Which CRT for £5k?

Discussion in 'Projectors, Screens & Video Processors' started by laserguy1138, Jun 4, 2002.

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  1. laserguy1138

    laserguy1138
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    Hi all,
    I am looking at buying a projector and have up to £5k to spend, I have looked at a couple of DLP ones and didn't get on with them (rainbows) and pixel death on LCD models puts me off these. Which models are in my budget and is it best to buy new or a recon? I figure I should get more for my pound recon but what are the caveats? I am new to this so be gentle. ;)

    Guy
     
  2. garmtz

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    I would buy a second hand/demo/refurbished CRT, like a BarcoData/Graphics 801.

    Be wary of tube wear and burn-in. It's best to look into the lenzes onto the CRT face and look for burnt-in logos or discoloration. It's even better to look for this with the lenzes removed. Find a seller or shop that knows what they are talking about.

    Do keep in mind that CRT projectors are heavy bulky beast and take some time to get them perfectly aligned/focussed/converged.
     
  3. nfordenfield

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    You can buy my BG801s for £5k, i'll even throw in my QS Pro and DVD player!?!

    Seriously, go for a 801 or even the 808 series, still enough left over for the New scaler from FE - CS1.

    Regards


    Nathan
     
  4. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    I was kind of hoping some others would jump in first here. But here goes

    First off, I have a commercial interest in this area as I buy, sell and refurbish new and used CRT projectors

    CRT as I'm sure you will have read from the various forums, still offers the potential to deliver the most filmic type image. But it should not be regarded as a ready to go box like a lamped projector. CRT machines have to be properly installed (they are heavy) and then aligned and made colour accurate.

    In order to achieve this fantastic film like picture you will need to consider what it going to be fed to the projector by means of a signal. Video, which was invented many years ago, was not intended to be blown up to the sizes that we see in the average home cinema. Also the average CRT projector was intended more for use with computer resolutions rather than low-resolution video.
    So in order to get the best out of your projector it is worthwhile increasing the video resolution up to some sort of computer resolution. The most basic form is to “line double” which is nearly the same as VGA, but to get the very best from a CRT projector the video should be scaled to the “ideal” resolution of the projector. (Often called, sweet spot or golden scan). This is the point where the projector is operating with the scan lines that make up the picture just visible and not quite over lapping.

    Line doublers, line triplers and scallers are available at varying quality and similar varying costs (though not always in the direction it should be ;-) )

    So when considering a CRT projector you must also think about how the image will be presented to the PJ. This should affect you purchase. Spending all your money just on the Projector and feeding it composite video will be a waste.

    Projectors can be grouped fairly easily.
    (Note the figures below are my experience of the ideal resolution based on a 16x9 screens with the vertical height reduced to fill the screen)

    7” electrostatic focus tubes.
    Work best line doubled or scaled to 800x600
    Sony D50, Barco D701, D708 are typical machines
    The Barco Cine 7 is still in production.
    Expect to pay £3 – 4000 for a really good machine


    8” electrostatic focus tubes.
    Manufacture of these types of projectors were discontinued about 6 years ago
    The tube size is misleading because it was square as opposed to rectangular so was nearly the same size as a modern 7”
    Again these worked best at doubled or 800x600
    Sony 127* and Barco 801 were good examples.
    These go for a bout £1000 now in good shape


    Electromagnetic Focus tubes offer a much sharper way of controlling the size of the spot that is used to make up the image. These projectors therefore have a much higher resolution.

    8” Electromagnetic.
    Work best line tripled or at resolutions of 1024 x720 (sometimes 960 is possible)
    Examples are Sony G70, Barco 808 and Electrohome 7*00 / 8*00 series
    £4-5000 will get you a very good projector.

    9” Electromagnetic
    Now we move to the top
    These need very careful set up and have enormous potential for stunning images.
    A scaler is a must and 1280x960 should be a good start.
    Sony G90 and Barco 1209 were considered the best.
    These are big buggers and not every home has room for one – between £5-7000

    There are of course many other types of projectors and even differing size tubes but the above should give a good guide of their capabilities.

    The prices above are only a guide. CRT projectors are very complicated pieces of equipment. On the whole they are well put together and a good machine will last for many years. If you do decide to buy a CRT see it working and be sure of what you are getting..
     
  5. MATT JENNER

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    i just bought the ELLIEXS3000, from screens uk, the nearest rival projector is 18000.00, it has a built in line tripler, full digital convergance, and the colours and contrast raio etc are better than any barco or sony crt i saw,
    all this for 5.5 k they charge 500.00 depending where you live to install it, i live on the south coast so from nottigham it is a fair way, the engineer was great, knew his stuff, no b/s!1said what the benifits were and was there to ask any questions, he was happy to go through all the settings and would not leave until i was 100% satisfied.
     
  6. MATT JENNER

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    i have to admit i did get a deal, with screens uk, it was when they first came out,
    the XS3000 is currently 5995 plus 500 for fitting, they also do the xs2000 for 3995 which is just as good a picture etc, it has a line doubler , and a good contrast ratio
     
  7. Couch Potato

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    But were they turned on;)

    There are a lot of very knowledgeable people here who would disagree, not to mention the ones who were at "The Event" last year.

    Sweeping statements like this do not really help anybody.

    Steve
     
  8. MATT JENNER

    MATT JENNER
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    er i did see the other barco and sony crt, for the money the ellie was far superior!!!!
     
  9. MATT JENNER

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    besides what even are you refering to >
     
  10. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    Which Barco and Sony models precisely and where did you you see them?

    If you are going to make statements like this please qualify them.

    Which lenses have you got with your Ellie?
     
  11. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    The Event would be the one I organised last year for forum members.....

    You can do a search of the forums to find out what was there. In fact, Spectre may even have kept the Event feedback forum here. Not sure....

    So you're saying the only projector you've seen better than an Ellie is a Barco cine8? I believe you, just a pity you never got to see a rival crt set up properly....

    Gordon
     
  12. MATT JENNER

    MATT JENNER
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    Yeah,

    i appreciate the comment, where could i find out the results or info on the event you setup ?
     
  13. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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  14. James McHugh

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    You pay your money, and you take your choice.
    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and therefore should be respected for it.
    At least Matthew Jenner has taken the trouble to look at all CRT's and has NOT made sweeping statements, unlike the people who are trying to shoot him down.
    This has become a closed forum, where if it's not Barco, it's not any good.
    So sorry lads, but you may as well put your brooms away, because no-one will EVER sweep Ellie under the carpet.:D :D :D
     
  15. Roland @ B4

    Roland @ B4
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    Jim
    I would suggest the sweeping statements are just the issue though.
    MATT JENNER was very detailed in which Ellie projector he saw and how much they were but no details at all on the comparison with the other projectors even when pressed
    He hasn't even replied to my questions - yet.

    Statements like
    "The nearest rival projector is 18000.00"

    "the colours and contrast raio etc are better than any barco or sony crt i saw"

    Are just a tad sweeping. But I appreciate these are only his views

    This is not a closed forum at all. I've just reread my post and 50% of the projectors I mentioned are not Barco. (Sorry none were Ellie).

    By the sounds of it M J did just what we all recommend, went and saw the projectors in action (He hasn't told us where or which ones they were, which is a shame but hey.)

    So Guy for your first post was that gentle enough yet?
     
  16. James McHugh

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    Anyone using this forum can read past posts, and see for themselves that everytime the name 'Ellie' is mentioned, the same people jump all over it. It's very predictable.
    The whole idea of this chatroom is that the professionals within the trade should offer IMPARTIAL advice, or else keep quiet. There's no point in knocking anything you have not seen.
    MJ is obviously very pleased with his purchase, and for him, Barco is not the be all and end all in projectors.
    OK, he has not specified which models and where, but does he need to justify his opinion ?
    We don't condemn Barco - we think they're very good machines, but we also have the faith that our product is very close for a fraction of the price. Is a name really worth extra thousands of pounds that could be spent elsewhere ?
    It's common knowledge that CRT is always best, but not everyone can afford to lay out £10K plus.
    It's also not fair to compare new machines with second-hand, but we recommend that people set themselves a budget, and demo everything they can at that price ticket.
     
  17. NickBull

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    The moral of the story is to look at as much as you can, withing your budget. Do not venture above budget or you may cause youself problems, and make a desision on what you think suits you best.

    Take your time, remember that first imporessions of a big screen are nearly always 'wow, that's great', sit down and watch it for a bit.

    Listen to advice, but in the end it's your choice, your money and you who will be living with it.

    Nick
     
  18. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Jim: Your post seems to suggest that those within the trade posting here are somehow against Ellie or feel that your xs3000 product is not good.

    From both Rolands and my replies (I think we're the only two industry insiders onthis thread...apart from you) to Matt's post I don't really see how you can come to this conclusion. I even said that I believed that Matt had never seen a crt better than his Ellie for under £18,000!

    Gordon
     
  19. Jeff

    Jeff
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    I have always thought that 80% of a CRT projectors picture quality is in the setup, which kind of makes comparisons a bit difficult. I don't think anyone here disputes that for the money the Elllies are very good value, however given the choice I would always go for a much higher quality second hand CRT especially if its installed and supported by someone like Roland.

    James,

    I have never seen an Ellie in action, maybe you could speak to Gordon about provideing an Ellie for Event 2. CRT projectors became very popular here after the last event due to seeing the Barco Cine 7 and Cinemax in action.

    Jeff
     
  20. MATT JENNER

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    Oh dear have i stirred up a poop storm,

    the projectors i looked at were as follows

    BARCO cine 7 nice projector but i did not like the size or piture quality

    barco cine 8 - nice but a grey thing with lights on a white cieling looked awful and the price was too high, i did not think the picture was excellent although i take gordons point it could have not been set up correctly.

    seleco - svd500 - again it as ugly looking and would have stood out like a sore thumb in a 12x13 room, picture quality wasn't in my opinion up to the ellie3000

    SONY - I CANNOT REMEBER THE NUMBER it was an enxcellent projector but again was big and and woulod not look good in a family home, the picture quality was top notch, but so was the price

    sim2000/ 3000 - it seems all electric shops that touch on home cinema all seem to push these, i they are fine in a room sized 24 by 14, where you sit back and cannot see the pixels, i looked at the sim 3000hr which gave you a long throw over a short distance, from 10 feet away you could see the pixes and the rainbow effect, and the colours were blurred, even at the odeon leicester square which is a digital projector, when watching attack of the clones, last week, there were scenes where all the colours blurred out and it seemed very soft.
    and the price of the above projectors were from 5k up to 8500 from sevenoaks hifi.

    i had the sony cineza hs1 - it was abolutly crap, i payed 2000.00
    in 2 weeks 15 pixels had dropped out, and sitting only 10-11 feet away they were as clear as anything, and being that ditance it would not fill a 7 ft screen,
    i took it back and sevenokaes were really apologetic we got down another one and set it up and we counted within 5 mins of it warming up 22 pixel drop outs, and patches of dirt on the chip.

    I know people at sevenokes and they like many of the retailers now are pushing dlp and lcd cos once sold that is it, whereas with crt there is alot more after sales service, and most comanies do not want that hassel, they want a quick turnover of moving goods,

    but IN MY OPINION crt has plenty of years left in it, i have looked at alot more in partucarly barco had one and seleco had one at the sound and vison show i went to, they were great projecotrs but so was the prices, where as the ELLIE 3000 is a great performa the picture quality is superb, and i was told from an engineer who used to work installing barco and seleco crt's the nearest rival to come any closer would be 18k.and no he did not work for screensuk!!!!!!

    I have found screens uk to offer excellent service and the system is tremendous value for money, i think they are too cheap for what they offer.

    It is interesting alot said i should have checked out the event, before making sweeping statements, well i did look at georges page and there was no Ellie demonstrated,

    Hopefully now you lot will calm down


    hee hee

    Matt Jenner
     
  21. MATT JENNER

    MATT JENNER
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    ps
    message to george,

    thans for the advice on the on the compostie lead and svhs lead it worked a treat.
     
  22. Jeff

    Jeff
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    Whos george? :confused:
     
  23. MATT JENNER

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    oops i always thought i was going dyslexic, ko

    i meant gordon

    hey it was past midnight !!!!
     
  24. Cool-hand

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    Sorry to butt in but can I ask, do the Ellie pj have plastic lenses or glass. Would this make any picture difference (long term or short)?
    Also the same question for the Barco's.

    How long do lamps last? Are they easy to replace? Are they expensive/in what region of £4.50 £45 £145 £245 each?
     
  25. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Matt: Glad you liked your Ellie. You certainly did your homework....
    Sony don't make crt's anymore so you wouldn't have been able to buy a new D50 anyway. As for the other contenders. If the shop selling a Cine8 were unable to make a drop dead amazing pic with it then you shouldn't be buying from them anyway! (in fact you have to wonder why BARCO are supplying them. Same for the others.

    Oh and your ex barco installer chap has obviously never heard of Christie Digital, makers of one of the more popular ranges of crt's still in existence (although now sold under licence by a company called VDC)

    Gordon
     
  26. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Snowman....No lamps in CRT projectors. How long a tube lasts depends on how you use it and how the thing is set up. 100hrs to over 10,000hrs.....

    Cost depends on models. £600-£1600 each...

    Gordon
     
  27. Cool-hand

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    Is there any way of proving the run time of pj's? Do any models have clocks? Can commercial sellers be trusted when they say 'only 500hrs use'?

    Would it be better in the long run to play it safe and buy new....?
     
  28. Gordon @ Convergent AV

    Gordon @ Convergent AV
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    Some projectors have run times for tubes, some for chassis. These can be reset just like the counters on LCD/DLP units.

    However, with a CRT you can usually work out life left by physically inspecting the tube faces. Much more sensible anyway as I've already stated that you can trash a tube very quickly if you want....

    Gordon
     
  29. MATT JENNER

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    My Ellies come with DELTA TAC 4 LENSES, the glass lenses are available as an option,
    the benefit as far as i know of glass lenses is it cuts the down the glare of the blue that you sometime get around bright obejects, andit gives you greater picture clarity.
    I will be honest thugh you are better speaking to Jim or Gordon as they are the experts.

    regards

    Matt:eek:
     
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