pass can excide the cost of an Arcam or higher end AV amp. As you've noted with Arcam you would still need external amplification to expand on a seven speaker operation. An integrated amp would give you the option of just running that amp for stereo music and a quality amp is going to be as good, if not better in my opinion, that the stereo performance of AV amps such as Arcam.

It's easy to couple a stereo amp to a Denon, or other make, of AV amp. Simply connect the front left and right pre-outs to the stereo amp and EQ the amp into the system. Very easy to set up and use. You just have to look at what will be right for you and study the costs involved.

Gibbsy thanks for this input. I'm ready to learn more as this approach is new. So the fronts are powered by a stereo amp, and then the center, surrounds and Atmos (and TV) by the AVR?

Do you EQ by ear? Does AVR speaker calibration include EQ? If so can it be used to calibrate the fronts when run by a different amp? Seems unlikely, but...
 

gibbsy

Moderator
The stereo amp will drive the front left and right. Connected by the Denon's (for argument's sake) you can still run Audyssey to EQ the speakers output into the system. Because the front left and right and now just connected to the stereo amp then both Denon and stereo amp need to be fired up for listening to any film or TV content.

For music then all of your music sources need to be connected directly to the stereo amp. When listening to stereo music then it's just the stereo amp that is fired up. Basically you have two separate systems using the same front speakers. The benefit to the surround sound is that the power that is saved by using the stereo amp is then shared around the remaining connected speakers making life easier for the Denon.

I believe that the X6700 and X8500 have the ability to turn off the pre-amps of the front left and right channels further enhancing the audio ability of a system running external amps.

You can also get stereo amps with their own EQ systems on board like Lyngdorf. That gives you the ability not only to run Audyssey but also Lyngdorf's excellent Room Perfect. Again this is easy to do with the Denon as you run that amp by-passing Audyssey for the front left and right and letting Room Perfect do it's magic.

My Rega, being a pure analogue amp, doesn't have any EQ on board.
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
I believe that the X6700 and X8500 have the ability to turn off the pre-amps of the front left and right channels further enhancing the audio ability of a system running external amps.

Both have Pre-Amp Modes but that will affect ALL the channels. Where the X8500 scores is it also has a Custom Mode where you can switch off whichever amp channel you want.

Whilst the X6700 doesn't have a proper Custom Mode you can switch off the FL and FR amps by going into the Amp Assign menu and setting the Pre-Out option to Fronts.

The above also works for quite a few of the older Denon and Marantz models that have that option.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Whilst the X6700 doesn't have a proper Custom Mode you can switch off the FL and FR amps by going into the Amp Assign menu and setting the Pre-Out option to Fronts.
Unfortunately my X6500 doesn't have this option which is a shame.
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
Unfortunately my X6500 doesn't have this option which is a shame.

Is a bit. My SR7010 didn't have it but my SR7012 does. Whether we can actually hear the difference is probably debatable though! :laugh:
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Is a bit. My SR7010 didn't have it but my SR7012 does. Whether we can actually hear the difference is probably debatable though! :laugh:
The X6500 is going to be here for a good few years more. Does it's job well with film and TV. I wouldn't want to buy a new amp at the moment because of the scary prices. £2399 for the X6700! I only paid £1395 for the X6500 at the beginning of last year.
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
The X6500 is going to be here for a good few years more. Does it's job well with film and TV. I wouldn't want to buy a new amp at the moment because of the scary prices. £2399 for the X6700! I only paid £1395 for the X6500 at the beginning of last year.

AV kit has become very expensive this year. Like you, I paid a lot less for my Marantz compared to it's newer version. I'll be waiting for some price drops before I change again.
 

shmerls

Active Member
This is great conversation. I can't afford the X8500HA, looking more at the X4700H. So turntable, CD, cassette tape (kidding) go into t he amp. DVD into AVR?

Then there are my JBL 4311B monitors where are excellent music speakers. Is it possible: when watching a movie to have KEFs (for argument) getting the audio powered by the amp, and if I select my CD player, the AVR is off, amp on and now the audio comes thru the JBLs. Is it remotely (no pun) possible to manage something like this thru a remote(s)?

Great link to Audiophile.No. Thanks Gibbsy
 

Jase

Distinguished Member
This is great conversation. I can't afford the X8500HA, looking more at the X4700H. So turntable, CD, cassette tape (kidding) go into t he amp. DVD into AVR?

Then there are my JBL 4311B monitors where are excellent music speakers. Is it possible: when watching a movie to have KEFs (for argument) getting the audio powered by the amp, and if I select my CD player, the AVR is off, amp on and now the audio comes thru the JBLs. Is it remotely (no pun) possible to manage something like this thru a remote(s)?

Great link to Audiophile.No. Thanks Gibbsy

Should be possible to do all that remotely. @gibbsy will hopefully confirm how his setup works in that respect.
 

gibbsy

Moderator
This is great conversation. I can't afford the X8500HA, looking more at the X4700H. So turntable, CD, cassette tape (kidding) go into t he amp. DVD into AVR?

Then there are my JBL 4311B monitors where are excellent music speakers. Is it possible: when watching a movie to have KEFs (for argument) getting the audio powered by the amp, and if I select my CD player, the AVR is off, amp on and now the audio comes thru the JBLs. Is it remotely (no pun) possible to manage something like this thru a remote(s)?

Great link to Audiophile.No. Thanks Gibbsy
Connections would be DVD player to AV amp. All music sources to the stereo amp.

The JBLs would need a stereo amp itself that had pre-outs and they would be permanent connections to the stereo amp AV amp>Stereo amp>JBLs. Depends on the stereo as far as remotely changing and you would have to check the stereo amps specs. It would be impossible with my Rega as you can't even turn it on with it's own remote, not unknown with British companies.
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
Unfortunately my X6500 doesn't have this option which is a shame.

Isn't that weird? Because it has enough amps to do 11 channels, it doesn't offer that same feature that the x4x00 series (and some x3x00) do, which have less amps, so allow the fronts or height 2 as pre out with internal amp disconnected.

An oversight by Denon IMO.

Couldn't agree with you more on the cost of new AVRs!
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Isn't that weird? Because it has enough amps to do 11 channels, it doesn't offer that same feature that the x4x00 series (and some x3x00) do, which have less amps, so allow the fronts or height 2 as pre out with internal amp disconnected.

An oversight by Denon IMO.

Couldn't agree with you more on the cost of new AVRs!
If was introduced for the X6XXX series of amps. There never was an X6600 model, hence the gap in feature upgrades on that particular tier.
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
Well, it came into the 3000 series on the 3600. But my x4400 can be height 2 or front pre-outs when set in 11.1 and internal amps disconnected - so it was earlier for the 4000 series.

Picturing Denon Design Engineering as different teams on each series and not speaking to each other enough! Reminds me some of the Engineering teams I've worked in!
 

gibbsy

Moderator
Well, it came into the 3000 series on the 3600. But my x4400 can be height 2 or front pre-outs when set in 11.1 and internal amps disconnected - so it was earlier for the 4000 series.

Picturing Denon Design Engineering as different teams on each series and not speaking to each other enough! Reminds me some of the Engineering teams I've worked in!
Is it this on the X4400.

Front Speaker​


Set the front speaker A/B to use for every sound mode.
A
(Default):
Front speaker A is used.
B :Front speaker B is used.
A+B :Both front speakers A and B are used.

This can be set when “Assign Mode” is set to “7.1ch + Front B”. link
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
No. If you assign 11.1 channels, it shows in the manual that HEIGHT 2 connection needs to be on pre-outs (those internal amps are disconnected).

But the manual doesn't show you that, just like with the x3600, x3700, x4500, x4700 and x6700 (and maybe others I don't know), you can choose whether you want the HEIGHT 2 or FRONT as the pre-outs (with internal amps disconnected).

Slightly bizarre in my case, as the only internal amps I'm using are the fronts and the rest are from pre-outs.
 

SeanBrothers

Active Member
I think this is simply a case of not enough amplified channels for processed channels. None of the amps are turned off but rather re-assigned when using the full complement of processed channels.

At least, that's the situation on my x3700.
 

Dobbyisfree

Well-known Member
I think this is simply a case of not enough amplified channels for processed channels. None of the amps are turned off but rather re-assigned when using the full complement of processed channels.

At least, that's the situation on my x3700.

Yes. But they are disconnected and therefore having less affect on the pre-out signal for that channel. I believe that when Amir has tested such models, he has the fronts set to pre-outs in the 11.1 mode.
 

SeanBrothers

Active Member
Ah... So because the 6XXX series amplifies as many channels as it processes, it "loses" this feature. That is a funny quirk.

I admit that the fact that you could choose to amplify the fronts was part of the reason I chose a Denon. Some other amplifiers would only allow other channels to be switched out, which I thought was odd when the fronts seemed like most likely choice people would want.
 

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