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Which is the best PJ - Sony VPL VW11HT or a SimHT200?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by Paulherb, Jan 11, 2002.

  1. Paulherb

    Paulherb
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    I was was just wondering does the DLP 800x600 picture look better/sharper etc than the 1368 x 768(what ever it is) of the Sony LCD?

    Any help would be most welcome!

    Cheers

    Paulh.
     
  2. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    Paul,
    The Sony will "look" sharper because the chicken wire effect caused by the wider gaps between pixels creates an artificially enhanced effect. The DLP will look smoother because of the smaller pixel gaps, this can be mistaken for softness.

    If you look at both projectors displaying a resolution test pattern you should find very little difference in the level of detail each can resolve.

    Regards
     
  3. Paulherb

    Paulherb
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    Cheers

    Chris


    Paulh.
     
  4. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    Er

    Also view them with a video picture just in case you want to watch films as well.

    Both projectors produce fine images,
    View as many different projectors as you can using the same test disk (yours)

    Once you have made your chioce never, but never look at another projector demo until you have suffecient funds to buy another there is always the magic box just coming.
     
  5. LV426

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    At a viewing distance of about 1.5x the screen width, the pixels on the Sony are so small that you can't see them, nor the chicken wire. You have to be much nearer to be able to discern individual pixels.
     
  6. KarlRobinson

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    I had a Sony on loan for a weekend and put it through it's paces.
    I found colour and resolution very good but the greatest let down was the quality of the blacks. They were almost grey, apart from that it's a fine machine.
     
  7. WSquared

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    Also keep in mind that the HT200 exhibits the rainbow effect that the first gen(slower colors-wheel rpm) DLPs suffer from quite a bit. Also, you will definately want a good external de-interlacer(Iscan pro) or a good prog scan DVD player(denon 2800, arcam fmj27, or skyworth 1050p).
    I personally think you can get away with the internal de-interlacing of the 11HT if you aren't to picky. Even so, I am planning on getting a player with Farougda/Silicon Image NTSC & PAL deinterlacing.

    I am biased because I'm a happy 11HT owner. But, I saw the HT200 on several occasions with different screens before buying.
     
  8. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    Nigel is a man who loves his Sony VW10 with a passion.
    Yes, the pixels are very small, but we were talking about pixel gaps, not the size of the pixels. It is the gaps that make the chicken wire effect - which is what you see.

    Regards
     
  9. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Can I just add that the HT200DM doesn't suffer the rainbowing of the HT200 and that colour accuracy is in another league with the SIM2's compared to the Sony...but the Sony does have much better de-interlacing.

    Gordon
     
  10. lmccauley

    lmccauley
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    Can I just say that the HT200DM doesn't suffer the rainbowing of the HT200 as much.

    OK, I'm being really picky here, but I did see rainbow once during the demo of the HT200DM at The Event (as opposed to every 5-10 seconds with the non-DM HT250).

    Actually, I can see the rainbow effect during power-point presentations at work (although I do have to try hard - hey, I was bored during a 2.5 hour presentation!).

    All joking and nit-picking aside, though, the rainbow effect would stop me purchasing a HT200, but not a HT200DM.

    Cheers,
    Liam
     
  11. Paulherb

    Paulherb
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    Thanks for Advice Gents

    Cheers


    Paulh.
     
  12. nigel_williams

    nigel_williams
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    How much are these two projectors? I'm seriously considering the VW11 which I can get for £3,800.

    Isn't the SIM2 much more expensive?
     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The list price of HT200 and VPL11 is similar. You can of course get better discounts on the Sony....

    Gordon
     
  14. Guest

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    Ive gotta say that I firmly dissagree that the sim ht200dm`s colours are ina different league from the Sony,On the demo I had between the pair of them,there wasnt much in it,thats why I opted for the Sony-there was also a heck of a price difference.
    But I cannot argue with you Gordon if you are comparing both after an ISF calibration.(even then,would it justify the extra dosh?..uuuummm?).
    The thing I have found with the Sony so far is,that with good material it REALLY shines but its unforgiving of mediocre sky and terrestrial pictures-sometimes looking quite shoddy.
    Plus the drc progressive mode seems better on static images and test cards than the drc x4 .
    Its also interesting to note that Bill Cushman the american reviewer of Widescreen Review bought one immediately after his review of the 11ht-when I guess hes seen every projector thats out there!!(he did not buy a sim ht200dm OR the new sharp which was reviewed in the same edition of the mag(so I guess he saw it!).
    The Sony is also hidef compatible(is the dm?) and has a 1368 x 768 panel-so has the potential at least to yield better pictures.
    The sims panel is now been overtaken by a few in terms of res.capability.
    I will be interested to see the reviews on the new Barco dlp and processor(11 grands worth!!!!!) due soon.(do you know anything about this?)
    Doug
     
  15. Chris Frost

    Chris Frost
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    Doug, Everyone has a different perception of what makes good colour. The Sim2 DLPs do have exceptionaly accurate colour straight out of the box. The Sony may or may not be able to splash more colour onto the screen, but that doesn't equal better colour accuracy.

    I'm suprised you were unable to see much of a difference in the colour accuracy between the Sony and the Sim products. Maybe you were looking for something different or the Sim may not have been set correctly?

    Regards
     
  16. Guest

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    Chris,
    You are quite right that people have different perceptions of colour and that the whole viewing experience is subjective,but I have to laugh when someone says that the projector that they might favour-is not setup properly.
    In terms of portraying an accurate colour,the Sony is as capable-if not more so-of being setup "correctly" as the Sim200dm.
    I think you are confusing the average lcd projector-which can have a tendancy in skin tones to lean towards green or red with the Sony which is engineered for Home Cinema as opposed to business projectors that are given fancy names and touted in the marketplace as for home cinema.
    In fact,lcds are renowned for vibrant colours whereas dlp`s-certainly the early ones-are not.
    My view is that the colours on the Sony are very naturalistic(probably better still once ISF calibrated)and unlike the normal lcd.
    Both projectors I demoed were out of the box,and both capable of looking a lot better-out of the box there was nothing in it-and if the sim200dm was not "set-up correctly"-then nor was the Sony!!
    Certainly a couple of years ago I demoed both the 10ht and the sim200.The sim200 edged it on black level.
    With the 11ht and the sim200dm the gap had closed to be almost negligable.
    (The deciding factors for me were the difference of a grand-the Sony being a grand cheaper-,the 1368 x 768 panel(Im going the h.t.p.c.route), and the great reviews.It also has a great scaler and deinterlacer).
    If the sim200dm had been 4 grand,I may have been tempted-but not at 5 and a half grand.
    Having said this,the Sony is recognised as probably the best lcd projector you can buy,whereas the sim200dm is dlp..chalk and cheese?
    But is the sim200dm the best dlp you can buy?....hhhmmm?..well...

    Its worth mentioning that the sim200dm is not particularly well thought of in the states where a lot more go the h.t.p.c. route and want projectors capable of higher native resolutions and more capable with hdtv.
    In fact I read a thread recently where the majority of people that contributed to the thread rated a calibrated Nec lt150 in preference to the Yamaha and the Seleco.In another thread,people asked what they thought was the best dlp projector mainly mentioned three models-the sharp 9000,the Yamaha and the Nec.
    Maybe there all wrong and havent seen a properly calibrated sim200dm?? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
    Doug
     
  17. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    My comment was based on the fact that standards have been set down for the primary colours in display replay chains.

    To replay colours accurately in NTSC. PAL, ntsc, hdtv, smpte or EBU properly the co-ordinates of Red, Green and Blue must be capable of replaying all the colours within the gammut afforded of those specs. The Sony is woefully lacking in this regard as far as I can see. Red is not close to red. I played a clip for a client and he was marvelling at how orange the strips were on the characters in the film.....they were supposed to be red!

    This is after calibration. The SIMS have the potential to portray the gammut of colour more accurately than the Sony either before or after calibration. The problem with the Sony projectors is to do with their choice of colour primaries. Correct calibration makes it more acceptable, not correct.

    I care not whether AVSreaders or reviewers from the US think things good or bad. You should always make up your own mind as you obviously have. It would also be wrong to assume that because a product is reviewed in a magazine all reviewers had seen it. Particularily in USA where reviewers are not in same state, let alone city...... The HT200DM is definately not the best single chip DLP. It is still worth consideration. You seem to be playing the spec game still. Read the reviews of the Event and the HT250 (HIDef comapatible) and whether it was better received than the HT200dm......Specs are, more often than not, irrelevant.

    They are both good in the areas they have been designed to excell at. The choice is which you feel more comfortable with. I like them both but could not live with either.

    I look forward to the HT300 and the Barco too. Once I've seen them for myself I'll make up my mind,,,,,

    Gordon
    Gordon
     
  18. Guest

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    Gordon,
    Im puzzled,as I type this reply I have just watched a red car go across the screen-and it was bright red-not orange.
    I respect the fact you have calibrated sonys before-but this is a sweeping statement!
    You know as well as I,that different source material yields different results,I watched stuart Little on dvd the weekend and there is plenty of red in that-and the reds were red!
    I think my picture can still be improved and I aint seeing orange.
    Has anyone else experienced this?
    ..The point I was trying to make was that the viewing experience is a subjective one-there are many factors that come into play-for me the choice was the Sony-that is not to say the seleco 200dm is really worse-just that it was not right for me.
    I know the Sony has its faults,(dont they all)-but its top of the lcd tree at the moment.The seleco is certainly not at the top of the dlp tree-and I must say that the raving reviews -especially in h.c.c.have been rather over the top(as was the original review for the 10ht!).
    I still maintain there was a gnats between both projectors-and I remember well my comparison of both there predecessors.
    I feel for black level now the sony equals the sim200dm,it pips it for brightness,it betters it on resolution available,its better value-and colour wise I honestly couldnt see anything in it.
    In the Sims favour I would say it displayed a slightly clearer picture close up-but the sony seemed better with fine detail.
    I would say that the SIM is probably better with sky and terrestrial because of the nature of its picture-im guessing here-whereas the Sony will be better on dvd.
    I mentioned the yanks purely because they have more choices than we at the moment and are certainly more into the p.c. and hidef side of things,so maybe Bill Cushman gave it sucha glowing review because he had the opportunity to get the best out of it-whereas us in the hidef starved u.k.-cannot!
    I think part of the reason we like the sim200/dm so much is that they were almost the first of their kind in the u.k.-they looked great(if you like that look-personally I DONT..)
    But its down to personal choice,I think the Sony at 1368 x 768 after calibration will not be bettered by the Sim200dm at 848.
    I might be wrong-and even if I am-theres still nothing in it,they are both very good products thats for sure!
    Doug
     
  19. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Doug: Don't be puzzled. Light has a spectrum of colours. There are many tones of Red, green and blue. That is why standards were set for the correct type of red, green and blue for recording and playback of video images.

    It is perfectly feasible to not use the standard colours. Most manufacturers don't so they can achieve higher light output figures or make their images appear more pleasing in other respects. SIM2 chose the colour accuracy route and lower light output. Sony chose non accuracy and light output. If you don't see any difference in side by side comparisons then that's OK. I do, side by side or not. This is much easier to explain with a daigram and some DVD's.

    I would also say that the VPL11 has better de-interlacing of both video and film based material. It is also brighter and quieter.

    We both agree though that they should both be auditioned.
     
  20. Guest

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    Gordon,
    It may not have come across as such,but I understand there are many colours in the spectrum-and many different shades of red.
    But you implied the Sony could not produce a true red-i.e.produced orange instead of?
    You did not say that the Sony`s range of shades of red were not as comprehensive as the Sims..
    I cannot argue with that as I do not know,but then have you compared the Sim and the Sony with hidef material?..which fares better? It is touted by our american friends that the Sony wins this comparison quite comfortably.
    Did you perform your calibation then view via p.c.at 1368 x 768?
    I would guess that this in itself will improve the colours.
    I would also guess that watching a dvd via progressive component involves more scaling with the Sony than with the Sim.
    So is this a fair comparison?
    Doug:rolleyes:
     
  21. Chris Frost

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    You may not have noticed, but I no longer work for Owl, so I have no axe to grind for the Seleco/Sim2 products.

    If I make a specific statement about the colour accuracy of two projectors it is from personal experience of both products. I was involved in running the single lens projector demo at the "Event" last summer so had ample opportunity to confirm my own impressions of the Sony 10 vs. Sim200dm. Many of the other home cinema enthusiasts seemed to agree that the Sim2 products produced colours that are more accurate too. Were you there?

    I always try to be fair and subjective when commenting on projectors. Read through my previous posts. You'll find that I am happy to recommend a competitor’s product if it better suits the needs of that particular enquiry.

    Regards
     
  22. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    What I am saying is that the Sony is incapable of replaying the gammut of colours afforded of the replay standards in comparison to a SIM2HT200. The piece of material that I was watching when the client made his comment showed that when trying to replay this particular bit of film the Sony portrayed the cheerleaders shirts as Orangey with a hint of red rather than the more saturated red I know that most CRT's and the SIM2 are capable of. Sony's do red...just look at that sky active logo or put up a colour bar chart. On the colour bar chart though you will see that the red is actually orangey a bit. the skewed nature of the Sony's primary colours just means that it has trouble with some things. On a film such as above you may never know it isn't right of course.

    I have never played HiDef back through a Sony. The Sony will still not be capable of colour accuracy in this department but may look better probably due to its higher pixel count. I've seen an HT200 being fed 1080i and it was great apart from the interlace artifacts.

    Really Doug they are both great units. Each with their own compromises. I could live with neither but that shouldn't stop folk looking at both.

    Gordon
     
  23. Guest

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    Chris,
    I was not alluding to the fact you used to work at Owl influencing your opinion.I meant that generally if someone has a preference for a product-i.e.prefers Sim product to Sony-then they have already -to an extent made up there own mind.
    But my apologies if I indirectly offended you!
    I respect both yours and Gordons opinions-when I ask questions I am coming at it from an angle of..why and how?I love projectors and want to know as much as possible about them-especially one I own!
    So I do not dispute what you guys are saying,I just want to know how you have come to the conclusions.
    Also my knowledge of projectors is not as good as yours,so I am learning as I go.
    I want to get the best out of the 11ht else I do it an injustice almost-but because its a new product-via the computer route- not much is known.
    So Im chomping at the bit to get a calibration-.Gordon?..HOW MUCH IS IT!!
    Its just a minefield in terms of feedback about a products quality these days-Bill Cushman thinks its the greatest thing hes ever seen-Gordon didnt seem too impressed..
    I know its ultimately my view that counts of my own projector but now Im feeling a little down and watching the screen for Gordons oranges(ooh-aah missus..).
    But as I say,I respect your views -thats why Im here typing this!
    Dismall Doug.:(
     
  24. Chris Frost

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    Don't be dismal, Doug. I know how passionately you feel about your projector. You've chosen it because YOU like the picture, which is exactly what Gordon, myself and certain other professional contributors have always advocated: Judge for yourself.

    I was pleased to read your comment about wanting to learn. That’s exactly why I participate in this forum, to pass on the knowledge I have.

    You raise a good point about explaining why projectors show certain traits. Sometimes our posts do lack full explanations, but that is simply because of the time it takes to write each reply. However, if you ever want to know why we've made a particular comment, then simply ask us to explain in more detail.

    I'll close by offering a word of comfort about orangey reds. I'm going to use an extreme example, and you'll need to suspend logic for a moment, but all will become clear...

    Imagine you had never seen a banana before. No one told you what colour bananas should be; you've never even seen a picture of one. Now imagine that the first time you see a banana is when it appeared in one of your movies, and for some bizarre reason the special effects dept in Hollywood decided to make bananas look blue. Everything else is the same colour as you would expect in real life, but in this film, all bananas appear to be blue.

    Without reference to what colour bananas really are, you would believe that all bananas are blue. If anybody asked you "What colour are bananas?" You would say blue. Wouldn't you?

    It's the same with colours in a film. Unless you've seen that particular film on a projector that produces colours more accurately, you will assume that the colours your projector produces are what the director saw when he shot the movie. Even then, there is no guarantee of colour fidelity. Certain film stock is more sensitive to particular colours (ever wondered why the sea doesn't look quite as blue in real life as it did in the brochure) and ambient lighting can affect our perception of colour too. If you are happy with the picture you’ve got, then forget about splitting hairs and just go enjoy a movie. :)

    Regards
     
  25. Guest

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    Thanks Chris,
    I Have actually noticed some jagged lines on straight lines on the Sony with t.v.and sattelite pictures-not always-but on some material(dont seem to get it with dvd though)-could it be a faulty unit or is this a normal trait of the deinterlacing being performed?

    Doug not so dismal as before.:confused:
     
  26. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Doug:

    I don't like posting pricing etc on the web site. This isn't because I change it depending on who you are. I have a fixed rate price list that I email to everyone who ask for it.

    The VPL11 I measured didn't tie in with what I was seeing on the screen. My measured settings were preferable to the factory, low, temp setting but did not seem correct. I went back to see the client and did final touch up by eye. If I get a chance I'll post before and after pics on my web site sometime before Tuesday. I'll let folk know here if I managed.

    I too am always learning, I hope!

    Have fun,

    Gordon
     
  27. Guest

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    Gordon,
    Please e-mail price list to me-as I am interested.

    I have noticed that the custom 1 and 2 settings seem to have better whites,whereas the high has pinker flesh tones and the low is supposed to be near 6500k ?(skin tones look a bit brown..).
    Im assuming the aim is to use custom 1 merged with low?

    What is the process for your calibrations(..no need to give away trade secrets here..)-is it to establish an accurate greyscale by charting all ire`s?..do you tweak gamma ?..do you use a colour anaylser...etc..etc..
    Doug
     
  28. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Doug:

    If you go to my web site you can see how I do it. I use a colour analyser. Mine can be configured with custom target files to match different projectors. I don't have accurate ones for VPL11 yet. I tried doing aone with VPL10
     
  29. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Doug:

    If you go to my web site you can see how I do it. I use a colour analyser. Mine can be configured with custom target files to match different projectors. I don't have accurate ones for VPL11 yet. I tried doing one with VPL10 target files but the end result didn't look right to me...so I'm sure the colour primaries may have changed with the 11 either that or the different lamp is causing the problems. Hope my analyser supplier will be able to give accurate file soon. In the meantime I completed the first 11 by eye.

    I tried about 30 minutes ago to post the new pictures and site update to my site but the server is being re-vonfigured, This will have to wait for a few days I think.

    I try to get as close to D65 over as large a spread from 10ire to 100ire as possible. I have considered playing with the service, service menu gammut settings. I would need a unit for about two or three days to see if there would be any great benefit in doing this and the length of time it would take to measure and carry out would likely make it too expensive for folk to pay for.

    There is no MAGIC to doing greyscale calibration.

    I'll mail price list when I get a second.

    Gordon
     

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