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Where to upgrade next for a warmer sound?

Discussion in 'Hi-Fi Stereo Systems & Separates' started by JES, Jul 1, 2005.

  1. JES

    JES
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    Hi fellow Audion enthusiasts,

    Recently my listening time with my system pretty much boils down to just audio, where previously it was about 50/50. Having this in mind, I've come to the conclusion that I'm not that happy with the CD replay of my system. :suicide:

    What I'd like to know is, with a budget of around £1000, where should I upgrade? Should I buy a dedicated CD player (which options)? Should I buy a decent DAC to plug to my DVD player? What else?

    Basically I'm dissatisfied with the overall "coldness" of the sound, I like the clarity but most of the times it lacks that enveloping quality that makes you really like to listen to music, bringing shills to your spine. :(

    You can see my system below, but basically I have an Arcam DV79 connected through the Coaxial port to the AV32R, which is connected to a Bryston 3B feeding a pair of PMC's FB1. When I bought the DV79 I thought it had a good reputation of a decent CD playback, but my experience says otherwise (at least to my tastes). The culprit can be something else, also.

    Well, let me know you opinions.

    Thanks in advance,

    Regards,

    JES
     
  2. cameronl

    cameronl
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    hi there, you could try using rca plugs from the dv79 into your tag which will give a warm arcam type of sound (instead of the coxial which will give a typical tag sound).

    I personalu use a HTTPC as my source with a good sound card (RME 9632)and love it!

    CaM




     
  3. alexs2

    alexs2
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    The overall balance of your system would tend towards a clinical sound,and I do know what you mean,as my own system had in parts anyway,a tendency towards the same.

    I found my previous Sp AV32R could sound pretty "soulless" and uninvolving,and that fiddling with cables etc provided some improvement,and adding an upsampler into the CD chain certainly improved matters,but the biggest single upgrade(if expensive) was changing to a DP version of the AV32R,which is superior in every respect.

    Brystons,like Krells,can sound a bit on the cold side,and that may well have some effect on the overall sound,and probably the simplest and cheapest thing you can do to alter the tonal balance is to try some different interconnects,but do be sure to try before you buy.


    Another thing to do is to try using your DVD player's internal DACs,and the TAG's analogue bypass to see if that has any effect,and if it does go some way towards the sound you're after,then considering an external DAC may be worthwhile.
     
  4. gizlaroc

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    I find the Tag stuff far too harsh sounding to enjoy music on, Ok for films but not music, I actually took out an AV32 that I was using as a stop gap and put in an old Arcam Alpha 7 stereo amp as I just couldn't live with the Tag sound.

    Nothing much wrong with your DVD player, but I had an Arcam DV89 for about a 3 months and then had a go with a Meridian 500 transport and wow! the difference was unreal, alot smoother, but more detail, alot more open and when you went back to the Arcam the soundstage just collapsed.
    I actually ended up selling the DV89 and buying a Meridian 598dp, as this would give me DVD and excellent red book cd as well as DVD-A. However the dvd side was terrible, great sound but awful picture, so I sold it and got a 500MKII cd transport and a Philips 963 for dvd duties.

    I think a new transport will improve the sound but it is the Tag that is giving you the real problem if you want a warmer sound.
    How important is film stuff? could you not sell the BP192 and buy either a processor that can do music, or a decent stereo amp and a processor, or even a basic tag for film duties? just run the front pre outs of the processor into the stereo amp.
     
  5. GaryG

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    If this DAC is still for sale:


    Audio Synthesis
    DAX DECADE Price: £850

    RRP: £3200


    Description
    The name Audio Synthesis has become synonymous with achieving the highest quality sound from digital sources. To mark our tenth anniversary we have pulled out all the stops to create what we regard is our Masterpiece. The result is quite simply the finest converter ever produced by Audio Synthesis. Built in digital volume control allows direct connection to any power/integrated amplifier.

    Contact: Roger
    Seller: Private seller
    Telephone: 07787 173048
    Telephone:

    Email: roger@electrotek.fsnet.co.uk

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    UK


    Advert No: 56144
    Date placed: 25/06/2005

    I would suggest you check it out, it's an order of magnitude better than the Tag.
     
  6. JES

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    Tried it now Cam. Had a spare RCA cable lying around (ok, it's not the best quality, but it was just a test - it's a Bainbridge / Profigold cable). The sound didn't improve at all, and to be fair I think it lost a little on the soundstage as well as clarity - the music sounded "muffled" for lack of a better term.

    Yep, this is the problem. I could have waited for a DP at the time I bought the SP, but at that time it was too expensive for my wallet (even the SP was a stretch). And I knew that Tag is "harsh" and "clinical" sounding, like you so well put, but I decided to take the plunge without having a decent listen to a Tag based system. Big mistake, but we live and learn, right :rolleyes:

    Do you have any recommendations? I'm asking because I don't know that many stores here in Portugal that let you try out the cables at home. :thumbsdow

    OK, like I said to Cam above tried it now. I connected the analogue outputs on the Arcam to the AUX outputs on the Tag. The sound wasn't that good, but I don't know what to blame - the Arcam or the cable used (probably this one).

    Unfortunately I'm finding the same thing is starting to happen to me. I love the Tag on movies, the best thing I've heard ever (FWIW I haven't tried or listened to many mid/high end systems, so I'm basing my comparison on what little I've heard so far). But on music it's a different matter altogether.

    When I bought the Arcam I decided to buy a player that perfomed just as good on picture as in sound quality. At the time it was said to me that for the same price the Denon would probably be a little better on the picture, but the Arcam better on the sound department. So I went with it. And I'm happy with the picture and even the sound in movies. It's the CD playing part that's bothering me (and I'm not that picky or with great sensitive hearing). So if I trade my DVD, it should be for something with the same (or very close) picture quality, but with better sound. And I really don't know any...

    What do you recomend in all these options? I'm sorry to ask this, but with all the reading I've done here, I'm more confused then when I started. :suicide:

    Thank you all for your help so far! :thumbsup:
     
  7. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    I had a meridian 568.2 as my processor after a Lexicon DC2, and that was the first time I realised that the processor was probably the most important part of the system. I then sold the 568.2 to buy the highly reviewed Lexicon MC8, big mistake, excellent for films and although not bad for music still no where near as good as the Meridian. So I ended up trying quite alot of kit, including £10k worth of Tag processor (absolute sh|te!), and to cut a long story short I ended up back with a 568.2, so same processor and £2k out of pocket but happy again.
    The Meridian is still my favourite processor for films too, it take a while to get it right, but when you do it is phenomenal! And I don't think many people would argue with its music capabilities, very impressive.

    However, as GaryG has pointed out though, the Dax Decade, yes it is a dac, but it goes further than that, you can use it as a digital volume control, think of it as a pre amp that only takes digital ins. It really is stunning.
    I think that will be next next purchase for me, but I will have the front left/right channels of my meridian going into it (the meridian has digital outs for Meridian digital speakers so it is possible) so everything on the mains goes through it.

    As a good all round processor than can do music I can't recommend the 568.2 enough, I prefer it alot more to the G series, and you should be able to pick one up for about £1500 upwards, which is very cheap for what it is.
    This would completely change the sound of your system and give you what you are looking for, and you may find you only have to go a little over your £1k budget to get a Dax decade in as well and that would blow you away.
     
  8. JES

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    Thanks Gizlaroc and GaryG. I'll look up the DAX and the Meridian.

    Thanks again guys for the help and pointers. If anyone else has further input about this situation feel free to drop a line here. There's no such thing as too much information :)
     
  9. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    Where are you based?

    If you are anywhere near Norfolk you are more than welcome to have a listen to my system and bring your tag over so you can slot it in and hear the difference.
     
  10. JES

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    Hey thanks Man, appreciate it :) One problem though, I live a couple thousand miles north-west :D I live in Portugal for now (but am thinking of moving to Britain if the correct job offer appears).

    One question for you guys. Right now I have the chance of buying either a Theta Progeny DAC or a Naim CD5 for a very decent price (not both, I'm afraid). What would you suggest that would contribute more for the "warmness" of my sound?

    Thanks again for all the help! :thumbsup:
     
  11. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    I still think you need to try a different pre amp, and then add something like the dax decade that has volume control if you feel the need. The Tag is the thing that is causing your problems and you need to address that before spending money elsewhere.
     
  12. JES

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    OK, thanks. That'll be a little difficult though. For one I can't find that much 568.2, and the one's that I find are above £3000, which is too much for me. I'll probably have to stick with this kit for a while while I gather the money (which won't be that soon).

    Thanks again Gizlaroc,
     
  13. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    Yeah £3000 is too much, well I say too much, if I had to replace mine an I could only get one by paying £3k then I would as I still think it is the best all round processor this side of £5k.
    May be keep an eye out on the forum as they do crop up occasionaly, and I am sure a member would ship to Portuagal, shipping insured is around €200 but still worth it if you get it for say £1600.
    Time to try and have a listen to one somewhere! :)

    What price would you Tag get over there?
     
  14. JES

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    Yeah, it's a bit tough at the moment to get one. What I found though was plenty of 568 at good prices. Do you think this is a good investment (being able down the road, I believe, to upgrade it to the .2 version)?

    Yeah, I've been keeping an eye here. I don't any more sites so if you have any PM me, please. I would probably sell the Tag here in PT for around 1800Euros or something.

    Thanks again Gizlaroc,
     
  15. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    I wouldn't go for a Vanilla 568, too costly to upgrade and the 2.5 firmware on the .2 model is stunning, very similar to a G series but keeping a little more warmth.

    It would be a good idea to borrow the 568 though and have a listen, if you like that you can then track down a .2 at a good price, and if you don't you can cross it off the list.

    Say you got €1600 for the Tag, add the £1000 you were going to spend and you could get a 568.2, 500MKII transport for cd and a Philips 963SA for films, that is 3 upgrades for your money! :)
     
  16. dynamic turtle

    dynamic turtle
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    I'd run Co-ax into the AV32r for movies etc. and pipe the Arcam's RCA outputs into a quality valve pre-amp. Which one, will be for you to decide!

    I see absolutely no point in selling your Arcam, Tag, Bryston or PMC's, as they are all excellent components. The only "weak link" is the sometimes clinical/brittle sound of the AV32r with music. This could be addressed very simply with the addition of a valve pre.

    I'm sure you'll be able to demo something from the usual suspects (Unison, Copland, Audio Research etc.) in Portugal!

    DT
     
  17. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    Yeah that is another way to do it if you don't mind having to mess around with setting the levels for the fronts all the time. That would drive me nuts, I agree that it would give a better sound but but I do like to be able to turn on the TV and not mess at all.

    The Tag doesn't have a unity gain does it?
     
  18. JES

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    DT, Gizlaroc,

    Thanks for the suggestions. I'll start auditioning some items and see where my hears take me :) You've gave me a bunch of options to look for so I'll try and test them by categories so that I know what makes the biggest sound difference, so that I know where to spend my money better.
     
  19. BUGANNA

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    :thumbsup: dont waste your time with different cd/s - dacs etc

    the coldness is not from your digital playback,

    BUT through the amp + speakers

    buy a decent VALVE amp

    and some quality , sweet sounding speakers, like the EPOS ES11 or ES14s

    or SPENDORS


    u could buy both of these items, for £ 1,000

    and sell what u have already
     
  20. JES

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    Buganna,

    I believe you're quite right in what you wrote. From recent tests and auditions to other systems, I can certainly pinpoint the problem in my system. It's the speakers (the Bryston isn't that guilty, though it can play an important part on it - about 20-30% from what I gather). So if I can sell them here in Portugal (which is a bit difficult since PMC is almost unknown here - should have thought of this first) I'll probably get a bit more money which will let me buy better speakers. For now I'm thinking of auditioning the ProAc Studio 140 and the Sonus Faber Concerto Domus. If anyone else has more suggestions, shoot - keep in mind that my problem is that heavy metal music is not suited to that much speakers (with classical or slower music my PMCs are very, very good).

    Thanks,
     
  21. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    I have heard PMC speakers with warm amps and they sound fine, you really need to borrow an amp before you change your speakers, of course the spendors will sound smoother but given the right amplification the PMC can sound very sweet.
     
  22. BUGANNA

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    hmmm, good speakers for heavy metal ?

    if the sound of your PMCs are excellent, for softer music,

    then the problem is not the hi-fi, but the actual heavy metal music that is 'cold' ?

    if that is the case, than the best thing for you, may be to buy a EQUALISER ?

    so you can adjust the EQ yourself.......

    OR - you can use a professional studio VINYL HARMONIC REPRODUCER, that slightly softens the cd sound, by adding subtle vinyl type harmonics, which is what Studios use for cd mastering !!!!!

    these are very expensive, but we have some here in the studio...........there is also one company that make something called " Francinstein " that does the same thing, and nothing else, and costs £ 250

    if your interested, contact me, and I can find out if we have any we can sell you, if so, Id be happy to do a special price for you - IF you want it

    oh - I work in a recording studio, and am very used to all types of audio equipment

    for home use, and if u want a full bodied, un-cold sound, I recommend CLASS A amplifiers, Musical fidelity make some very good ones

    OR any decent valve amp

    OR try the Musical Fidelity " MISSING LINK " -

    DO NOT look at the ProAc speakers !

    These are quite cold sounding, as Proac speakers are very bright in the treble, and sound a bit unharmonised, they are not that very good, even though they look excellent and are expensive !

    I would prefer Epos, Spendor,

    or go for a floor standing KEF speaker, great warmer sound, can go very loud, and is nice to listen to

    and cheap from this uk discount mail order company;

    http://www.hyperfi.co.uk/
     
  23. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    I am pleased you put that, I don't like ProAc speakers at all as to me they give exactly the sound he is trying to get away from, definitely more so than the PMC speakers he has already.

    There is no getting away from the fact the Tag sounds like nails down a blackboard, if you put some acoustic music on you can get away with the sound but for anything else it is close to painful.

    I really don't see how Tag built up such a following on their processors, everyone I know with one who has a go with a half decent stereo amp or say a Meridian, Proceed, etc. etc. processor is always amazed at how much fuller and nicer they sound.
     
  24. BUGANNA

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    absolutely correct...........

    the more complex an amplifier is, the worse it will sound..........

    the best amps are usually nothing more than a signal, with gain added onto it......

    one reason I prefer Valve amps, as they are much purer in their amplification than anything else

    as for TAG, or whoever else builds such over the top components, well, they are merely selling you something expensive, which has no realy input from any of the really TALENTED designers............

    any company can hire an electronics designer, to build an amp, cd, etc, with 100s features, lots of power, lots of functions, but it doesnt mean it will sound any good, usually they dont

    the truth is, you could spend £ 100 on a really really good sounding amp, or spend £ 5,000 on a TAG type electronic nightmare, that has nothing to do with genuine hi fi

    High - Fidelity

    I think a lot of companies out there forget about this concept...........

    generally, you will find the simpler the design, the better the product..........
     
  25. alexs2

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    As generalisations go,this one does have it's basis in truth,but to put it in context,there are at least as many very complex amps that sound good,as there are very simple designs.

    No-one would argue that designs like the 47 Labs products,or many single ended triodes are anything less than sonically excellent,but likewise,many of the more complex high-end designs such as Krell,Levinson and Halcro,are no less superb in their own rights.

    The real point is that it comes down to having not only a good basic circuit design(no matter how simple or complex)and then good implimentation of that,plus use of good quality components.

    TAG processors,especially the single processor versions can sound hard and clinical on music material,and more so when partnered with similar sounding amps and speakers,and emphasizes the importance of choosing components to work with each other.

    There are also any number of poorly designed,nasty sounding valve amps out there(and I say that as the owner of many tubed amps over the years,including a set of 300B triodes now),which brings us back to good circuit design,and not necessarily complexity or simplicity....perhaps the best example would be the Audionote Ongaku...very simple in design,but very costly,and with many yrs of evolution and experimentation to reach the end result....against which you could put up many examples of poorly made,self destructing amps which did much to give valves a bad name.

    Your comments about the quality of the design and engineering of the TAGs,by the way,are somewhat at odds with most of those who've owned or used them,irrespective of whether or not you like the sound.

    Out of interest,which amps are used in your studio(s)?
     
  26. BUGANNA

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    good post...........

    however, it is unlikely, that a complex amp can sound as good as a simpler one....

    by good, I mean , purity............

    of course one could sacrifice some purity ( fidelity ) and replace it with dynamics, power, EQ emphasis, etc and this will sound good, to people who prefer this sound

    but in terms of high fidelity, simpler is better, in my opinion at least !

    the reason is, that the more components an electrical signal has to go through, the more " distorted / affected " the signal will be

    no matter how good the components used, less is always better...........

    so whilst a high end, KRELL, or TAG, might sound good

    it wont sound as good as a simpler design, designed by a talented designer............

    whatever amps are used in the studio, is irrelvant, as these are used for monitoring only

    the recording process is all done at pre-amp stages, so your mastered cd, will sound as good or as bad as the hi fi you have at home

    of course, badly mastered cds will sound poor anywhere, but not many good artists will let a poor master be used to produce the cds............
     
  27. gizlaroc

    gizlaroc
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    I think that is the point though, a more complex amp can sound better/nicer, maybe not as accurate but definitely better.
     
  28. alexs2

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    I think if you've heard a Krell or Levinson,pitted against an equivalent(by that it would include many of the better triode based PP or SET amps),then you may find that statement to be largely incorrect.

    There are equally talented solid state and tubed amp designers,and Dan D'Agostino,Nelson Pass,would be good examples of the former,with Kondo-san and Tim DePav' being examples of the latter.

    You may also wish to consider that most good SET amps have some of the worst distortion levels(albeit usually even order harmonics),and yet sound superb.

    The point is that it does come down to opinion,as you say,and some prefer the power that solid state amps can deliver,as opposed to the dynamics of a good SET design...I'm fortunate in having good Class A power amps(the virtues of which you've already mentioned),as well as much lower powered triode amps when I want....both have their good and bad points.

    I was asking what amps you use purely out of interest,so whilst it may be irrelevant in one respect,it wasnt what I was asking.

    Your point about poorly mastered CD's is true,but unfortunately at present,there seems to be an abundance of artists who are quite content to release poorly mastered or over EQ'd material for mass consumption.
    Thankfully,there are sufficient who still care about the quality of the end product.
     
  29. BUGANNA

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    we use SAMSON amps in the studio................we also have active monitors

    but a lot of the monitoring is done with h/phones, as they are much more analytical...........

    yes, real interesting that those persky SETs measure so poorly, yet sound great...........

    personally, I prefer push-pull valve amps, no such harmonical distortions, and no saturation of the transformer coils etc

    and much cheaper valves too........

    did u know that SETs were designed, at a period in time, when there was a shortage of Valves, and thus expensive, so designers made the SET to allow for a cheaper amp to be made and sold !


    ;)
     
  30. alexs2

    alexs2
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    Samson amps I know,as well as Crown and a few others,hence my interest(and certainly the older Crowns were some of the best measuring,and poorest sounding S/S amps you could find at one time).

    Designing a good SET is a real black art IMHO,from power supply,which is an intrinsic part of the output stage,right through to transfomer design,but even with PP amps,much of the cost of a good one is in the output transfomers.

    Venturing again into opinion,I love the sound from a good triode amp,even though 300B's arent cheap,and whilst my current ones havent got the power of the 100W valve monblocs I had before,the sound quality is way better.

    As to your last comment....funny how it's gone from being a cost cutting measure,to some of the most expensive designs(Kondo and Wavac) ever sold....funny old world!
     

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