Which MiniDV camcorder to choose?

jcalla

Standard Member
Hello all,
I am looking to buy a MiniDV camcorder to use for family holidays and house parties etc. After doing some research today I would like one with the following qualities:

- Good picture quality in bright and low-light situations with a useful nightmode (I appreciate the quality will not be great, but as long as it is viewable that's fine).
- DV-I out so that videos can be moved onto my PC to be edited, converted and compressed into smaller file sizes and then placed on DVD if desired.
- 20k optical zoom or greater.
- Widescreen 16:9 mode.

My price range is budget at a maximum of £150 (heck I'm a student what can one expect? :D) and after much consideration I have filtered through the many possibilities to leave two cams to choose from:

1) JVC GR D720EK (£130)
2) Canon MD101 (£149)

Cams filtered out:
1) Samsung VP-D371W/XEU (Poor quality reports in reviews & forums)
2) Samsung VP-D372WH (Poor quality reports in reviews & forums)
3) Panasonic NV-GS60 (Nice cam, but lacks widescreen unfortunately)

The main difference now is that the JVC has an optical zoom of 28x whilst the Canon goes two better at 30x. I don't think this would have a very significant difference on performance of the two and is not a deal-breaker for the JVC, but would just be a nice little bonus should I go with the Canon.

I have hyperlinked the two remaining camcorder names to their respective official product specs pages and I hope that some of you more tech-savvy people can take a look at the two pages and maybe recommend which one seems to be the better one of the two and why.

Below are links for to some reviews of both cams:

JVC Review 1: Tech.co.uk
JVC User Review: Amazon.co.uk (scroll down)

Canon Review 1: Pcpro.co.uk
Canon User Reviews 1: Ciao.co.uk
Canon User Reviews 2: Amazon.co.uk (scroll down)

As you can see they are both rated pretty well and from the images I would say the Canon is better aesthetically - not that that matters all so much though. The Ciao Canon reviewer is wrong about the lack of a DV-I output which is listed on the official specs link I posted earlier and despite that his review is great.

My only concern is the reported problem on one of the Amazon reviews 'you will hear the sound of the tape recording' and I wonder if this is the thing which means I should go for the JVC. Or would the same problem likely occur with the JVC and would it make no big difference?

I could really use some helping deciding between the two, because as you can see there is not much between them and I don't have the personal experience of either item or the technical expertise to look at the specs and choose which is the best.

I'd really appreciate any advice from people anybody here, maybe you have personal experience of one of the cams or are technically-savvy and thus can offer me some guidance on which model seems to have superior specs/features. Thanks in advance to anybody who takes the time to offer me their advice!

Kind Regards,
John
 

jetinder

Active Member
I had the samsung VP-D375w (which is a higher spec version of the 371) but uses the same autofocus etc.

To cut a long story short, its a load of kak with very grainy sand paper type images and kak auto focus.

Build qaulity is very bad and the camcorder wont last 2 months let alone 2 years.

I have the JVC GRD 770 which has a x34 zoom but uses the same autofocus etc as 720.

The picture quality and build is first class with no sandpaper effect, so interms of that the GRD720 is a bargain.
 

jcalla

Standard Member
Thanks for your help jetinder, I have updated the original post to reflect this as after hearing the same thing from another source the Samsung is no longer a good option (doesn't stand up compared to my last two options).
 

rhubarbe

Well-known Member
I don't know anything at all about cams at that end of the market but I do know that a high optical zoom is just possible as a result of the cam having a very small sensor. If you look at expensive consumer camcorders they are always 10x or 12x zoom, and this is due to their having large sensors. Since image quality is positively correlated with sensor size i should look for models with the lowest power optical zoom you can find.

Ignore digital zoom entirely, of course.

The image stabilisation of these huge zoom cams isn't going to be up to much at 28 and 30x zoom, is it, surely?
 

jcalla

Standard Member
Thanks for the response rhubarbe. Unfortunately in my budget price range all of the cams have a sensor size of 1/6" which isn't great I know but what can I expect for ~£150. The two listed above seem to be the best available to me and I just need to try and decide between the two.

In terms of the specs of the two cams, they seem to be very similar, I have found what seems to be more extensive spec lists for each item on another the links to which are as follows:

Canon MD101 Specs
JVC GR D720 Specs

I'm of course no technical expert but from comparing those two lists the significant differences between the two seem to be:

1) The Canon has a colour viewfinder, whereas the JVC is listed as only supporting 'Black and White'.
2) The JVC seems to have better shutter times at 1/4000 sec maximum and 1/50 sec minimum, whilst the Canon has 1/2000 sec maximum and 1/6 sec minimum.
3) The Canon has 540 Kpix 'Effective Video Resolution' whilst the JVC has 400 Kpix.

I am really not sure if there are any significant differences, so hopefully you (or any other tech-savvy viewer) can point them out if there are. I also am not sure how the above differences weight in favour or against either camera, and thus I would really appreciate some explanation as to which you would go for personally if you were having to choose between the two mentioned cams.

The Canon is a little bit smaller and better looking, but that is nothing major and wouldn't stop me going with the JVC if it is better technically. Here are some pics of each model:

JVR GR D720 Image 1
JVR GR D720 Image 2

Canon MD101 Image 1
Canon MD101 Image 2

If all things are equal I'd go with the Canon, but then the fact that in one of the reviews above they report a noiser tape motor being heard on the mic really puts me off. How bad would this actually be when watching stuff back? I mean is this a very minor thing which will only be audible if you listen hard so no major problem or what? Is it common to find this problem in other budget models and would it be an issue with the JVC?
 

jetinder

Active Member
Goto Comet and ask them for a demo of both.

On my JVC after plugged it in to the tv i havent heard of tape noise through the tv speakers.
 

jcalla

Standard Member
@Jetinder: I think you will pleased to see which camera I have bought. After searching around earlier today I found the GR D760 on ebay (new unwanted gift from genuine seller) for £156 delivered:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180145938900&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=008

Considering I was having real difficulty choosing between the two aforementioned cams and that this one has more features and comes with a remote control (allowing me to get into the frame, literally lol) I decided to snap it up whilst I could (cheapest £190 elsewhere).

It will arrive by recorded delivery with insurance on Monday, so I am looking forward to receiving it and will let you know what it's like when it comes. Maybe you can tell me some more about your cam, as mine is just one notch below yours it seems? :)

Thanks for all of your advice, and that goes to everybody who responded! You were a great help! :)

Best wishes,
John
 

jetinder

Active Member
Hi John

Nice one mate, hope you enjoy it :)

For £150 + 1 year warranty the GRD 760 is a bargain, on e-bay get a spare battery for it for another £12
:-
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/za204-Battery...yZ140024QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

As the battery which comes with GRD760 and GRD770 only lasts for around an hour.

The one on ebay is an after market version but will last for 3 hrs, i ordered that battery yesterday and should be with me in the next few weeks.

JVCs orginal battery costs around £90, ok even if the e-bay one doesnt last for more than 1 year i would have only lost around £12, where as if the JVC battery went bad after 1 year I would have lost £90.

As with any camcorder you'll need a camera bag, in the shops these cost around £20 or more on e-bay you can pick one of them up brand new for around £10.

The GRD770 i got is 1 bit better but the only "better" thing about mine is that i have DV in and DV out, the GRD760 has only DV out but the GRD760 is UK spec camcorder where as mine (GRD 770) is German spec which does work 100% on UK tvs.

Others on here praise the Canon, Panasonic and Sony minidvs, only reason i dont and only reason why i bought the JVC was because the video i saw on the JVC wasnt as grainy as on others, in most areas it was better than all the others as i played the JVC video on my 42 inch plasma, even in low light the video wasnt grainy.

If the video was bad a 42 inch tv will clearly show that.

With the GRD760 just leave the camera in auto mode and enjoy it, when you get more confident read the manual more to tweak other bits of the camcorder in manual mode.

On ebay buy a minidv tape cleaner as sooner or later you will need it, on ebay you can pick up 4-5 minidv tapes for around £10-£15.

I need to go to London use it so i can get some interesting touristy video as where i live isnt touristy or interesting at all.

Bonfire night and New years eve should be good as the camcorder will see fireworks, where as SLR cameras dont realy show fire works they just show streams of light.
 

rhubarbe

Well-known Member
If you are going to film freworks do bear in mind that you will ideally need to set the camcorder to manual focus, or if it doesn't have one to "fireworks" preset.

If you don't, what happens is that as the mortar (for example) explodes the camcorder will start to focus on the blobs of light, and just as it manages to focus the lights all go out. Then, the next mortar explodes and the whole focussing begins again. When you come to watch it the whole lot is out of focus apart from Roman Candles and suchlike that keep going.

This year I'll get it right!
 

jcalla

Standard Member
Hi again mate,

The camera arrived today, I don't think the sender was aware that Royal Mail 'next day delivery' includes Satardays! :D I've just registered the warranty and that all went fine.

Camera looks brand new. Think the guy has either bought it or as he said received it as a present only to decide that he prefers his digital camera and £150 in his pocket (the first part was his words, the money thing is me surmising ^^).

With regard to the tapes, I already ordered some from Amazon, I ordered the Sony tapes as I thought I was going to go for a Sony model at the time. Will I have any performance loss vs using the JVC tapes or should I be fine? I got 10 from amazon themselves for just £14.22 delivered, which isn't bad at all I am sure you will agree (cheaper than any 10 packs on ebay too!).

I was looking to get a backup battery, but was going to leave that until later due to the price, but £12.80 is a really nice price. Have you done your research into the product and seller to ensure it isn't a dud and works fine? If so I think I will join you in purchasing one of those to take away with me.

Also just been looking for a camera bag. Not sure which one to go with though for this camera? Maybe you could help me find a few cheap options and I'll choose one of those? Prefer not to pay the premium rates for the carry bags on the JVC official site lol!

I realise that mine doesn't have a DV out but it does have a USB port. I take it that this USB port cannot be used to send video back to the camera? If that is the case, then what is it use? I'm pleased that I do have the UK model given the info about TV compatibility, as if there were problems with that I would have been very disappointed.

From reading reviews of the product it does seem very good and speaking to you, as somebody who owns essentially the same model, made my decision very easy. I am just looking forward to the tapes arriving and having some playtime with it before I go away! :D

Also how will I know when I need to use a tape cleaner? This is my first cam and all and I've only used DVD players and not the old VHS so not really all too familiar with why and when to do this sort of stuff.

John
 

senu

Distinguished Member
With regard to the tapes, I already ordered some from Amazon, I ordered the Sony tapes as I thought I was going to go for a Sony model at the time. Will I have any performance loss vs using the JVC tapes or should I be fine?
You should be fine but dont start with them and then change brands later
I realise that mine doesn't have a DV out but it does have a USB port. I take it that this USB port cannot be used to send video back to the camera? If that is the case, then what is it use? I'm pleased that I do have the UK model given the info about TV compatibility, as if there were problems with that I would have been very disappointed.
A MiniDV camcorder without firewire:confused: It does have firewire.. All MiniDV camcorders do at least for DV out.Whether USB or DV tranfering back to the camera is a hardware feature,
USB in these models is mostly for transferring stills from a card or smaller format video files. It also enables you use it as a webcam
USB in HDD models can be used to transfer video to and from the camcorder. With only one exception ( a New JVC Hi Def HDD model), HDD models dont need or have firewire
Also how will I know when I need to use a tape cleaner?
John
You will:D...it shouldn't be often though..the recordings will satrat having specks and breakup
 

jcalla

Standard Member
@senu: Thanks for the response and advice mate.

With regard to the tapes, it seems that the Sony tapes are of good quality (excellent reviews on amazon) and those prices are the cheapest on the net and the product also seems to be the most available around the net so I'll go with and stick with them. Plus I can get a firewire cable and with supersaver that makes the purchase just £0.80 more than the tapes alone including delivery!

I thought my cam only had DV-out, but from scanning some text earlier I think it may well have both so the DV cable for what will essentially be just 80 pence is an absolute bargain for speedier transfers to and from my PC (versus USB).

The main issue now is buying a memory card for the photos function of the cam. In the manual it says both SD and MMC are compatible and having done a bit of reading it seems that the SD format is better than MMC so I should be looking to get a SD memory card. It does say in the manual and is apparent from reading around reviews that certain models do not work with this (and other cams) so I wonder what I need to be looking for to ensure compatibility with my camcorder?

I am also wondering if my cam would have a limit to the size of SD card it would allow, as 1-4GB seem to be in my priace range and I would certainly opt for the higher capacity for a little more if its compatible. Finally how many photos can I expect to get on a 1GB card (I can work out the rest from there and choose the card size which suites my needs)? I found this card which seems nice at 4GB, 150x:

Adata 4GB SD Card

Thanks in advance to anybody that is able to offer me some advice in regard to memory cards! :D
 

rhubarbe

Well-known Member
A 625 kilopixel sensor? And a 4GB SD card? I shouldn't bother. It's about 5,000 pics, isn't it?

I should get a 1GB card: let's face it, your'e supposed to be videoing!! :lesson:
 

jcalla

Standard Member
@rhubarbe: Hehe, well I have no idea how many photos this things will fit. So you're saying that 1GB will fit about 1250 photos of the highest quality on my cam? I this true definite figures or what? I was expecting a lot less per GB when in highest quality mode?

I am also unsure as to whether or not I need a Standard SD card (seem to run at 50x) or if my cam is compatible with the seemingly faster SDHC (seem to run at 1338-150x) cards? Once I find out which card type is compatible with my cameraand have it confirmed how many pics per GB (in highest quality mode) I will get from my camcorder I can then go ahead and purchase a card alongside with some other camcorder accessories I need. So if somebody can help me with this I will be very happy! Anyone? :)

Finally on this speclist for my camera it states that the 'Camcorder Effective Still Resolution' is '0.4 Megapixel' what does this mean? Which level of digital camera does my camcorder equate to in this guide? Is it really just 0.4 Megapixels? So absolutely useless for photos and worse than even the cheapest digital cameras!?
 

rhubarbe

Well-known Member
I have a 10MP Ricoh GX100. I have it set to take 1280 x 960 images (mainly for eBay items due to its having a very very wide angle lens). Now, 1280 x 960, if you do the maths is 1228800 pixels, or about 1.2 megapixels. I have a 2GB SD card in it and I can get nearly 2,000 shots at 1280 x 960.

You don't need fast cards for your cam (you might for very expensive DSLRs but you don't for yours) and you'd be wasting your money buying SDHC cards for reasons mentioned above.

Just get a 1GB normal SD card. You should be able to get one for about six quid.

EDIT, yes, in reality it's quite useless for anything other than small snaps to view on a PC.
 

jcalla

Standard Member
Well given the detail of just how poor a stills performer MDV cams tend to be I think I will give the memory for the cam a miss and just buy some for my Sony Ericsson k800i which has far superior photo facilities and I will probably take it for roaming call services anyway ^^
 

jetinder

Active Member
Glad you got it :)

With regard to the tapes, I already ordered some from Amazon, I ordered the Sony tapes as I thought I was going to go for a Sony model at the time. Will I have any performance loss vs using the JVC tapes or should I be fine? I got 10 from amazon themselves for just £14.22 delivered, which isn't bad at all I am sure you will agree (cheaper than any 10 packs on ebay too!).

It doesnt matter as Sony, Panasonic and JVC are top spec tapes made by them for camcorders.

If your happy with Sony then stick with it.

Personnaly i dont care what brand out of the above 3 i use as long as its a good quality i aint worried.

I was looking to get a backup battery, but was going to leave that until later due to the price, but £12.80 is a really nice price. Have you done your research into the product and seller to ensure it isn't a dud and works fine? If so I think I will join you in purchasing one of those to take away with me.

I just ordered it on e-bay the 823 is the longest lasting battery for the JVC GRD760 and 770 as this thing will last for around 3-4 hrs as opposed to 1 hr for one which came with it.

I'm waiting for it to come, the GRD770 is my first camcorder so like you I'm still learning about it but the feed back which the seller has is good so his battery should be ok.

It should last a long time but even if it doesnt last for more than one year I'll have 1 years use, after that i can buy another one and £12 on battery is cheaper than spending £90 on a pukka JVC one.

Also just been looking for a camera bag. Not sure which one to go with though for this camera? Maybe you could help me find a few cheap options and I'll choose one of those? Prefer not to pay the premium rates for the carry bags on the JVC official site lol!

On e-bay type in camcorder bag and you'll see loads but see the following
:-
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Sony-Shoulder...ryZ64342QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Thats the type you want as that will hold the camcorder + charger + leads + spare tapes etc all in one bag.

I orderd that bag 3 weeks ago, i should have it soon.

From reading reviews of the product it does seem very good and speaking to you, as somebody who owns essentially the same model, made my decision very easy. I am just looking forward to the tapes arriving and having some playtime with it before I go away! :D

Glad to be of help :)
 

jetinder

Active Member
I thought my cam only had DV-out, but from scanning some text earlier I think it may well have both so the DV cable for what will essentially be just 80 pence is an absolute bargain for speedier transfers to and from my PC (versus USB).

The Manual you have is for both the GRD760 and GRD770.

The GRD760 has DV-out but not DV-in, it doesnt matter any way as your going to take movies, transfer them on DVD via your PC and editting software, so you dont need DVD-IN unless your going to edit stuff on your PC and then tranfere it back to the camcorder which i wont ever do as i want to put it all on to DVD after editting it.

80p for cable is great news :)

The main issue now is buying a memory card for the photos function of the cam. In the manual it says both SD and MMC are compatible and having done a bit of reading it seems that the SD format is better than MMC so I should be looking to get a SD memory card. It does say in the manual and is apparent from reading around reviews that certain models do not work with this (and other cams) so I wonder what I need to be looking for to ensure compatibility with my camcorder?

I am also wondering if my cam would have a limit to the size of SD card it would allow, as 1-4GB seem to be in my priace range and I would certainly opt for the higher capacity for a little more if its compatible. Finally how many photos can I expect to get on a 1GB card (I can work out the rest from there and choose the card size which suites my needs)? I found this card which seems nice at 4GB, 150x:

Adata 4GB SD Card

Thanks in advance to anybody that is able to offer me some advice in regard to memory cards! :D

I have a 2gb kingston SD card with adaptor to plug it in to my SB port.
:-
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4IN1-USB-MEMO...ryZ51082QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Thats great way to transfer photos over with out hooking the camcorder to the PC, but be warned like all camcorder with 640 pixels the photos on the GRD760 and 770 etc are not that good quality as they are not 1 meg pixel or more, so don't use the camcorder as a camera to get those once in a life time photos.

Best thing is to take a camera with you, Due to poor quality of photos I don't use the SD card in my GRD770, i take my camera with me as well.

I use the camcorder for taking movies and the camera to freeze moments in time.

I now use the SD card + adaptor as a flash drive to store anything i want from my PC on it, this is better and faster than carrying bulky DVD -RWs with me and with SD cards getting bigger soon i'll be able use the same adaptor with 4gb or more storage :)

Unlike a flash drive where you cant take the memory out and keep it some where safe, with SD cards + adaptor if you want to keep stuff, you buy a new SD card and store the old card safely.
 

senu

Distinguished Member
It doesnt matter as Sony, Panasonic and JVC are top spec tapes made by them for camcorders.
If your happy with Sony then stick with it.
Personnaly i dont care what brand out of the above 3 i use as long as its a good quality i aint worried.
Glad to be of help :)

As I implied in my post, the brands are all reputable but assuming that they are "equal" then buying one brand today and another tomorrow can prove to be a costly mistake.
The general advice is to buy one brand and stick to it. If you must use more than one brand ( say in an emergency when you run out), It is perhaps reasonable to assume that there are Sony and Non-Sony brands and endeavour to stick with one.
Apparently those who hire out camcorders don't think it is a problem but then they have insurance ( or other resources) for fixing camcorder faults should they occur which many of us do not
 

rhubarbe

Well-known Member
Well given the detail of just how poor a stills performer MDV cams tend to be I think I will give the memory for the cam a miss and just buy some for my Sony Ericsson k800i which has far superior photo facilities and I will probably take it for roaming call services anyway ^^
They aren't all bad, you know. The HDR-HC7 is reckoned to be quite good but then it is a £700 camcorder.

The Canon HV10 I just bought isn't bad either, and you can pick them up for about £400 new and sealed on eBay. HDV, too. :)

What you say about roaming intrigues me, too. I didn't thiknk that poeple did roaming any more, do they?
 

jcalla

Standard Member
Thanks again for all your responses. I'm all but set now, just waiting and hoping certain items arrive by next Wednesday when I will be heading off for sun, sand and alcohol in Icemeler, Turkey with my new toy! :D

I've went with the Sony tapes as they seem to be most widely available and are really cheap on Amazon (who seem to have been supplying them for a while from the reviews for them on their site). I've also bought a Sony Head Cleaning Tape for £4 delivered on ebay, which should be arriving soon also.

The spare battery jetinder recommended has also been ordered after I checked the seller's feedback which was good for the battery and also in general. Just hoping that the case arrives in time, I ordered one on ebay but tried to have the seller amend the order to a slightly larger case. Let's just hope he does send the larger cream one, he did respond to my request but wasn't the most conclusive of responses so I guess we'll just wait and see. For that price though one can't complain! If it turns out to be small I could always buy another one later but hopefully that won't be the case as I only want to fit the cam, a spare battery and tape in there?

With regards to photos, I have just bought 1GB Mini M2 Memory for my K800i which will make it into a decent digital camera with its 3.2MP camera and Xenon flash. I can finally put to use the main special feature of the phone on this holiday... ^^
 

jetinder

Active Member
Got the camcorder bag today, its well made from tough heavy duty nylon fabric and stitching it will last.

The GRD770 + charger lead + plug + 5 Minidv tapes + manual + AV lead + remote control all fit in the bag but its a tight squeeze wish they'd made it 2 inches wider and longer.

For £7 which i paid for its not bad but you cant fit anything else in to it so going on holiday you'd have to leave the charger lead + plug in the hotel room to allow you to store 10 spare minidv tapes in the bag so you could video 10hrs of footage, then go back to the hotel room charge the battery up and next day start again with 10 more minidv tapes put in the bag.
 

gritstone

Standard Member
@Jetinder: I think you will pleased to see which camera I have bought. After searching around earlier today I found the GR D760 on ebay (new unwanted gift from genuine seller) for £156 delivered:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=180145938900&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=008

<snip>
John

Good for you :)
There's so much emphasis on getting the latest kit these days that it's spawned a huge second hand market, and eBay is a great place to pick up a sensible bargain.

I was in a similar position to you a couple of months ago... I've bought two camcorders via eBay, and very pleased I've been with both of them. One's a Sanyo Xacti C6, which I use for (during) outdoor pursuits, and the other is a Canon MVX450, which is my 'holiday' and higher quality capture device (just back from a holiday in Spain, where I got some great shots).

Have fun.
 

jetinder

Active Member
Yesterday got the 3rd party JVC 823 battery for my camcorder
:-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/za204-Battery...yZ140024QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

The battery works fine and for &#163;12-ish its ok, it is designed to last for 3 1/2 hrs.

Only down side from the camcorder you can't tell how much battery life you have left. According to the instructions when the yellow light on the battery starts flashing then you have 10 mins life left, so to be on the safe side if you go any where charge the battery up to make sure you have full 3 1/2 hrs of power + take the original battery which came with the camcorder as a backup.

You have to plug the supplied lead from the &#163;12 battery to the camcorder's power socket so the camcorder "thinks" its using a real JVC battery and not a 3rd party.

That lead is a bit short and could become stretched. Its location on the back of the battery isnt that well designed as it should have been on the side of the battery or better still they should have licensed the Data Battery technology from JVC to avoid the use of this lead.

So far its a good battery for the money and is a good work horse but its a huge pity that this battery hasnt got the battery life indicator and design of JVCs original 823, the JVC 823 is sold at rip off prices (around &#163;80-&#163;100 = 2/3rd the price of the camcorder) if that was battery was around &#163;30 then i would have got that instead.

Better start saving for that battery.
 

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